Transfer of LNER HST 125s to East Midlands Railway (EMR)

[WesternLancer]

The blue pullman HST does have two catering vehicles - one of which has been converted to use the whole vehicle as a kitchen as I understand it.

HST catering vehicles are not normal loco-hauled stock, so of limited interest to preservationists. Decades ago 12 redundant HST catering vehicles were converted to loco-hauled stock, which requires a number of changes. There are also several in the Royal train fleet. If any group was determined to do so now it would be possible with the right skills, but not sure that there's the demand.

The loco hauled conversions for GC/XC/FGW back in the 2000s were all from open coaches - there were no buffets converted.

Thanks for those details. Ref the Blue Pullman I'd just seen some youtube run by films where it seemed to have only one carriage with the catering vehicle window pattern, hence my assumption. Interesting to read the further info.

HamworthyGoods said:
They were TRSBs from old XC sets.

Thanks

 

[Merle Haggard]

These photos may be of interest.
I have, somewhere (!) an interior of one of the ex GW TRFBs before refurbishment, but the photo of 40204 (5/9/19) shows, I think, that the GW seats were retained but with a piece of blue material over the embossed GWR. The photo of ex GC 41207 shows what I mean about being similar to the GW style.

 

[DB]

These photos may be of interest.
I have, somewhere (!) an interior of one of the ex GW TRFBs before refurbishment, but the photo of 41207 (5/9/19) shows, I think, that the GW seats were retained but with a piece of blue material over the embossed GWR. The photo of ex GC41207 shows what I mean about being similar to the GW style.

In the interim they had a piece of blue material over the GWR, but after refurbishment it's a piece of blue leather which says' 'First Class' on it - this section (and the previous green one which said GWR) is actually stitched on. The leather strip on the back of the headrest which was also embossed with the GWR lettering has been replaced by a plain blue strip (visible in your photo aove). It therefore appearst that at least the headrest section of the seat has been re-covered. The grab handles have also changed from green to blue, and carpets / table tops replaced or re-covered.

Thanks for those details. Ref the Blue Pullman I'd just seen some youtube run by films where it seemed to have only one carriage with the catering vehicle window pattern, hence my assumption. Interesting to read the further info.


Thanks

The second catering vehicle was left behind when the set first went to Crewe as it wasn't finished - I believe that's why it went back again a few weeks later.

 

[WesternLancer]

These photos may be of interest.
I have, somewhere (!) an interior of one of the ex GW TRFBs before refurbishment, but the photo of 41207 (5/9/19) shows, I think, that the GW seats were retained but with a piece of blue material over the embossed GWR. The photo of ex GC41207 shows what I mean about being similar to the GW style.




View attachment 86616View attachment 86617

Thanks for pics - those seats do look shockingly uncomfortable. So glad they came up with something so much better for the IEP Hitachi trains....

 

[DB]

Thanks for pics - those seats do look shockingly uncomfortable. So glad they came up with something so much better for the IEP Hitachi trains....

That GWR first-class interior is probably the best first-class interior on any train in recent decades. I guess those who used them are likely to have found the IEPs rather a big step down!

 

[fgwrich]

Thanks for those details. Ref the Blue Pullman I'd just seen some youtube run by films where it seemed to have only one carriage with the catering vehicle window pattern, hence my assumption. Interesting to read the further info.


Thanks

Of the two TRFBs for the Blue Pullman, 40801 remains a Buffet type vehicle for it's First Class passengers, and has kept the very smart FGW designed Buffet Counter (First Class Passengers on the BP have a Buffet Service Only), while 40802 has been totally gutted out and rebuilt as a full kitchen vehicle (Now designated Mk3 TK). Understandably, this has taken longer for it to be completed but will now be able to cater for a lot more diners than previously, with output from the kitchen now possible at both ends. Picking up 802 isn't the main reason why the set has gone back to Eastleigh (general fixes / snagging) though it will make it a lot easier.

LSL also have 40804 & 808 but these are for other uses.

Mk3 TK 40802 Eastleigh Works 16th October 2020

These photos may be of interest.
I have, somewhere (!) an interior of one of the ex GW TRFBs before refurbishment, but the photo of 41207 (5/9/19) shows, I think, that the GW seats were retained but with a piece of blue material over the embossed GWR. The photo of ex GC41207 shows what I mean about being similar to the GW style.




View attachment 86616View attachment 86617

Indeed, the choice of bringing up the ex GC TF's to almost GWR Standard was somewhat surprising. Normally you tend to find operators trying to reverse engineer the quality downwards. In a way, it's a shame that the rest of the EMT fleet wasn't upgraded at the same time (even the length of the franchise / stock isn't a barrier anymore, as we've seen from GWR). Since their replacement, the 3 ex GC TRSB's were moved from Derby to Ely, and Ely to Newport Docks (Sims) on June 8, 2020.

In the interim they had a piece of blue material over the GWR, but after refurbishment it's a piece of blue leather which says' 'First Class' on it - this section (and the previous green one which said GWR) is actually stitched on. The leather strip on the back of the headrest which was also embossed with the GWR lettering has been replaced by a plain blue strip (visible in your photo aove). It therefore appearst that at least the headrest section of the seat has been re-covered. The grab handles have also changed from green to blue, and carpets / table tops replaced or re-covered.



The second catering vehicle was left behind when the set first went to Crewe as it wasn't finished - I believe that's why it went back again a few weeks later.

The end carriage walls were also re-covered, previously they were covered in a vinyl type covering in cream with a small white gWr on it too. Those headrest's are not easy to remove from the seat base either, so it's impressive that they were removed and the GWR leather swatch replaced with a purposely embossed First Class one for EMR. Either way and as I mentioned the other day, I would personally put the ScotRail version of this over GWR and EMR, just, and considerably (and surprisingly to some) the Pullman. But taste's vary, as do carpet choices...

The GC buffets cluttered up Etches Park for a while before removal. I seem to recall that not only was the equipment not up to the EMT hot food offer as well as the vehicles having standard class seating, they had also suffered pretty badly with corrosion, a common issue with buffet cars. Part of the reason it was such a shame the MML buffets are being scrapped is that MML spent a huge amount on them rectifying bodywork issues.

I have to say I'm a little surprised to hear that. I know MML spent a fair bit of money in rectifying the bodywork issues on the TS/TFs which included removing the small luggage rack window (and in my opinion making the Mk3s look a lot smarter), though some of the 408XXs which came across to GW were in an awful state bodywork wise, with some of the home fleet being in much better condition. I took a few trips last year which, continentally landed me with 40808 - the holes in the bodywork were somewhat impressive! It's also one reason why I'm surprised to see it included in the LSL fleet.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I've edited my text relating to the photos, one of which is of 40204 - I had both as 41207, and also I had assumed that the filename would appear below the photo, but it should be clear which is which.
Although the carpets in 41207 are new, they do look very similar to the GWR style. possibly, the GWER carpets in the TRFB were retained.

And thank you DavidB for the other background information.

 

[fgwrich]

I've edited my text relating to the photos, one of which is of 40204 - I had both as 41207, and also I had assumed that the filename would appear below the photo, but it should be clear which is which.
Although the carpets in 41207 are new, they do look very similar to the GWR style. possibly, the GWER carpets in the TRFB were retained.

And thank you DavidB for the other background information.

Those carpets were installed by EMR during their refurbishment at Derby, the design of the GW First Class compartment was this one. The three lucky TRFB's to transfer across from GWR to EMT were 40204, 40205 and 40221.

 

[WesternLancer]

That GWR first-class interior is probably the best first-class interior on any train in recent decades. I guess those who used them are likely to have found the IEPs rather a big step down!

Yes, I didn't favour the amount of uni directional single seats - but I think they had good reason to do that - esp as it was in conjunction with converting 1 GWR 1st class car to (the horrendously densely packed) Std I think and thus a reduced 1st capacity. Shame they did not get kept for the Castle sets IMHO.

Of the two TRFBs for the Blue Pullman, 40801 remains a Buffet type vehicle for it's First Class passengers, and has kept the very smart FGW designed Buffet Counter (First Class Passengers on the BP have a Buffet Service Only), while 40802 has been totally gutted out and rebuilt as a full kitchen vehicle (Now designated Mk3 TK). Understandably, this has taken longer for it to be completed but will now be able to cater for a lot more diners than previously, with output from the kitchen now possible at both ends. Picking up 802 isn't the main reason why the set has gone back to Eastleigh (general fixes / snagging) though it will make it a lot easier.

LSL also have 40804 & 808 but these are for other uses.

Mk3 TK 40802 Eastleigh Works 16th October 2020

Indeed, the choice of bringing up the ex GC TF's to almost GWR Standard was somewhat surprising. Normally you tend to find operators trying to reverse engineer the quality downwards. In a way, it's a shame that the rest of the EMT fleet wasn't upgraded at the same time (even the length of the franchise / stock isn't a barrier anymore, as we've seen from GWR). Since their replacement, the 3 ex GC TRSB's were moved from Derby to Ely, and Ely to Newport Docks (Sims) on June 8, 2020.




The end carriage walls were also re-covered, previously they were covered in a vinyl type covering in cream with a small white gWr on it too. Those headrest's are not easy to remove from the seat base either, so it's impressive that they were removed and the GWR leather swatch replaced with a purposely embossed First Class one for EMR. Either way and as I mentioned the other day, I would personally put the ScotRail version of this over GWR and EMR, just, and considerably (and surprisingly to some) the Pullman. But taste's vary, as do carpet choices...



I have to say I'm a little surprised to hear that. I know MML spent a fair bit of money in rectifying the bodywork issues on the TS/TFs which included removing the small luggage rack window (and in my opinion making the Mk3s look a lot smarter), though some of the 408XXs which came across to GW were in an awful state bodywork wise, with some of the home fleet being in much better condition. I took a few trips last year which, continentally landed me with 40808 - the holes in the bodywork were somewhat impressive! It's also one reason why I'm surprised to see it included in the LSL fleet.

Thanks - esp nice to see the pics inside the works as per link. I do hope LSL can make a success of this train as it looks v good. Good luck to them.

 

[LowLevel]

Of the two TRFBs for the Blue Pullman, 40801 remains a Buffet type vehicle for it's First Class passengers, and has kept the very smart FGW designed Buffet Counter (First Class Passengers on the BP have a Buffet Service Only), while 40802 has been totally gutted out and rebuilt as a full kitchen vehicle (Now designated Mk3 TK). Understandably, this has taken longer for it to be completed but will now be able to cater for a lot more diners than previously, with output from the kitchen now possible at both ends. Picking up 802 isn't the main reason why the set has gone back to Eastleigh (general fixes / snagging) though it will make it a lot easier.

LSL also have 40804 & 808 but these are for other uses.

Mk3 TK 40802 Eastleigh Works 16th October 2020

Indeed, the choice of bringing up the ex GC TF's to almost GWR Standard was somewhat surprising. Normally you tend to find operators trying to reverse engineer the quality downwards. In a way, it's a shame that the rest of the EMT fleet wasn't upgraded at the same time (even the length of the franchise / stock isn't a barrier anymore, as we've seen from GWR). Since their replacement, the 3 ex GC TRSB's were moved from Derby to Ely, and Ely to Newport Docks (Sims) on June 8, 2020.




The end carriage walls were also re-covered, previously they were covered in a vinyl type covering in cream with a small white gWr on it too. Those headrest's are not easy to remove from the seat base either, so it's impressive that they were removed and the GWR leather swatch replaced with a purposely embossed First Class one for EMR. Either way and as I mentioned the other day, I would personally put the ScotRail version of this over GWR and EMR, just, and considerably (and surprisingly to some) the Pullman. But taste's vary, as do carpet choices...



I have to say I'm a little surprised to hear that. I know MML spent a fair bit of money in rectifying the bodywork issues on the TS/TFs which included removing the small luggage rack window (and in my opinion making the Mk3s look a lot smarter), though some of the 408XXs which came across to GW were in an awful state bodywork wise, with some of the home fleet being in much better condition. I took a few trips last year which, continentally landed me with 40808 - the holes in the bodywork were somewhat impressive! It's also one reason why I'm surprised to see it included in the LSL fleet.

The 407xx TRFB vehicles were the ones that had the money spent on them - I believe a lot of attention was given to things like sink drains to remove water traps underneath that cause corrosion.

A friend was a manager with MML at the time and he was always very proud of the amount of investment they put into the buffet cars and their kitchen facilities and that indeed the silver breakfast service survived so long on a comparatively short route.

 

[WesternLancer]

The 407xx TRFB vehicles were the ones that had the money spent on them - I believe a lot of attention was given to things like sink drains to remove water traps underneath that cause corrosion.

A friend was a manager with MML at the time and he was always very proud of the amount of investment they put into the buffet cars and their kitchen facilities and that indeed the silver breakfast service survived so long on a comparatively short route.

I'm def missing the breakfast service on Saturdays! The way things are going I suspect very little or no chance of it restarting before the HSTs finish in May, which is a great shame.

 

[DB]

The end carriage walls were also re-covered, previously they were covered in a vinyl type covering in cream with a small white gWr on it too. Those headrest's are not easy to remove from the seat base either, so it's impressive that they were removed and the GWR leather swatch replaced with a purposely embossed First Class one for EMR. Either way and as I mentioned the other day, I would personally put the ScotRail version of this over GWR and EMR, just, and considerably (and surprisingly to some) the Pullman. But taste's vary, as do carpet choices...

Are there any photos of the blue pullman interiors in the public domain yet, or is it still under wraps?

 

[fgwrich]

The 407xx TRFB vehicles were the ones that had the money spent on them - I believe a lot of attention was given to things like sink drains to remove water traps underneath that cause corrosion.

A friend was a manager with MML at the time and he was always very proud of the amount of investment they put into the buffet cars and their kitchen facilities and that indeed the silver breakfast service survived so long on a comparatively short route.

Ah, I can understand. The MML Vehicles were, at the time, probably the smartest and most well looked after MK3s on the network. The sink drain trap corrosion sounds about right to me, although they are heavier and slightly more solidly built than a TS/TF, it doesn’t take much for some of the regular underfloor corrosion spots to build and develop into something bigger. I believe it is one of the reasons why the ex TRFB 405XX series Mk3s were some of the first to be scrapped this year.

Here are those photos of 40808 at Swansea. Certainly not looking pretty, unfortunately on 2 out of 4 trips I had with it, the Fridge had decided to give up the ghost as did a few other electrical powered items.

Although I’ve never managed to try the MML Catering options, they certainly deserved to be proud of it. A silver service dining experience is something sadly missing now and although GWR still operates some of its services with the Pullman Dining, it just isn’t the same anymore with the switch over from the HSTs to the IETs. Gone are the beautifully branded crockery and table where, which has now sadly been replaced with a somewhat cheaper feeling unbranded range, once served up in the highly comfortable and rather exclusive feeling former GWR HST First Class.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Ah, I can understand. The MML Vehicles were, at the time, probably the smartest and most well looked after MK3s on the network. The sink drain trap corrosion sounds about right to me, although they are heavier and slightly more solidly built than a TS/TF, it doesn’t take much for some of the regular underfloor corrosion spots to build and develop into something bigger. I believe it is one of the reasons why the ex TRFB 405XX series Mk3s were some of the first to be scrapped this year.

Here are those photos of 40808 at Swansea. Certainly not looking pretty, unfortunately on 2 out of 4 trips I had with it, the Fridge had decided to give up the ghost as did a few other electrical powered items.

Although I’ve never managed to try the MML Catering options, they certainly deserved to be proud of it. A silver service dining experience is something sadly missing now and although GWR still operates some of its services with the Pullman Dining, it just isn’t the same anymore with the switch over from the HSTs to the IETs. Gone are the beautifully branded crockery and table where, which has now sadly been replaced with a somewhat cheaper feeling unbranded range, once served up in the highly comfortable and rather exclusive feeling former GWR HST First Class.

If that were a car, it would have definitely failed its MOT!

 

[fgwrich]

If that were a car, it would have definitely failed its MOT!

Indeed! I love the HSTs, I really do. But it's fair to say that some of those Mk3s were past their best by the end of their careers on the Western. Although the Ex LNER ones may not be as rotten, several years of a Vinyl based livery and a diminished amount of care from Craigentinny (coinciding with Hitachi's takeover) hasn't helped those vehicles either. It's no wonder why EMR are having issues with them, and unfortunately a NIR for other operators to be made aware of recent faults / issues with them last week.

 

[43096]

Indeed! I love the HSTs, I really do. But it's fair to say that some of those Mk3s were past their best by the end of their careers on the Western. Although the Ex LNER ones may not be as rotten, several years of a Vinyl based livery and a diminished amount of care from Craigentinny (coinciding with Hitachi's takeover) hasn't helped those vehicles either. It's no wonder why EMR are having issues with them, and unfortunately a NIR for other operators to be made aware of recent faults / issues with them last week.

The ex-LNER vehicles are knackered - the amount of work required on them is astonishing.

Suffice to say that the native Midland vehicles being replaced and sent for scrap (or preservation in some cases) are in much better condition than their replacements.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Here's a photo of the original way the 'GWR' was obscured in the TRFBs. Possibly intended to suggest it was stitched on but it actually wasn't...

 

[spotify95]

These photos may be of interest.
I have, somewhere (!) an interior of one of the ex GW TRFBs before refurbishment, but the photo of 40204 (5/9/19) shows, I think, that the GW seats were retained but with a piece of blue material over the embossed GWR. The photo of ex GC 41207 shows what I mean about being similar to the GW style.




View attachment 86616View attachment 86617

They look like reasonably nice interiors - though those yellow linear fluorescent tubes really perplexed me (even when I saw a glimpse through the train window when I saw a 6 car HST pass through). This surely has to be one of the most inefficient designs ever: tubes running the length of the train would be better than tubes running from window to window as you then don't need as many of them!
Thankfully, a lot of modern rolling stock seems to have LEDs fitted as standard - even the first pic's retrofit LEDs are nice (plus, they are a more natural white, which is more like the natural light coming through the windows). Surprisingly, despite a lot of the platforms, stations, booking offices, and trains being upgraded to LED (a lot of the MML Mk3s started to have LEDs installed at the end of the vestibules), the 222s are still halogen lit - and it's sometimes a flip of a coin as to whether they even work properly.

 

[DB]

They look like reasonably nice interiors - though those yellow linear fluorescent tubes really perplexed me (even when I saw a glimpse through the train window when I saw a 6 car HST pass through). This surely has to be one of the most inefficient designs ever: tubes running the length of the train would be better than tubes running from window to window as you then don't need as many of them!

That's the original Mk3 design,dating from the 1970s. Think those are the last ones left in TOC use now - msot operators have replaced them at som point within the past couple of decades.

 

[spotify95]

That's the original Mk3 design,dating from the 1970s. Think those are the last ones left in TOC use now - msot operators have replaced them at som point within the past couple of decades.

Thanks for the explanation. I never knew that!I knew that the EMR ones had been modernized at some point in the fleet's lifespan.Unfortunately a lot of the Mk3s are disappearing, and fast...

 

[DB]

Thanks for the explanation. I never knew that!I knew that the EMR ones had been modernized at some point in the fleet's lifespan.Unfortunately a lot of the Mk3s are disappearing, and fast...

Think the EMR ones were done back in Midland Mainline days - it was certainly before the refurbishment which EMT did. Other than that, the interiors remained fairly close to original.

FGW, XC and GNER (continuing into NXEC) did it as part of a full interior replacement, although from memory GNER at least had modified them previously as well.

 

[43096]

That's the original Mk3 design,dating from the 1970s. Think those are the last ones left in TOC use now - msot operators have replaced them at som point within the past couple of decades.

The Australian XPTs still have them!

 

[DannyMich2018]

Travelling on the 1745 Nott to STP from Leicester to Kettering. Wow!! The interior is ace! Power sockets, better seats, passenger displays. So much nicer than ex EMT ones. Like a rocket too as only 6 coaches!!

 

[WesternLancer]

Travelling on the 1745 Nott to STP from Leicester to Kettering. Wow!! The interior is ace! Power sockets, better seats, passenger displays. So much nicer than ex EMT ones. Like a rocket too as only 6 coaches!!

Yes, shame they will prob only be about till May and with far fewer after Dec 12th (esp given how clapped out the Meridian interiors are...)

 

[Clansman]

That GWR first-class interior is probably the best first-class interior on any train in recent decades. I guess those who used them are likely to have found the IEPs rather a big step down!

Unpopular opinion, but having experienced the same first class on ScotRail HSTs, I'd take a ScotRail 170401-420 first class any day over it! Sometimes a quaint, comfy, and cosy 170 is far superior to sitting on cold rock hard solid leather chair within a draughty wide-open squeaky invasive Mk3. Never thought I'd say that, but since 2018 I stand by it 100%!

[/Off-Topic]

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That GWR first-class interior is probably the best first-class interior on any train in recent decades. I guess those who used them are likely to have found the IEPs rather a big step down!

Unlike the ex LNER seats the GWR ones were hard. The LNER HSTs are much nicer than other HSTs and it will be a shame when EMR withdraws them

 

[WesternLancer]

Unlike the ex LNER seats the GWR ones were hard. The LNER HSTs are much nicer than other HSTs and it will be a shame when EMR withdraws them

I always find the LNER ones (way the leather seat pads are sort of folded) are rather too good at catching biscuit crumbs from the free biscuits! So when you sit down you often felt you were sitting in more crumbs than ideal....not the worst of problems but

 

[YorksLad12]

I always find the LNER ones (way the leather seat pads are sort of folded) are rather too good at catching biscuit crumbs from the free biscuits! So when you sit down you often felt you were sitting in more crumbs than ideal....not the worst of problems but

Yes. I inevitably had to brush the seat down before sitting in First. Great seats for slouching in.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes. I inevitably had to brush the seat down before sitting in First. Great seats for slouching in.

If forced to choose tho I'd keep the seats and drop the biscuits!
Mind you I have always found the IC70 (older style) seats very good.

 

[Mariner16]

Has probably been mentioned at some point, (that I couldn't actually see for myself!) but all of the red sets are going to 2+6 with 1 standard and 1 first class coming out. Apologies if it has been said!