Transpennine Industrial Relations

[Watershed]

The logical extension of that argument is no pay rises, ever! I’m sure that would please some on here…

Indeed, I was just pointing out that saying it's not linked to inflation is not really true.

 

[InOban]

I'm all in favour of a significant increase in the pay of guards/conductors /train managers or whatever they're called this week, because the interpersonal skills required are not universal among the potential workforce but are highly valuable to the railway operators. We've all seen, on the twitter feeds of the TOCs, stories of wonderful service by these people, as well as, of course, the opposite. But the RMT must recognise that these tasks are the core of the job, not some add on which must be negotiated over and above their basic pay.

Of course they must still retain the safety -critical skills for use in an emergency.

 

[43066]

I'm all in favour of a significant increase in the pay of guards/conductors /train managers or whatever they're called this week, because the interpersonal skills required are not universal among the potential workforce but are highly valuable to the railway operators. We've all seen, on the twitter feeds of the TOCs, stories of wonderful service by these people, as well as, of course, the opposite. But the RMT must recognise that these tasks are the core of the job, not some add on which must be negotiated over and above their basic pay.

That’s all perfectly sensible.

Of course the problem comes where the commission element has been allowed to form a significant part of pay for an extended period of time, but the ability to earn it has now been significantly eroded, with no commensurate increase in basic pay.

I’m sure the union would be happy for commission to be removed entirely and an increase in basic pay awarded to compensate.

 

[ComUtoR]

But the RMT must recognise that these tasks are the core of the job, not some add on which must be negotiated over and above their basic pay.

Relationships work in both directions. I do agree that scanning tickets is part and parcel of the job and a part of me does recognise that you should move the role forward as technology increases and the role changes but I also see the erosion of pay (as Low Level has clearly outlined) and I see that there is a significant financial benefit for the TOC too. By sharing that benefit and incentivise your workforce you build those important relationships with your staff. At a time where employees aren't gaining significant wage rises and where the cost of living is going through the proverbial roof, this could have been a quick win for the TOC. The end benefit if for the passenger. Happy staff who are company focussed will be more productive and more engaging. When the company makes it "just a job" there is little motivation to anything other than the minimum required and zero incentive to go the extra mile.

There are too many comments where everyone, especially the Government is "up for a fight" but none are saying lets build for the future. That includes building a workforce that wants to work for you.

 

[InOban]

Absolutely. A company which values its staff and sees them as an asset will save money by having lower staff turnover and therefore less spent on training new recruits. Unfortunately company accountants see staff only as a cost.

 

[the sniper]

The commission most largely rewards/rewarded those Guards that do the most of what many people here seem to value the most, them frequently checking tickets. Yet many of the same people seem to be against them receiving any additional reward for their efforts. Those Guards who put the most effort in just end up getting paid the same as those who just fulfil their core obligations. Those Guards who are lauded here will have lost a lot of money, while those who are regularly bemoaned for allegedly never leaving the back cab will have lost relatively little or nothing. I appreciate though some here will always take a contrary position to that of the RMT, regardless of what values they have to drop/adopt.

 

[nedchester]

The commission most largely rewards/rewarded those Guards that do the most of what many people here seem to value the most, them frequently checking tickets. Yet many of the same people seem to be against them receiving any additional reward for their efforts. Those Guards who put the most effort in just end up getting paid the same as those who just fulfil their core obligations. Those Guards who are lauded here will have lost a lot of money, while those who are regularly bemoaned for allegedly never leaving the back cab will have lost relatively little or nothing. I appreciate though some here will always take a contrary position to that of the RMT, regardless of what values they have to drop/adopt.

Maybe those who stay in the back cab should be pulled in and asked why they aren’t doing their job?

 

[the sniper]

Maybe those who stay in the back cab should be pulled in and asked why they aren’t doing their job?

Which would have relatively little impact on the overall picture. It's almost unavoidably a job that can be made as easy or as hard as an individual chooses, even if you could introduce a culture of fear.

Those who choose to do it the hard way now are often the ones who get the most attention from management, as by putting themselves out there, they're far more likely to be assaulted or have incidents, which can have severe, career defining/shortening consequences. I appreciate you see 'doing the doors' as an irrelevant piece of p*** 'responsibility', but the industry (as a whole) takes it rather more seriously. All the more reason to reward the risks those who go the extra mile take, if you're wishing to take a more capitalist approach to running the railway...

 

[Robertj21a]

Relationships work in both directions. I do agree that scanning tickets is part and parcel of the job and a part of me does recognise that you should move the role forward as technology increases and the role changes but I also see the erosion of pay (as Low Level has clearly outlined) and I see that there is a significant financial benefit for the TOC too. By sharing that benefit and incentivise your workforce you build those important relationships with your staff. At a time where employees aren't gaining significant wage rises and where the cost of living is going through the proverbial roof, this could have been a quick win for the TOC. The end benefit if for the passenger. Happy staff who are company focussed will be more productive and more engaging. When the company makes it "just a job" there is little motivation to anything other than the minimum required and zero incentive to go the extra mile.

There are too many comments where everyone, especially the Government is "up for a fight" but none are saying lets build for the future. That includes building a workforce that wants to work for you.

Quite agree. As you say, relationships work in both directions. If the operators agree to pay the commission then, hopefully, the staff/RMT will be a little more understanding when some co-operation is needed to help the public.

 

[nedchester]

Which would have relatively little impact on the overall picture. It's almost unavoidably a job that can be made as easy or as hard as an individual chooses, even if you could introduce a culture of fear.

Those who choose to do it the hard way now are often the ones who get the most attention from management, as by putting themselves out there, they're far more likely to be assaulted or have incidents, which can have severe, career defining/shortening consequences. I appreciate you see 'doing the doors' as an irrelevant piece of p*** 'responsibility', but the industry (as a whole) takes it rather more seriously. All the more reason to reward the risks those who go the extra mile take, if you're wishing to take a more capitalist approach to running the railway...

Depends if “going the extra mile” is actually just part of the job?

The question of assault is a different matter.

 

[matacaster]

The commission most largely rewards/rewarded those Guards that do the most of what many people here seem to value the most, them frequently checking tickets. Yet many of the same people seem to be against them receiving any additional reward for their efforts. Those Guards who put the most effort in just end up getting paid the same as those who just fulfil their core obligations. Those Guards who are lauded here will have lost a lot of money, while those who are regularly bemoaned for allegedly never leaving the back cab will have lost relatively little or nothing. I appreciate though some here will always take a contrary position to that of the RMT, regardless of what values they have to drop/adopt.

Surely when the tickets are scanned, they will be attributed to the guard concerned so statistically it will be easy for management to identify guards who regularly stay in the back cab?

 

[the sniper]

Surely when the tickets are scanned, they will be attributed to the guard concerned so statistically it will be easy for management to identify guards who regularly stay in the back cab?

Are you under the impression they wouldn't know anyway?

 

[RPI]

Surely when the tickets are scanned, they will be attributed to the guard concerned so statistically it will be easy for management to identify guards who regularly stay in the back cab?

Some TOC's certainly do look at the amount of scans done, I like this for me as even at times when takings are low etc it can at least be seen that I've been up and down working.

 

[nedchester]

Are you under the impression they wouldn't know anyway?

They probably do but at least they’d have some evidence if they needed to challenge?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Some TOC's certainly do look at the amount of scans done, I like this for me as even at times when takings are low etc it can at least be seen that I've been up and down working.

And this is one of the arguements against it. Some Staff dont want management using the scanning as a tool to spy on staff performance, but to me this is exactly the reason why they SHOULD receive a psyment for scanning. Rewards those who do reguarly patrol trains and check tickets, incentivises those who don't. And yes there should be some sort of please explain for those who are consistently low. Odd occasions, yes we do have low days, we are human after all. But those that are consistently low then questions need to be asked why. There could be a welfare issue or other personal circumstance affecting performance and tools like this can help spot when things are wrong. No doubt those that would object are those same ones that do dwell in the rear cab all day because they wont be able to hide away any more. But surely those individuals want to protect their job roles as much as everyone else?….

 

[muz379]

Unrealistic demands and widespread strike action will play into the hands of a Government damaged by various issues looking for a good old Populist fight with the unions. It's all about "reading the room".

Im not sure it is an "Unrealistic demand" when it was previously offered by the company and another Toc operating in the same area is doing exactly what is being demanded at TPE . There is also the issue over sunday payment which again does not appear that unrealistic when at the time of the dispute drivers had an enhancement for rest day working . Its all stuff that can and is being done elsewhere .

Push aside the pro & anti-union tripe in these 27 pages, this boils down to:-

- A pay rise of about £2.40-£3.00 per guard per day, assuming they check tickets.

- 2p a scan could encourage guards to check more, and push the lazier ones out to check all tickets, as happened at Northern.

- The company's finance director suggests she should not pay it as that farebox money is going to the DfT not FG.

- The DfT pays the company it's contractual 'wage' part funded from those fares.

So, pragmatically, 2p a scan is beneficial to the DfT as it is self funding, but TPE don't see that revenue, so aren't bothered.

But that is not my argument here.... If we're heading for a summer of mass strikes and a £3ish-per-day rise (cost of 1x Small Macchiato, Starbucks) was refused, leading to a few, single day strikes, then Lord only knows what will happen when staff ask for a pay rise which matches the rising cost of living of say 9-10%.

There is of course as above the issue over RDW and Sunday enhnacements although that argument probably has lost a bit of momentum since RDW was stopped for drivers .

Maybe those who stay in the back cab should be pulled in and asked why they aren’t doing their job?

This has been done to death already , when evidence exists that a guard is consistently failing to perform all of their duties with no good reason disciplinary action can and is used to address this .

The problem is , it is fairly resource intensive to gather that evidence , you need to identify a consistent pattern and evidence it which is really only done by having managers riding round on trains worked by that guard and observing them not performing any revenue duties over a period of time .

What is more common is for people to be monitored and assessed against their depots revenue figures , it used to be tickets sold per shift compared against a depot average where I work . Now its scanning figures . So people that are significantly below average can be told to improve and monitored for improvement . In this respect having an incentive to scan tickets actually helps managers identify those not pulling their weight because it widens the gap between the top scanners chasing their 2p's and those just barely doing what is needed .

 

[VauxhallNova]

38% cancellations so far today, and no trains from Leeds to Manchester between the 0907 to Piccadilly and the 1015 to Liverpool.

 

[Some guy]

They’ve cancelled even more west coast services throughout the day. When is someone going to step in and get this mess out. It can’t keep going on like this

 

[Watershed]

They’ve cancelled even more west coast services throughout the day. When is someone going to step in and get this mess out. It can’t keep going on like this

How is stepping in going to change anything? You are still going to have the same traincrew and same unions with the same disputes...

No, what is needed is for the DfT to start getting around the negotiating table with the unions about what this year's pay/productivity deal will look like. But at the moment they are not interested, and as long as that remains the case, it will continue to just get worse and worse.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Will the trades union members involved in this dispute be losing financially whilst matters stay the same?

 

[Moonshot]

They’ve cancelled even more west coast services throughout the day. When is someone going to step in and get this mess out. It can’t keep going on like this

It's only going to get worse when Northern join in the strike party, which will be happening before too long. No trains at weekends is increasingly likely now.

 

[Robertj21a]

How is stepping in going to change anything? You are still going to have the same traincrew and same unions with the same disputes...

No, what is needed is for the DfT to start getting around the negotiating table with the unions about what this year's pay/productivity deal will look like. But at the moment they are not interested, and as long as that remains the case, it will continue to just get worse and worse.

I can't see the DfT getting involved over a union dispute.

 

[Killingworth]

It's only going to get worse when Northern join in the strike party, which will be happening before too long. No trains at weekends is increasingly likely now.

It's 2 years now since one of, if not the, most successful negative transport advertising campaigns in history - don't use public transport or you may die!

Just as travellers are recovering their confidence in rail they face the prospect of cancellations and disruptions. Management that should be concentrating on reconfiguring operations to better match the new leisure orientated market will be diverted to do the best they can in a disruptive environment.

It's over 40 years since the height of our last inflationary period with constantly leapfrogging wage demands. My moderate union at that time had no strike weapon in its constitution to use, but voted to get one. We took industrial action short of striking and eventually got good settlements, as did most employees. Some employers and unions dug their heals in and customers went elsewhere. Many employers revised their operations to use fewer staff, but it took years for all those measures to take full effect.

We face difficult times. With passenger numbers down to 80% of what they were very recently we need ways to get them back, not to push them further away.

I was looking at a leisure trip this Saturday. Two options looked good on a journey planner - but both included TPE legs. A third option gets my vote. Looks like the car will be doing it all by July.

 

[muz379]

It's over 40 years since the height of our last inflationary period with constantly leapfrogging wage demands

to be fair if they had settled pay claims early april based on March RPI at 9% then that would be settled regardless of RPI now rising to 11.1% and projected to rise even further .

 

[Killingworth]

to be fair if they had settled pay claims early april based on March RPI at 9% then that would be settled regardless of RPI now rising to 11.1% and projected to rise even further .

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I doubt a 9% settlement would have been agreed. Back in 1975 we reached 25% but over the last 30 years we'd kept below 4% and minds haven't got used to such high figures. We're entering a very different and difficult period.

 

[Watershed]

to be fair if they had settled pay claims early april based on March RPI at 9% then that would be settled regardless of RPI now rising to 11.1% and projected to rise even further .

I very much doubt that. The unions would, perhaps understandably, argue that inflation had superceded the deal and therefore they want a further uplift.

 

[muz379]

I very much doubt that. The unions would, perhaps understandably, argue that inflation had superceded the deal and therefore they want a further uplift.

Not what has happened in the past when inflation has increased after a deal being reached .

 

[VauxhallNova]

Does anyone know why the relationship between unions and TOC is particularly difficult for TPE?

Recent periods have seen them again have the worst reliability statistics in the country.

 

[Some guy]

Does anyone know why the relationship between unions and TOC is particularly difficult for TPE?

Recent periods have seen them again have the worst reliability statistics in the country.

From what I understand of it. TPE’s waste of space management team are refusing to give staff a higher pay for working Sunday/ working rest days meaning the union has imposed staff to do a work to rule including Sunday strike but TPE are still digging their heels in despite making so much money from the pandemic.

 

[Kite159]

From what I understand of it. TPE’s waste of space management team are refusing to give staff a higher pay for working Sunday/ working rest days meaning the union has imposed staff to do a work to rule including Sunday strike but TPE are still digging their heels in despite making so much money from the pandemic.

Is it the management team refusing to give the higher pay or is it the DFT refusing to authorise it, with the TPE management team having their arms tied around their back, caught in the middle with little say