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Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

CJ

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TPE don't do power changeovers on the move currently (quite aside from the capability, or otherwise, of the wiring to withstand moving pantographs being raised). Nothing stopping the pan from being raised whilst at Piccadilly but it would be a bit pointless as most of the turnarounds are only 20-25 mins and the diesel engines need to be restarted in time for departure.

Guide Bridge-Stalybridge is certainly in the last version of the plan I've seen - the bigger omission IMHO is Philips Park West Jn to Ashburys, which is a very useful little line that's currently slated to remain unelectrified.

Ah yes, that small line that goes to / from Miles Platting. I agree, it would make sense if that bit was also electrified.

I wonder if the reason it's omitted (or not considering) is because it's lack of passenger train use (only freight / ECS)?

I seem to remember that there was a once a week TPE service to Manchester Victoria / Liverpool that went that way I think for route knowledge (Sunday only) on the May 18 / pre-Covid timetable.

Sadly this service no longer exists now.
 
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Grumpy

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It isn't just about TP but also XC avoiding
So:
a) have an alternative national XC timetable for when Leeds - Church Fenton is closed for electrification works so that XC services still call at Leeds requiring more trains and staff
or
b) rereoute via Castleford and run a sperate shuttle service Leeds - Castleford
And a separate Castleford shuttle wouldn’t require more trains and staff?
 

hwl

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And a separate Castleford shuttle wouldn’t require more trains and staff?
Potentially easily run by Northern (or TPE). It doesn't have to be provided by the same operator or rolling stock. XC tended to be busiest Friday - Sunday
 

Greybeard33

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TPE don't do power changeovers on the move currently (quite aside from the capability, or otherwise, of the wiring to withstand moving pantographs being raised).
The OLE through Guide Bridge is fixed termination (BR's minimum change conversion of the original 1950s DC wiring). So the contact wire tension varies with temperature. Probably a no-no for pan raising on the move.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Another planet...
The OLE through Guide Bridge is fixed termination (BR's minimum change conversion of the original 1950s DC wiring). So the contact wire tension varies with temperature. Probably a no-no for pan raising on the move.
Using my layperson's rudimentary understanding of the process, would I be close to right in assuming that lowering the pantograph on the move would be less of a problem for the infrastructure? So theoretically, an 802 could arrive at Piccadilly from Guide Bridge on diesel, then pan up on arrival. It could then depart on electric, and switch mode and pan down on the approach to Guide Bridge? There's probably several factors I'm missing, but if workable it would at least reduce diesel emissions under the roof at Piccadilly.
 

zwk500

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Using my layperson's rudimentary understanding of the process, would I be close to right in assuming that lowering the pantograph on the move would be less of a problem for the infrastructure? So theoretically, an 802 could arrive at Piccadilly from Guide Bridge on diesel, then pan up on arrival. It could then depart on electric, and switch mode and pan down on the approach to Guide Bridge? There's probably several factors I'm missing, but if workable it would at least reduce diesel emissions under the roof at Piccadilly.
I'm not sure whether the pan down would be a problem, but either way it wouldn't really reduce the diesel emissions as the engine would need to keep running to be able to kick in at linespeed at Guide Bridge.
 

SuperNova

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Using my layperson's rudimentary understanding of the process, would I be close to right in assuming that lowering the pantograph on the move would be less of a problem for the infrastructure? So theoretically, an 802 could arrive at Piccadilly from Guide Bridge on diesel, then pan up on arrival. It could then depart on electric, and switch mode and pan down on the approach to Guide Bridge? There's probably several factors I'm missing, but if workable it would at least reduce diesel emissions under the roof at Piccadilly.
Operationally, a farce. Not worth the bother.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I'm not sure whether the pan down would be a problem, but either way it wouldn't really reduce the diesel emissions as the engine would need to keep running to be able to kick in at linespeed at Guide Bridge.
That does sound like a good reason not to, to be fair! Thanks for the explanation.
 

Watershed

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Using my layperson's rudimentary understanding of the process, would I be close to right in assuming that lowering the pantograph on the move would be less of a problem for the infrastructure? So theoretically, an 802 could arrive at Piccadilly from Guide Bridge on diesel, then pan up on arrival. It could then depart on electric, and switch mode and pan down on the approach to Guide Bridge? There's probably several factors I'm missing, but if workable it would at least reduce diesel emissions under the roof at Piccadilly.
Emissions aren't really a big issue at Piccadilly (in terms of localised air quality, as at New Street for example). The roof is very high and has gaps between the glass panels to allow good ventilation. Unfortunately this also means that when it rains, a fine mist falls onto the platforms, making them extremely slippery!
 

Meerkat

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I'm not sure whether the pan down would be a problem, but either way it wouldn't really reduce the diesel emissions as the engine would need to keep running to be able to kick in at linespeed at Guide Bridge.
Why? When do they switch the engines on when doing Paddington to Oxford?
 

greyman42

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Currently, TPE could raise and drop their class 8xx pantographs at Colton which would avoid them using diesel inside York station, but they don't.
 

zwk500

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In the station?!
I thought modern engines had warming systems to save fuel.
Warming systems save engine maintenance. It's still a mechanical engine, and therefore needs the expansion and contraction of the metal parts managed, and everything properly lubricated before it can be run at full speed. It's a bit like you're not meant to use full throttle in a car until the engine's up to temperature (not that anybody pays attention to it). For Didcot/Reading-London-Reading, it's worth shutting the engine down. But for Piccadilly-Guide bridge it'll be operationally more robust and kinder to the engine to just leave it on idle than shut it down and do a restart procedure.
So what’s the point of electrifying the few extra miles to Church Fenton?
Are the wires west of Colton Junction up/live yet? And do TPE run on electric north of York?
 

Meerkat

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But for Piccadilly-Guide bridge it'll be operationally more robust and kinder to the engine to just leave it on idle than shut it down and do a restart procedure.
What do the 185s do when they switch individual engines off then?
 

WAO

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So what’s the point of electrifying the few extra miles to Church Fenton?
Because every mile operated by electric rather than diesel traction, even (mostly) for bi-modes, offers savings in maintenance, fuel, leasing, track wear, availability, timekeeping and CO2 emissions.

The 2009 Electrification RUS wasn't that far out (p31).

WAO
 

Ken H

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Warming systems save engine maintenance. It's still a mechanical engine, and therefore needs the expansion and contraction of the metal parts managed, and everything properly lubricated before it can be run at full speed. It's a bit like you're not meant to use full throttle in a car until the engine's up to temperature (not that anybody pays attention to it). For Didcot/Reading-London-Reading, it's worth shutting the engine down. But for Piccadilly-Guide bridge it'll be operationally more robust and kinder to the engine to just leave it on idle than shut it down and do a restart procedure.

Are the wires west of Colton Junction up/live yet? And do TPE run on electric north of York?
I had a bollocking from the garage about my turbo-diesel. He said the turbo needs to have oil running through it for a while before giving it some welly. needs 30 seconds idle before setting off. train engines are bigger so probably need more time.
HST's were failing with cracks because of binary driving. going from tickover to full power then back to tickover introduces a thermal cycle (cooling and heating) that caused stresses in the metal, eventually causing cracking.
 

Ploughman

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I had a bollocking from the garage about my turbo-diesel. He said the turbo needs to have oil running through it for a while before giving it some welly. needs 30 seconds idle before setting off. train engines are bigger so probably need more time.
HST's were failing with cracks because of binary driving. going from tickover to full power then back to tickover introduces a thermal cycle (cooling and heating) that caused stresses in the metal, eventually causing cracking.
Likewise it is best to allow a wind down time before shutting down any turbo fitted engine.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Going via Newbury they switch on the engines at Reading, allowing ~15 minutes warming time

In the station?!
I thought modern engines had warming systems to save fuel.
Liverpool-Newcastle 802s fire up their diesel engines as they run into into Manchester Victoria, with just a normal couple of minutes station stop before powering off eastwards.
 

Revaulx

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Because every mile operated by electric rather than diesel traction, even (mostly) for bi-modes, offers savings in maintenance, fuel, leasing, track wear, availability, timekeeping and CO2 emissions.

The 2009 Electrification RUS wasn't that far out (p31).

WAO
Yeah I get all that :)

It’ll only apply though if the changeover is done (presumably) on the move at Church Fenton, rather than while stopped at York station as now.

The 802s already run as far as Colton under the wires but don’t change over on the move. Apparently there are technical reasons for this which the new stretch of wiring will overcome
 

WAO

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Completely agree.

I think that the changeover (pan up) has to be done on the straight with a c16.5kN wire tension.

P26 of that same RUS showed the significant %'s of diesel operation under the wires across the network. There's no point in wiring if many of the operators can't or won't use it.

WAO
 

hwl

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Completely agree.

I think that the changeover (pan up) has to be done on the straight with a c16.5kN wire tension.

P26 of that same RUS showed the significant %'s of diesel operation under the wires across the network. There's no point in wiring if many of the operators can't or won't use it.

WAO
You have to start to break the chicken and egg type cycles some where, and Bi-modes can help in this regard.
 

59CosG95

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Completely agree.

I think that the changeover (pan up) has to be done on the straight with a c16.5kN wire tension.

P26 of that same RUS showed the significant %'s of diesel operation under the wires across the network. There's no point in wiring if many of the operators can't or won't use it.

WAO
Not necesarily 16.5kN, that's just the contact wire tension on Series 1 (and its defacto replacement, UKMS140).
While we've yet to see any concrete evidence of what equipment will be used between York & Church Fenton, expect it to be UKMS125 (with 15kN in the contact).
I'm sure it's ideal to pan up on 'the straight' (Tangent track with 0 cant), but with slightly lower tension, there might be some more variance allowed.

Besides, the pan-up/pan-down point north of Church Fenton is pretty straight, as is the while route to Colton Jn, barring the curve at Bolton Percy.
 

GRALISTAIR

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You have to start to break the chicken and egg type cycles some where, and Bi-modes can help in this regard.
Completely agree. I was angry at first when Grayling announced bimodes. I have since changed my mind. As long as bimodes are part of a strategy to have a rolling program of electrification, they are very useful.
 

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