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Transport for Wales 769's

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Techniquest

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Maybe have a manager speak to them sternly and then brick them into a tunnel... :D

Ensuring the lecture begins with a loud "Oi!" to focus the 769s' attention first, as well as ensuring they know they've caused confusion and delay.

I'll happily confess to having seen some of the very early episodes (and some of the next wave with a different narrator) recently! Couldn't help it, they popped up as recommendations on YouTube :lol:
 

Grumpy Git

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Ensuring the lecture begins with a loud "Oi!" to focus the 769s' attention first, as well as ensuring they know they've caused confusion and delay.

I'll happily confess to having seen some of the very early episodes (and some of the next wave with a different narrator) recently! Couldn't help it, they popped up as recommendations on YouTube :lol:

Classic TV, even if your kids are 23 and 20.
 

Class360/1

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Maybe have a manager speak to them sternly and then brick them into a tunnel... :D

Ensuring the lecture begins with a loud "Oi!" to focus the 769s' attention first, as well as ensuring they know they've caused confusion and delay.

I'll happily confess to having seen some of the very early episodes (and some of the next wave with a different narrator) recently! Couldn't help it, they popped up as recommendations on YouTube :lol:
Even better!
 

supervc-10

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I kind of feel that the good people of south Wales shouldn't have to wait for November weather for their trains to work!
 

Buzz68

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769007+769008 5P49 Ystrad Mynach to Cardiff Canton. 769008 failed at Ystrad Mynach on the 2P49 just after 1230pm. 769007 arrived as 1Z99 from Canton and 37418 was sent from Rhymney as cover as 0Z99. Seen passing Llanbradach 7.1.2022A90878C7-A502-4740-96D8-44AB32341C5D.jpeg22D9465E-D001-4821-8287-1F960D530203.jpeg
 

Caaardiff

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Not another failed unit!
Anyways nice pictures
One of these things usually fails every couple of days in some form. The difference is whether they can get it going again or if it needs rescuing. Good to see they can now rescue with another 769 rather than just relying on the Class 37.
 

Bikeman78

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Are 769421 and 769426 off the agenda now?
I've not been paying that much attention but I think there are eight up and running which includes one of those two. I'd be surprised if the ninth ever runs but stranger things have happened.
 

JonathanH

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I've not been paying that much attention but I think there are eight up and running which includes one of those two. I'd be surprised if the ninth ever runs but stranger things have happened.
769421 seems to have been discarded having been one of the eight. 769426 had the problem with a damaged vehicle from accidents in Thameslink days.
 

berneyarms

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769426 has not been delivered. Last report was that it was at Brush Loughborough.
All of the others have been delivered to Cardiff.
 

Armchair Bob

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All this trouble with the class 769s seems to me to be a result of trying to power a 4-car train with reasonably heavy loadings up fairly steep gradients whilst providing on-board electrics with just two engines in the spare space under the driving vehicles. They just don't have enough oomph! I've seen it before with the Wright Streetcars formerly used in Swansea which used to refuse to proceed once faced with a sustained incline - they would just go into 'limp mode' in the summer when the aircon was operating at max. I suggest a better use for them may be to refit the pantograph and trial them on Liverpool to Llandudno as bi-modes where they can operate on the OLE between the former as far as the Halton Curve and then sail comfortably along the North Wales coast to the latter. I don't actually know what gradients exist on that stretch but it seems very flat to me when l've travelled over it, perhaps someone can enlighten me?
 

507020

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All this trouble with the class 769s seems to me to be a result of trying to power a 4-car train with reasonably heavy loadings up fairly steep gradients whilst providing on-board electrics with just two engines in the spare space under the driving vehicles. They just don't have enough oomph! I've seen it before with the Wright Streetcars formerly used in Swansea which used to refuse to proceed once faced with a sustained incline - they would just go into 'limp mode' in the summer when the aircon was operating at max. I suggest a better use for them may be to refit the pantograph and trial them on Liverpool to Llandudno as bi-modes where they can operate on the OLE between the former as far as the Halton Curve and then sail comfortably along the North Wales coast to the latter. I don't actually know what gradients exist on that stretch but it seems very flat to me when l've travelled over it, perhaps someone can enlighten me?
Of course the WCML wires exist between Liverpool and Runcorn and coastal routes are by definition flat because the sea is always exactly at sea level, so as long as it doesn’t deviate far from the coast it can’t possibly be anything other than perfectly level.
 

Anonymous10

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Of course the WCML wires exist between Liverpool and Runcorn and coastal routes are by definition flat because the sea is always exactly at sea level, so as long as it doesn’t deviate far from the coast it can’t possibly be anything other than perfectly level.
same as if these were used on south wales main line however that's already sorted
 

Grumpy Git

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Of course the WCML wires exist between Liverpool and Runcorn and coastal routes are by definition flat because the sea is always exactly at sea level, so as long as it doesn’t deviate far from the coast it can’t possibly be anything other than perfectly level.
I can't imagine the purgatory of being stranded at Rhyl on a 769!
 

samuelmorris

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All this trouble with the class 769s seems to me to be a result of trying to power a 4-car train with reasonably heavy loadings up fairly steep gradients whilst providing on-board electrics with just two engines in the spare space under the driving vehicles. They just don't have enough oomph! I've seen it before with the Wright Streetcars formerly used in Swansea which used to refuse to proceed once faced with a sustained incline - they would just go into 'limp mode' in the summer when the aircon was operating at max. I suggest a better use for them may be to refit the pantograph and trial them on Liverpool to Llandudno as bi-modes where they can operate on the OLE between the former as far as the Halton Curve and then sail comfortably along the North Wales coast to the latter. I don't actually know what gradients exist on that stretch but it seems very flat to me when l've travelled over it, perhaps someone can enlighten me?
It's more just that it isn't being done very well. What other DMU do you know of where the engines have to run at full speed if the train is in motion, whether or not it is under power?
 

Wyrleybart

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It's more just that it isn't being done very well. What other DMU do you know of where the engines have to run at full speed if the train is in motion, whether or not it is under power?

I think you might have to add US designed diesel locos with HEP (hotel power aka electric train supply. Some of these tend to run at full chat 904 rpm. I've witness them at Boston but there are many commuter operations, also think the Irish Rail class 201s run at full RPM if the loco is supplying the train.
 

samuelmorris

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I think you might have to add US designed diesel locos with HEP (hotel power aka electric train supply. Some of these tend to run at full chat 904 rpm. I've witness them at Boston but there are many commuter operations, also think the Irish Rail class 201s run at full RPM if the loco is supplying the train.
Are they DMUs though? It's a bit different when the engine isn't directly underneath the seats.
 

GC class B1

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I think you might have to add US designed diesel locos with HEP (hotel power aka electric train supply. Some of these tend to run at full chat 904 rpm. I've witness them at Boston but there are many commuter operations, also think the Irish Rail class 201s run at full RPM if the loco is supplying the train.
The class 201s don’t supply head end power any more. They have generator vans on the Enterprise train now.
 

AM9

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It's more just that it isn't being done very well. What other DMU do you know of where the engines have to run at full speed if the train is in motion, whether or not it is under power?
The 769s didn't run at full engine revolutions when I last rode on one. It pulled away from Wigan Wallgate up to about 25mph for the Kirkby line junction with the engine running at a fast tickover. After that the speed steadily built up to about 50mph before slowing for Gathurst, pulling away from there the engine speed was controlled (unlike a 150 being thrashed). Between Burscough Bridge and Meols Cop it reached and sustained 73mph for a while. The engines were at medium speed except when initially pulling away but even then there was no sound of them being anywhere near full speed. Indeed, I was travelling in the front car above one of the gensets and for speeds above 30-40 the DC traction motors in the third car could clearly be heard above the diesels, - almost like travelling in a 319. Not what I would call having to run at "full speed if the train was in motion". Several posts on RUK have also commented about the relative quietness of the gensets.
 

craigybagel

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All this trouble with the class 769s seems to me to be a result of trying to power a 4-car train with reasonably heavy loadings up fairly steep gradients whilst providing on-board electrics with just two engines in the spare space under the driving vehicles. They just don't have enough oomph! I've seen it before with the Wright Streetcars formerly used in Swansea which used to refuse to proceed once faced with a sustained incline - they would just go into 'limp mode' in the summer when the aircon was operating at max. I suggest a better use for them may be to refit the pantograph and trial them on Liverpool to Llandudno as bi-modes where they can operate on the OLE between the former as far as the Halton Curve and then sail comfortably along the North Wales coast to the latter. I don't actually know what gradients exist on that stretch but it seems very flat to me when l've travelled over it, perhaps someone can enlighten me?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. They may indeed have turned out more reliable on a less taxing route like this, but the reason they were procured in the first place was to free up units to increase capacity on the Valleys and allow for the retirement of the Pacers. And the only way to do that in large amounts with a 4 car unit meant putting them on the Valleys themselves.

If they'd worked the way Porterbrook said it should have been fine - but sadly they don't. There's next to no chance that we'll see them used on a different route instead - it's become pretty obvious that this whole debacle is something everyone would like to just move on from and forget about as soon as possible, once their replacements enter service.
I think you might have to add US designed diesel locos with HEP (hotel power aka electric train supply. Some of these tend to run at full chat 904 rpm. I've witness them at Boston but there are many commuter operations, also think the Irish Rail class 201s run at full RPM if the loco is supplying the train.

The class 201s don’t supply head end power any more. They have generator vans on the Enterprise train now.
And the reason the practice was abandoned at Irish Rail was because of the poor impact it was having on the locos reliability.
 

Caaardiff

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Hindsight is a wonderful thing. They may indeed have turned out more reliable on a less taxing route like this, but the reason they were procured in the first place was to free up units to increase capacity on the Valleys and allow for the retirement of the Pacers. And the only way to do that in large amounts with a 4 car unit meant putting them on the Valleys themselves.

If they'd worked the way Porterbrook said it should have been fine - but sadly they don't. There's next to no chance that we'll see them used on a different route instead - it's become pretty obvious that this whole debacle is something everyone would like to just move on from and forget about as soon as possible, once their replacements enter service.
Exactly that. If the 769s and 230's had worked as planned then TfW would be in a much different place and those units are ideal for what they were planned to do.
I think Arriva and the WG went into this unprepared though. They were sold units that were due to get extensive modifications and modifications never really seen before, yet no-one appeared to ask the questions, what if these don't work? There doesn't appear to have been any contractual clause or caution exercised in if this whole process didn't work, which has ultimately lead to TfW being left with duff, unreliable units and their reputation shattered on the Rhymney line, which has also in a way extended to other parts of the network because of the unit shortages as a result.
The only saviour for TfW over the past 2 years is actually Covid.
 
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Exactly that. If the 769s and 230's had worked as planned then TfW would be in a much different place and those units are ideal for what they were planned to do.
I think Arriva and the WG went into this unprepared though. They were sold units that were due to get extensive modifications and modifications never really seen before, yet no-one appeared to ask the questions, what if these don't work? There doesn't appear to have been any contractual clause or caution exercised in if this whole process didn't work, which has ultimately lead to TfW being left with duff, unreliable units and their reputation shattered on the Rhymney line, which has also in a way extended to other parts of the network because of the unit shortages as a result.
The only saviour for TfW over the past 2 years is actually Covid.
I guess at the time they were desperate for any extra rolling stock they could get their hands on (including the 153s) to fill the gap until the new stock arrives?
 

Bob Price

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The idea was they would use the 769's so they could PRM the 150's. However they took so long to get into service they had to get the 153's in to fill the gaps. Whether the 197's will come into service quick enough to release 150 and 153's to reduce reliance on them remains to be seen.
 

Caaardiff

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The idea was they would use the 769's so they could PRM the 150's. However they took so long to get into service they had to get the 153's in to fill the gaps. Whether the 197's will come into service quick enough to release 150 and 153's to reduce reliance on them remains to be seen.
It all depends on train crew training now. Hopefully there will be a few in service by the height of summer, maybe even one or two by May timetable change.
The issue arises when you don't have all train crew at certain depots passed out, so even if say the 197's are kept on Chester - Liverpool, you're still going to need a backup unit to cover if train crew don't sign the traction. When you start to branch out the units on further routes, with other train crew depots involved, then it becomes even more complicated.
So even starting to see them on Chester - Liverpools won't necessarily free up any units.
Start putting them on North Wales Coast services and you have 3 train crew depots involved (Holyhead, Llandudno Junction & Chester) all at different levels of training, where you could have 2-3 set of train crew working a service (Manchester - Holyhead for example). Chester train crew could work 197's from Manchester - Chester, Llandudno Junc. train crew Chester - Llandudno Junc and Holyhead train crew working over to Holyhead.
It would make sense to be cautious and confine them to Chester - Liverpool and maybe even Blaenau Branch for some time until a high proportion of train crew are signed off where it can be swapped to an old unit if necessary.
 
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