Traveling with an expired rail card yet paid more for the “discounted” price

[LilyRose]

Hello first time poster here, sorry for the long post! To start off I’m an international uni student from the US.

So the other day I was traveling by southern railways from Eastbourne to Brighton, one way, with an expired 16-25 rail card, it expired in September.

(In my defense I had no idea it was expired since the last time I traveled by rail was back in March when I was traveling back to the US due to Covid). But yeah I know, this is considered an excuse.

Anyways at Brighton, after being told my card was expired I offer to pay the fine/fare however, I was told I was unable to do this, and I have to wait for someone to contact me via post or call (I gave my accurate details, though I am second guessing a bit if I gave the right post code, since I recently moved). However, I find this situation strange because I heard you can pay the fine immediately, so how come this wasn’t given to me as an option? I even asked if somehow I can contact the people who are going to contact me but I was told I have to wait. Is this really true, is there no one I can contact? Also when I was giving my information my Miranda Rights (Caution I think, is the UK equivalent) you know the legal phrasing of “...anything you say can be used against you in court etc.” was given me by the ticket lady, is this considered bad...a recordable offense?

Now ordinarily I don’t mind fessing up and paying for my mistakes, however, I started looking closely at the T&C and I noticed that they applied when the rail card is used to purchase a “discounted ticket” the thing is my ticket wasn’t discounted, in fact I ended up paying .10 cents more. A normal ticket cost 11.90 but I ended up paying 12.00 since I was traveling during peak time. (I still have my train receipt to prove this, even though the ticket lady took my actual ticket). So I definitely wasn’t avoiding the fare. The reason why I didn’t noticed this price difference at the time was because I was in a rush. However, at the time I did not mention this information to the ticket lady as I wasn’t aware.

Anyways, I guess I am wondering is my ticket considered valid then as it isn’t technically discounted? Should I bring up this point or just pay the fee? Do you guys think I have a solid argument? I know the other side to the argument is I “intended” to use the discounted fair price but the T&C doesn’t mention intention. However it does mention “use of” but isn’t a rail card considered used when you get a discounted ticket? I couldn’t fine any definition of what “using a rail card” means, besides getting a discounted ticket price.

Also the fact that someone is contacting me does this mean I’m being persecuted? Will this show up on my dbs record, I’m currently doing placements in the health field, possibly will love to work with kids, so perhaps I’ll have to do enhanced dbs? So what actually happens next, the ticket lady was vague and didn’t give me any details? Will I actually go to court? Do I need a lawyer or something? I’m currently in my final year and starting to do placements so I don’t want to get screwed by the law or worse deported (okay I know I’m going to far with the last bit).

But yeah I do tend to overthink a bit. It also doesn’t help, that it seems like that you may have to wait up to 6mts, and I have been noticing some people on here not getting any notices at all till years later. Which would be quite bad for me as I’m only in the UK for one more year. And I rather not deal with a long distance legal battle.

Sorry for my many questions, just a little bit nervous and annoyed I couldn’t just pay the fine in the beginning. In the end I don’t care if I have to pay the 20/24 pound fine, I just don’t want this offense to be recorded. Also sorry for my ignorance on UK laws & correct terms but thank you for reading!

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello first time poster here, sorry for the long post! To start off I’m an international uni student from the US.

So the other day I was traveling by southern railways from Eastbourne to Brighton, one way, with an expired 16-25 rail card, it expired in September.

(In my defense I had no idea it was expired since the last time I traveled by rail was back in March when I was traveling back to the US due to Covid). But yeah I know, this is considered an excuse.

Anyways at Brighton, after being told my card was expired I offer to pay the fine/fare however, I was told I was unable to do this, and I have to wait for someone to contact me via post or call (I gave my accurate details, though I am second guessing a bit if I gave the right post code, since I recently moved). However, I find this situation strange because I heard you can pay the fine immediately, so how come this wasn’t given to me as an option? I even asked if somehow I can contact the people who are going to contact me but I was told I have to wait. Is this really true, is there no one I can contact? Also when I was giving my information my Miranda Rights (Caution I think, is the UK equivalent) you know the legal phrasing of “...anything you say can be used against you in court etc.” was given me by the ticket lady, is this considered bad...a recordable offense?

Now ordinarily I don’t mind fessing up and paying for my mistakes, however, I started looking closely at the T&C and I noticed that they applied when the rail card is used to purchase a “discounted ticket” the thing is my ticket wasn’t discounted, in fact I ended up paying .10 cents more. A normal ticket cost 11.90 but I ended up paying 12.00 since I was traveling during peak time. (I still have my train receipt to prove this, even though the ticket lady took my actual ticket). So I definitely wasn’t avoiding the fare. The reason why I didn’t noticed this price difference at the time was because I was in a rush. However, at the time I did not mention this information to the ticket lady as I wasn’t aware.

Anyways, I guess I am wondering is my ticket considered valid then as it isn’t technically discounted? Should I bring up this point or just pay the fee? Do you guys think I have a solid argument? I know the other side to the argument is I “intended” to use the discounted fair price but the T&C doesn’t mention intention. However it does mention “use of” but isn’t a rail card considered used when you get a discounted ticket? I couldn’t fine any definition of what “using a rail card” means, besides getting a discounted ticket price.

Also the fact that someone is contacting me does this mean I’m being persecuted? Will this show up on my dbs record, I’m currently doing placements in the health field, possibly will love to work with kids, so perhaps I’ll have to do enhanced dbs? So what actually happens next, the ticket lady was vague and didn’t give me any details? Will I actually go to court? Do I need a lawyer or something? I’m currently in my final year and starting to do placements so I don’t want to get screwed by the law or worse deported (okay I know I’m going to far with the last bit).

But yeah I do tend to overthink a bit. It also doesn’t help, that it seems like that you may have to wait up to 6mts, and I have been noticing some people on here not getting any notices at all till years later. Which would be quite bad for me as I’m only in the UK for one more year. And I rather not deal with a long distance legal battle.

Sorry for my many questions, just a little bit nervous and annoyed I couldn’t just pay the fine in the beginning. In the end I don’t care if I have to pay the 20/24 pound fine, I just don’t want this offense to be recorded. Also sorry for my ignorance on UK laws & correct terms but thank you for reading!

There's other recent threads on this you can have a look at.

Try these two and peruse the answers posted as I think they are relevant

Original post removed was about an invalid railcard used in error IIR:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/discount-card-south-western.210625/

and
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/help-given-caution-for-forgotten-railcard-valid.210496/

Paying Fine Immediately: I think you are maybe muddling this up with a 'Penalty Fare' which operates in certain areas / routes. I don't think Eastbourne to Brighton is a penalty fare zone, though I have not looked - you can check Southern's website for Penalty Fare scheme details. Even if it was they don't have to offer that option. In which case it would not be circa £20 penalty it would likely be notably higher than that so it is important you take steps to engage with this and if you are in the right, get this over turned.

I suspect the discount you mention in the T&C's means discounted due to the railcard (ie 34% off), not the discount at off peak time (yes I know it's complicated, sorry) [edit - I'd not checked the fares or peak times on the route when writing that]

I don't think you have a case at first glance. You must have had a ticket discounted with a Railcard that was not valid for use due to expiry or the barrier line staff would surely not have noticed the Railcard discount applied against the ticket you gave them to check? I mean if the Railcard wasn't used to reduce the fare you bought how did it become a discussion when the ticket was checked? Have I misunderstood something?

But please state the time of train you caught as it helps check the fare you should have paid. Was it a single or return ticket you had?

You might also want to think about going to the student union for help if you think it's worth challenging this, but I guess wait for a few more responses on here so you can get a consensus from us first.

Being contacted:
V likely this will be by post so watch out for real mail and don't ignore it - it will probably be less than 6 months. If you move house make arrangements for your mail to be forwarded (see Royal Mail redirect service on their website), if you have not heard by the time you leave UK to go back to USA you could try and contact the train company by e-mail / think about ignoring it - might not work / set up overseas post redirect.

Finally, when the Train company contact you they will ask for your explanation so have a think now / keep notes of what happened / your receipt etc as you will need to reply to them in writing - it can be pretty simple - 'I made a mistake, no intention to evade fare, apologize etc etc). Feel free to post your draft here - try and keep it short - and people can advise on wording likely to be most helpful in terms of minimising any penalty.

Good luck with it

PS - notwithstanding the unfortunate ticket mistake I hope you enjoyed the nice journey Eastbourne to Brighton through the south downs and the magnificent view of the Long Man of Wilmington carved into the chalk hill, south of the line near Berwick!

 

[Haywain]

is this considered bad...a recordable offense?

No, this was not a caution thta results in a police or criminal record, it is more a warning that what you say is being kept on record and may be presnted to a court.

Now ordinarily I don’t mind fessing up and paying for my mistakes, however, I started looking closely at the T&C and I noticed that they applied when the rail card is used to purchase a “discounted ticket” the thing is my ticket wasn’t discounted, in fact I ended up paying .10 cents more. A normal ticket cost 11.90 but I ended up paying 12.00 since I was traveling during peak time. (I still have my train receipt to prove this, even though the ticket lady took my actual ticket). So I definitely wasn’t avoiding the fare. The reason why I didn’t noticed this price difference at the time was because I was in a rush. However, at the time I did not mention this information to the ticket lady as I wasn’t aware.

Anyways, I guess I am wondering is my ticket considered valid then as it isn’t technically discounted? Should I bring up this point or just pay the fee? Do you guys think I have a solid argument? I know the other side to the argument is I “intended” to use the discounted fair price but the T&C doesn’t mention intention. However it does mention “use of” but isn’t a rail card considered used when you get a discounted ticket? I couldn’t fine any definition of what “using a rail card” means, besides getting a discounted ticket price.

This is an argument you can present to the train company when they contact you.

does this mean I’m being persecuted?

You may feel persecuted, but it doesn't mean you are yet being prosecuted.

But please state the time of train you caught as it helps check the fare you should have paid.

The undiscounted single fare is £11.90, so the time of travel is not relevant.

 

[30907]

Welcome to the forum - even in these circumstances.

Could you just confirm that the ticket you actually bought was the Anytime Day Single (which might have a code SDS on it), and not a higher priced one such as an Anytime Day Return (code SDR) - an easy mistake on some machines?
I ask, because I am puzzled that the machine/booking site issued a ticket at a higher price than the full fare - the Southern website won't, I've just checked.

If it was, then you should certainly point out in your reply that you gained no benefit from applying the railcard discount, and ask them to drop the matter - no harm in trying.

In an ideal world, an alert member of staff at Brighton might have spotted this; it is very unlikely that a person sending an automated standard letter will, I'm afraid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Scheidt & Bachmann machines will warn you about it but will still issue the higher priced "discounted" ticket. The reason for this goes back to when Virgin West Coast allowed Off Peak tickets to be used as per Anytime tickets if they were Railcard discounted, therefore paying the extra made sense.

Assuming this is the case I could imagine someone might just press OK without properly reading the message.

 

[furlong]

Quite obviously there are no circumstances in which the company should have issued such a ticket to anybody, so you should expect to receive a 10p refund, a nice apology, additional compensation for any anxiety caused by the company's mistake, and a promise that the company is taking action to prevent anything like this from happening again by fixing its software and briefing its staff about the problem.

Had you asked a website (or a human in a ticket office or anywhere else) for a ticket for this journey with a railcard, you would have correctly been issued with the anytime single without any railcard requirement, and if there's going to be any argument you should record that sequence from a website and remind the company of its obligations (relating to overcharging) under the Consumer Regulations.

Anyways, I guess I am wondering is my ticket considered valid then as it isn’t technically discounted?

That would be the line of argument I would take if it came to it - that notwithstanding any mention of the railcard on the printed ticket, it was not in fact a discounted ticket carrying an obligation to be accompanied by a railcard, but rather an over-priced ticket of no utility to any passenger whatsoever and consequently issued in error, with the company misrepresenting the correct fare due for the journey potentially breaching its obligations under the Consumer Regulations.

Even if you had not been stopped, you would have been entitled to write to the company to insist that they reimburse the extra 10 pence.

 

[WesternLancer]

That would be the line of argument I would take if it came to it - that notwithstanding any mention of the railcard on the printed ticket, it was not in fact a discounted ticket carrying an obligation to be accompanied by a railcard, but rather an over-priced ticket of no utility to any passenger whatsoever and consequently issued in error, with the company misrepresenting the correct fare due for the journey potentially breaching its obligations under the Consumer Regulations.

Even if you had not been stopped, you would have been entitled to write to the company to insist that they reimburse the extra 10 pence.

But this is my question to which we need an answer if possible - if the ticket was not discounted by a Railcard - and an Anytime single at £11.90 is not discounted, why did the barrier line staff ask anything about a Railcard? The ticket would not have had 'Railcard' details on it. So what happened? Did they just assume any young person has a Railcard and thus asked about it - and because the OP had had a Railcard before showed an out of date one (instead of saying "I did not buy this ticket with a Railcard"), and the staff did not check the ticket again before commencing the caution process. I'm starting to think that may be the chain of events.

Might also be of help for the OP to say where she bought the ticket - eg ticket machine at station or via an on line purchase or some other option.

Hopefully the OP can return and add a bit of extra detail to help clarify.

 

[_toommm_]

But this is my question to which we need an answer if possible - if the ticket was not discounted by a Railcard - and an Anytime single at £11.90 is not discounted, why did the barrier line staff ask anything about a Railcard? The ticket would not have had 'Railcard' details on it. So what happened? Did they just assume any young person has a Railcard and thus asked about it - and because the OP had had a Railcard before showed an out of date one (instead of saying "I did not buy this ticket with a Railcard"), and the staff did not check the ticket again before commencing the caution process. I'm starting to think that may be the chain of events.

Might also be of help for the OP to say where she bought the ticket - eg ticket machine at station or via an on line purchase or some other option.

Hopefully the OP can return and add a bit of extra detail to help clarify.

Or was it the case that because it was a £12 fare, the ticket had details of the railcard on it and the barriers were set to reject Railcard discounted tickets at the time?

 

[WesternLancer]

Or was it the case that because it was a £12 fare, the ticket had details of the railcard on it and the barriers were set to reject Railcard discounted tickets at the time?

well maybe, but if so what fare was it? We need the OP to clarify which will not be easy as she no longer has the ticket since the staff member retained it. I mean was it a ticket to somewhere else (not Brighton) that cost exactly £12 after a Railcard deduction was applied - ie 10p more than the anytime single Eastbourne to Brighton that costs £11.90 - and this is a complete case of confusion at more than one level?

 

[_toommm_]

well maybe, but if so what fare was it? We need the OP to clarify which will not be easy as she no longer has the ticket since the staff member retained it. I mean was it a ticket to somewhere else (not Brighton) that cost exactly £12 after a Railcard deduction was applied - ie 10p more than the anytime single Eastbourne to Brighton that costs £11.90 - and this is a complete case of confusion at more than one level?

Off Peak Day Return @ £11.70 or Anytime Day Single @ £11.90

 

[WesternLancer]

Off Peak Day Return @ £11.70 or Anytime Day Single @ £11.90

Yes, so neither being £12, which is what the OP says she paid, and those prices are not reduced by the application of a Railcard discount unless I have it wrong.

@LilyRose can you tell us any more about the ticket you had:

- where you bought it
- how you bought it
- did you sleect Railcard discount at any stage during the purchase of the ticket
- where you believe it was to and from
- what sort of ticket was it if you know (Anytime, Off Peak, single, return etc)

does the receipt you kept have any relevant details on it? (upload a picture of it maybe, if you wish redact any details of your bank etc)

 

[furlong]

Some ticket machines are known to mistakenly issue a "discounted" ticket at the minimum fare higher than the correct non-discounted fare for the journey. A confusing and misleading jargon-ridden message is displayed before doing so, giving the user the opportunity to go back, but that provides the company with no mitigation when there are zero circumstances in which such a fare should be sold.

 

[_toommm_]

Yes, so neither being £12, which is what the OP says she paid, and those prices are not reduced by the application of a Railcard discount unless I have it wrong.

@LilyRose can you tell us any more about the ticket you had:

- where you bought it
- how you bought it
- did you sleect Railcard discount at any stage during the purchase of the ticket
- where you believe it was to and from
- what sort of ticket was it if you know (Anytime, Off Peak, single, return etc)

does the receipt you kept have any relevant details on it? (upload a picture of it maybe, if you wish redact any details of your bank etc)

Just reread the original post, and they paid £11.90 so Anytime Day Single, but they tried to use a railcard and probably pressed ok so it made it £12. There’s still lots of TVMs that do this, the ones that EMT use at Sheffield do this.

 

[Western Sunset]

So has our American friend done anything wrong, except being overcharged by 10p?

 

[WesternLancer]

Some ticket machines are known to mistakenly issue a "discounted" ticket at the minimum fare higher than the correct non-discounted fare for the journey. A confusing and misleading jargon-ridden message is displayed before doing so, giving the user the opportunity to go back, but that provides the company with no mitigation when there are zero circumstances in which such a fare should be sold.

sounds totally out of order!
Lesson from this is thus presumably use ticket office.
I hope the OP can pursue this, if this is the case.

Sounds to me like the OP will need help writing the best response to Southern in that case. And also that the OP probably did select 'railcard' against the ticket without realizing that hers was no longer valid, and thus travel with a Railcard that is not valid, pays too much - but still has the wrong ticket and is technically liable for prosecution.

Analogous to our recent friend from Cricklewood who got penalized for missing his stop and then trying to get out at St Pancras, despite having paid more for his ticket then he needed to pay, and still getting asked for £59 from GTR (Southern' s parent company IIRC) to avoid court action...

So has our American friend done anything wrong, except being overcharged by 10p?

Might still have travelled with a Railcard discounted ticket when had no valid Railcard, and paid more for the privilege than she owed...

 

[furlong]

Terms and conditions:

4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare.

The fare was NOT above the minimum fare, so no discount can be applied. The £12 ticket was issued contrary to the railcard terms and conditions. There is - quite sensibly - no provision to issue a ticket at the minimum fare when that is higher than the normal fare. Focus on the company's mistake by issuing the wrong ticket and everything else as a consequence of that: When that mistake is corrected for, the passenger is in possession of a valid ticket (and a 10p refund) and the railcard expiry date is of no consequence.

 

[Haywain]

Sounds to me like the OP will need help writing the best response to Southern in that case.

I think the OP needs to wait for a letter from the train company, and the response should be fairly simple - just state the facts of being charged more then the undiscounted fare, and thank them for pointing out that the railcard had expired even though it wasn't needed at the time. The OP seems quite able to put words together and should be capable of dealing with this having been appraised of the relevant facts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some ticket machines are known to mistakenly issue a "discounted" ticket at the minimum fare higher than the correct non-discounted fare for the journey. A confusing and misleading jargon-ridden message is displayed before doing so, giving the user the opportunity to go back, but that provides the company with no mitigation when there are zero circumstances in which such a fare should be sold.

There are reasons why one might want to use a Railcard even if it costs more, for example the former Virgin situation I mentioned above, or accepting a Network Railcard minimum adult fare so as to use the child discount. It's too complex to work all that logic out (and change it every time it changes), so you are able to accept a Railcard minimum fare if you want.

It's not mistaken, it's quite intentional.

The £12 ticket was issued contrary to the railcard terms and conditions. There is - quite sensibly - no provision to issue a ticket at the minimum fare when that is higher than the normal fare.

There is, and I have explained why.

 

[furlong]

There are reasons why one might want to use a Railcard even if it costs more, for example the former Virgin situation I mentioned above, or accepting a Network Railcard minimum adult fare so as to use the child discount. It's too complex to work all that logic out (and change it every time it changes), so you are able to accept a Railcard minimum fare if you want.

It's not mistaken, it's quite intentional.

We are talking about the 16-25 railcard. There is no such provision in the terms and conditions nor any relevance to the journey - or line of route - in question here. If Virgin wanted to make some special higher railcard fares with additional benefits it's for them to determine how to reconcile that with the terms and conditions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We are talking about the 16-25 railcard. There is no such provision in the terms and conditions nor any relevance to the journey - or line of route - in question here. If Virgin wanted to make some special higher railcard fares it's for them to determine how to reconcile that with the terms and conditions.

I was merely explaining the reason why the TVMs have this feature as a standard thing - all S&B TVMs have it, and possibly also the others.

I thought the message was reasonably clear, to be honest.

 

[furlong]

I was merely explaining the reason why the TVMs have this feature as a standard thing - all S&B TVMs have it, and possibly also the others.

Feature or not, it should not be enabled for journeys where the only benefit is to the company in overcharging its passengers contrary to the Consumer Regulations - and where it was deliberate, such as the Virgin example you suggest, the question asked should explicitly ascertain that that is the reason the passenger is making the selection of the higher-priced version of the ticket. None of the wording on the machines I've seen is satisfactory for the case where the passenger has no pre-existing idea why of they are being given the choice. But this is getting off-topic. Haywain has the right idea.

 

[island]

I think rather than starting to cite regulations and technical jargon, this should be kept extremely simple.

When the train company contacts you to ask for your side of the story, simply point out that because of the minimum fare you paid 10 pence (not cents) more than the correct fare for your journey, and in view of this state that you feel you have not avoided any fare by virtue of your inadvertent use of the Railcard discount. As such, you would appreciate if they confirmed that the matter will be taken no further.

In the event that the issue does eventually make its way to court, I hope the magistrates/district judge would consider it an abuse of process.

 

[_toommm_]

What I worry is that (I'm not sure whether Southern use any external companies for this); they may take a dim view on the OP attempting to use their railcard, especially because it was a few months out of date at the point of when the OP was confronted, and they may say that the OP may have benefitted from the expired railcard before, or would have benefitted if it was post-10:00.

I'm not trying to scare the OP, merely prepare them for this line of discourse incase it comes up down the road.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I can see that holding up in court

 

[Western Sunset]

The OP said she'd not used it since March. It expired in Sept.

 

[MikeWh]

especially because it was a few months out of date at the point of when the OP was confronted

Expired September, attempted use October?

 

[_toommm_]

I can see that holding up in court

I'm not sure whether that's meant to be sarcasm?

 

[RPI]

I know the S&B TVM's show a warning something like "Fare with railcard £12.00 fare without railcard £1.70" and says something like "tap ok if you still want to use the railcard", although as others have said,no fare has been avoided here and when written too maybe reply in a firm but polite way pointing this out.

 

[gray1404]

If the OP is at Eastbourne again soon I wonder if there is any merit in them using their phone to recording the screens on the ticket machine showing it offer a ticket that it should not be selling, that is the ticket at £12.00 with a railcard discount applied. Rather then the £11.90 ticket before 10.00

Might it also be worth raising a separate complaint with Southern (GTR) Customer Service now, pointing out the error with their ticket machine. There is a chance they may see the issue and respond (in writing or by email) agreeing that before 10.00 the "discounted" ticket should not have been sold for £12.00, and the OP should have been sold an £11.90 undiscounted ticket. At the least if they committed to getting this fault fixed, it would be useful evidence to produce to GTR when they write to the OP about the report they have received from their ticket inspector. I say this because of course we all know the departments don't always speak to each other - the customer service and revenue departments being two separate departments. If Customer Service do not see the issue there is the option for having this looked at by a Manager and the Rail Ombudsman. That way the OP may get ahead of the game in trying to gather evidence for when they get the letter about the report.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Once again, the ticket machine works like that on purpose. It is not an error, and I've explained why several times upthread.