TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[Bletchleyite]

The Conwy Valley provision between bus and rail really needs sorting out

I thought sorting it out was on the cards. Has the TfW order for the electric buses for it been cancelled?

I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be one service per hour, clockface, two buses and one train in each three hour cycle. The timings are close to identical. Make it good and properly integrated (one set of fares) and the market can be grown for bus and rail together.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I thought sorting it out was on the cards. Has the TfW order for the electric buses for it been cancelled?

I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be one service per hour, clockface, two buses and one train in each three hour cycle. The timings are close to identical. Make it good and properly integrated (one set of fares) and the market can be grown for bus and rail together.

Thinking more about the coordination of times, ticketing, promotion and publicity. TfW has a strategic aim to "To help integrate Welsh buses, we’re working towards building one network, one timetable and one ticket" as noted in their 5 year strategy doc. Let's hope that's the case. As for electric buses... Not been cancelled AFAIK but definitely behind schedule!

 

[Russel]

That's just Llew Jones really. It's not widespread from my experience in North Wales.

I'm not so sure, my last few visits have included using the Snowdon Sherpa network which seems to consistently run around 10 minutes late, almost as if there isn't enough slack in the timetable to be able to stick to it.

The North Wales Coast services seem to loose time after Chester towards the coast fairly regularly too.

Delays just seem more pronounced in North Wales.

 

[James H]

I'd always recommend the other way, as emerging into the Blaenau moonscape from the tunnel, and climbing steeply up to the Crimea Pass on the bus, are both pretty spectacular. Though either way it's a great route by whichever mode!

It was a Sunday afternoon IIRC and the times only worked for doing it that way round.

Even going southbound, the bus struggled over the Crimea pass with even the regulars making comments about getting out and giving it a push

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was a Sunday afternoon IIRC and the times only worked for doing it that way round.

Even going southbound, the bus struggled over the Crimea pass with even the regulars making comments about getting out and giving it a push

Just imagine if as much effort went into the Snowdonia/Conwy Valley local services as the Lakes. Imagine it on an open topper!

 

[johntrawscymru]

This is living proof of what will happen if more nationalisation comes in. Incompetent prats running things with no clue what they are doing. A flaming monkey could do a better job than these twits at TrawsCymru. Just a shed load of greed's sods leaching off taxpayers while providing nothing in return.

Same for incompetent prats at Traveling Cymru who can't update timetables on the national journey planner despite someone literally pointing out the errors to them and consistently pointing out the faults.

There's no accountability and no care for passengers.

Every time I have brought it up with Welsh ministers, they say they have no plans to sort it as they believe everything is working. Incompetent Labour ministers propping up failing arms lengths companies because they don't want to admit that they are too incompetent to run things.

It's a shame about the T19, but not surprising.

I've used it a fair few times, this is only my personal experience but the loadings have always been light and the time keeping sloppy.

That said, I don't think sloppy time keeping is unique to the T19, from experience, it seems to be a general theme when it comes to public transport in North Wales.

That's just Llew Jones really. It's not widespread from my experience in North Wales.

You must be right it is North Wales.

Take the T3 . It was impossible in 2016 for it to meet the Traffic Commissioners Guidelines that 95% of services reached timing points no more than 5 minutes late and the T3 still does not meet the guidelines.now. The non compliance is at such a level that the Traffic Commissioner should be imposing fines but hey ho the Welsh Government have removed the UK Traffic Commissioner from Birmingham and he is now devolved to the Welsh Government(WG)

The problem was tackled in 2016 by employing an illegal delayed departure of 10 minutes on top of the 5 minute connection time.to give a total wait time in Dolgellau of 15 minutes, which failed to work. T2 services stood for 15 minutes waiting for a T3 non arrival

On 03/05/2016 the Traffic Commissioner, (then the UK Traffic Commissioner responsible for Wales), instructed the Trawscymru Network Manager to reduce the 10 minute delayed departure to 5 minutes.

I am aware of the contents of paragraph 13 of the Statutory Quality Partnership Scheme for the T2 and T3 services. This paragraph is entitled 'Interchanges' and states the following;


The Scheme specifies that recognised connecting services shall arrive at the Primary Interchange Points a minimum of 5 minutes before the scheduled departure time

I do not consider that the wording of this paragraph permits the late running of services as the requirements of the Public Service Vehicles (Registration of Local Services) Regulations 1986 and the Transport Act 1985 must still be met.

In 2016 only 66.67% of T3 services met the requirement to reach a timing point within 5 minutes of their advertised arrival time set against a standard of 95%. This was not changed by the Traffic Commissioners ruling but what did change was the T2 could leave Dolgellau after 10 minutes and this made an amazing difference to the ability of the T2 to connect with the T1 to Carmarthen in Aberystwyth.

Notes of the Meeting of the TrawsCymru T2 and T3 Delivery Group – Wednesday 12 October 2016

Bus Users Cymru Update the T3 service is still struggling at 66.67% of journeys being punctual at key timing points.

On 01/01/2018 the change of 03/05/2016 requested by the Traffic Commissioner was cleverly reversed by employing a timed wait of 10 minutes, (instead of 5 minutes), and the legal delayed departure of 5 minutes . The T3 is therefore still non compliant with the Traffic Commissioner's guidelines on 2 counts.

(1) The Traffic Commissioners guidelines record

the traffic commissioners do not expect to find undue recovery time inserted in the timetable towards the end of a journey.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ads/attachment_data/file/1025909/STATDO_1.PDF

The T3 from Wrexham to Barmouth is non compliant in that it is employing an undue recovery time in Dolgellau 10 miles from its final destination. Adding 5 minutes to the timetabled wait is adding undue recovery time.

(2) 95 % of T3 services from Wrexham to Barmouth do not reach Dolgellau within 5 minutes of their advertised arrival time, That is patently obvious when it needs the T2 service to wait for 15 minutes and even after 15 minutes the T3 from Wrexham frequently does not arrive.

The net result is that the strategic T2/T1 North/South route which has no other alternative public transport option is dysfunctional. All because the T3 has not been designed as a Trawscymru long distance service.

Before someone reminds me I have mentioned this in the past. Apologies for that

 

[WAB]

It's a shame about North Wales. Llew Jones was always a decent coach operator though their bus operations are perfunctory at best. However, after three scandalous collapses (Express, GHA and Padarn), an apathetic Arriva, and a raft of "not brilliant" indies (e.g. Johns Travel, Goodsir), you wonder whether there will ever be conditions for some decent investment and service provision.

(Note: I will say Lloyds are ok, whilst Caelloi and Clynnog used to be functional though it's some years since I sampled them).

The Conwy Valley provision between bus and rail really needs sorting out

The situation in northwest wales away from the coastal areas is rather dire. The Arriva depots at Bangor and Llandudno are suitable enough for services into Porthmadog etc. but Arriva has no appetite for such things. I've summarised the position in the area below. I suppose one of the Pwllheli operators might be up for it and liven up the garage run over the 3 and 3B route via Porthmadog (it only needs one bus), but it'd be a 0600 start for the driver so they might run out of hours, and might not be too popular! Otherwise, maybe Gwynfor would be up for it, albeit with an even longer garage run and the same drivers hours issue. Lloyds might be interested but the appropriate dead running times on their routes from their Dolgellau depot up to Porthmadog and Blaenau Ffestiniog are already filled by garage runs for the 3B. Llew Jones could be persuaded to keep the school run on, but if not, that would add to the difficulty - Facebook indicates that the school runs are very popular.

More widely, the lack of operators willing to take on work in this part of North Wales does not bode well for the future. Not much money to be had, cost of staff, and lack of economies of scale. Maybe a PTE setup for North Wales is needed, removing responsibility from the LAs? Might have a few benefits.

Operator	Peak vehicle requirement	Number of routes	Depot(s)	Notes
Caelloi	2	1	Pwllheli	Porthmadog-Pwllheli
Nefyn	3	5	Nefyn nr Pwllheli	Variations of Pwllheli-Nefyn
Llew Jones	7	10	Llanwrust	Mainly Blaenau Ffestiniog-Llandudno with some services to Denbigh and Cowen
Lloyds Coaches	? (41 in fleet)	21 (6 in-area)	Machynlleth Dolgellau	Services in Porthmadog and Blaenau Ffestiniog, all resourced by live runs from Dolgellau
Gwynfor Coaches	28	17	Llangefni	Services around Llangefni and Caernarfon
Clynnog & Trefor	2	2	Trefor (halfway between Pwllheli and Caernarfon)	Caernarfon-Pwllheli
Berwyn Coaches	5	6	Trefor	Pwllheli local services
K&P	2	2	Pentre Berw nr Llangefni	Bangor-North Anglesey and T10 Bangor-Corwen
Dilwyn’s Coaches	3	16	Caernarfon	Primarily Blaenau Ffestiniog, Bangor and Caernarfon town services

 

[johntrawscymru]

For years I persevered with the T2/T1 last service of the day through Dolgellau and through Aberystwyth. The normal situation was for the T2 to wait 10 minutes in Dolgellau for the T3 to arrive from Wrexham. No T3 arrives therefore the T2 waits another 5 minutes.

What has to also be remembered in this ridiculous scenario is that not only the link between the T2 and the T1 to Carmarthen in Aberystwyth was at stake but also the link to the London train in Machynleth..

Are you just making up passenger flows as you go along? People are not using the T2 and T1 go to Carmarthen for London services, nor are they using the T1 to Aber then T2 to Mach to catch the train. They will go via Shrewsbury and Birmingham.

Incompetent prats running things with no clue what they are doing. A flaming monkey could do a better job than these twits at TrawsCymru. Just a shed load of greed's sods leaching off taxpayers while providing nothing in return.

Don't mince your words there!

You have spent the last SEVEN years complaining about a connection issue. An issue that has appeared in the local press on numerous occasions.... raised by you.

Forgot to mention this in my last post.
I was not making up flows.
I did NOT mention using the T2 and T1 go to Carmarthen for London services, nor did I mention using the T1 to Aber then T2 to Mach to catch the train.
The comment I made was in relation to the T2 waits in Dolgellau to wait for late running T3 services from Wrexham which were destroying the links of the Southbound T2 to the London train in Machynleth along with those of the T2/T1 in Aberystwyth.

Also just a word of warning that if you heavily criticise the Welsh Government(WG), and you contact Ministers and complain you may find that your contributions end up in an ITable which the WG will then use to show you are "vexatious". The WG do not like being called Incompetent prats and will bite you back someday.

My contributions to this Forum featured in an ITable which was presented to the Information Commissioner along with my letters to the press, to Council members,to my own Assembly Member and of course to Ministers . The only letters I wrote to the Press were to 2 small local newspapers the Cambrian News and the West Wales Chronicle but somehow the WG managed to get hold of them and they appeared in the ITable.

Of course you would not write a letter to a newspaper referring to Incompetent prats but merely a letter complaining about bus service provision can result in you being allocated an ITable.

The WG monitor this thread. It is just a great shame that they do not respond to the complaints and suggestions made on the Forum.

 

[markymark2000]

Forgot to mention this in my last post.
I was not making up flows.
I did NOT mention using the T2 and T1 go to Carmarthen for London services, nor did I mention using the T1 to Aber then T2 to Mach to catch the train.
The comment I made was in relation to the T2 waits in Dolgellau to wait for late running T3 services from Wrexham which were destroying the links of the Southbound T2 to the London train in Machynleth along with those of the T2/T1 in Aberystwyth.

Also just a word of warning that if you heavily criticise the Welsh Government(WG), and you contact Ministers and complain you may find that your contributions end up in an ITable which the WG will then use to show you are "vexatious". The WG do not like being called Incompetent prats and will bite you back someday.

My contributions to this Forum featured in an ITable which was presented to the Information Commissioner along with my letters to the press, to Council members,to my own Assembly Member and of course to Ministers . The only letters I wrote to the Press were to 2 small local newspapers the Cambrian News and the West Wales Chronicle but somehow the WG managed to get hold of them and they appeared in the ITable.

Of course you would not write a letter to a newspaper referring to Incompetent prats but merely a letter complaining about bus service provision can result in you being allocated an ITable.

The WG monitor this thread. It is just a great shame that they do not respond to the complaints and suggestions made on the Forum.

They give the CCP a run for their money with how the WG is ran!

 

[GusB]

They give the CCP a run for their money with how the WG is ran!

On googling CCP, the first results that come up are for the Chinese Communist Party. I know you're not a big fan of Labour-run governments, but I don't think the Welsh Government is that bad!

Could we have a definition, please?

 

[markymark2000]

On googling CCP, the first results that come up are for the Chinese Communist Party. I know you're not a big fan of Labour-run governments, but I don't think the Welsh Government is that bad!

Could we have a definition, please?

You hit the nail on the head. That's who I meant. Dictator Dripford.

(Sorry, not the answer you wanted).

As a genuine response to what John says, I will already be on that list. I've happily emailed Traveling Cymru, TrawsCymru, Welsh Ministers and various councils calling out the incompetence of certain Welsh Government agencies (whether direct agencies or arms lengths). These people are in public office being paid by taxpayers, they should be held accountable.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You hit the nail on the head. That's who I meant. Dictator Dripford.

(Sorry, not the answer you wanted).

As a genuine response to what John says, I will already be on that list. I've happily emailed Traveling Cymru, TrawsCymru, Welsh Ministers and various councils calling out the incompetence of certain Welsh Government agencies (whether direct agencies or arms lengths). These people are in public office being paid by taxpayers, they should be held accountable.

I'm sorry but that's hyperbole. You may not like the WG but to compare them with the Chinese Communist Party is facile; a Godwin's Law for the 21st century.

 

[TAS]

More widely, the lack of operators willing to take on work in this part of North Wales does not bode well for the future. Not much money to be had, cost of staff, and lack of economies of scale. Maybe a PTE setup for North Wales is needed, removing responsibility from the LAs? Might have a few benefits.

When (or if?) the Welsh Government's plan for nationwide bus franchising comes to fruition, there will be a regional role via the existing Corporate Joint Committees (CJCs) - to quote last year's white paper:

Under this model, local authorities would develop a plan for a bus network that meets the need of their communities. CJCs would then be responsible for bringing these together to agree a regional plan. Transport for Wales would work with them, on behalf of the Welsh Government, to combine these networks into a national plan to be reviewed by the members of the supervisory board and agreed by Ministers. At each of these stages we would expect Transport for Wales to offer specialist network planning support and work with local authorities and CJCs to help develop their plans and ensure they are well integrated with rail services across Wales.

 

[M803UYA]

Forgot to mention this in my last post.
I was not making up flows.
I did NOT mention using the T2 and T1 go to Carmarthen for London services, nor did I mention using the T1 to Aber then T2 to Mach to catch the train.
The comment I made was in relation to the T2 waits in Dolgellau to wait for late running T3 services from Wrexham which were destroying the links of the Southbound T2 to the London train in Machynleth along with those of the T2/T1 in Aberystwyth.

Also just a word of warning that if you heavily criticise the Welsh Government(WG), and you contact Ministers and complain you may find that your contributions end up in an ITable which the WG will then use to show you are "vexatious". The WG do not like being called Incompetent prats and will bite you back someday.

My contributions to this Forum featured in an ITable which was presented to the Information Commissioner along with my letters to the press, to Council members,to my own Assembly Member and of course to Ministers . The only letters I wrote to the Press were to 2 small local newspapers the Cambrian News and the West Wales Chronicle but somehow the WG managed to get hold of them and they appeared in the ITable.

Of course you would not write a letter to a newspaper referring to Incompetent prats but merely a letter complaining about bus service provision can result in you being allocated an ITable.

The WG monitor this thread. It is just a great shame that they do not respond to the complaints and suggestions made on the Forum.

I'm not surprised at all that the WG label you as vexatious. Your interpretation of the Traffic Commissioners statutory guidance is just that - an interpretation. It would be possible to write the timetable(s) in such a way that the 'arrival' time in Dolgellau is not declared at all.

On a monitoring exercise, the departure would be monitored and measured on a timetable simply showing an departure time. You're measured on the arrival time at the destination.

That's a perfectly proper way to write a timetable and register it with the traffic commissioner. It's also worth remembering that the public facing timetable and the one lodged with the traffic commissioners office don't have to be identical. So this is clear, you can declare 'timing points' on a registered timetable and switch them off on a public facing one. You can even register a timetable with timing points that don't marry up in either direction - all perfectly legal. If I were working at Lloyds (who run the route and are legally responsible for it's operation) I'd resolve the 'issue' by not declaring an arrival time in Dolgellau on the registered timetable, and simply show a departure time. So as long as I declared a timing point at 15 mile intervals I've got a compliant service registration.

You appear surprised that a government can locate letters written to a local newspaper. I'm not surprised at all. Governments will have people working within them who can locate such things fairly easily! If you're prepared to 'go public' it can't be a surprise, surely, that what you put out is noted and retained for future reference?

 

[asb]

I'm not surprised at all that the WG label you as vexatious. Your interpretation of the Traffic Commissioners statutory guidance is just that - an interpretation. It would be possible to write the timetable(s) in such a way that the 'arrival' time in Dolgellau is not declared at all.

On a monitoring exercise, the departure would be monitored and measured on a timetable simply showing an departure time. You're measured on the arrival time at the destination.

That's a perfectly proper way to write a timetable and register it with the traffic commissioner. It's also worth remembering that the public facing timetable and the one lodged with the traffic commissioners office don't have to be identical. So this is clear, you can declare 'timing points' on a registered timetable and switch them off on a public facing one. You can even register a timetable with timing points that don't marry up in either direction - all perfectly legal. If I were working at Lloyds (who run the route and are legally responsible for it's operation) I'd resolve the 'issue' by not declaring an arrival time in Dolgellau on the registered timetable, and simply show a departure time. So as long as I declared a timing point at 15 mile intervals I've got a compliant service registration.

You appear surprised that a government can locate letters written to a local newspaper. I'm not surprised at all. Governments will have people working within them who can locate such things fairly easily! If you're prepared to 'go public' it can't be a surprise, surely, that what you put out is noted and retained for future reference?

Although 15 miles or less is needed from a distance perspective to count as a local route, you also need 15 mins or less between time points (unless you have a very good reason!)

 

[M803UYA]

Although 15 miles or less is needed from a distance perspective to count as a local route, you also need 15 mins or less between time points (unless you have a very good reason!)

Thanks for correcting....

 

[johntrawscymru]

I'm not surprised at all that the WG label you as vexatious. Your interpretation of the Traffic Commissioners statutory guidance is just that - an interpretation.

Mmm. The Traffic Commissioners Commissioner interprets it the way I interpret it. He did stop the illegal 10 minute delayed departures in Dolgellau. (Further Explanation on its way).

I am also certain that interpreting the Traffic Commissioner's Guidelines is not vexatious. I also think you should have consulted the Traffic Commissioner, as I did, and not base your interpretation on the meanderings of Nigel Pearson.

You're measured on the arrival time at the destination.

You are correct. You're measured on the arrival time at the destination.

It would be possible to write the timetable(s) in such a way that the 'arrival' time in Dolgellau is not declared at all.

I'd resolve the 'issue' by not declaring an arrival time in Dolgellau on the registered timetable, and simply show a departure time.

Well you would have a big problem there would you not. Firstly you would be deliberately introducing a 10 minute bit of slack for the Trawscymru T3 from Wrexham in Dolgellau 9 miles from its destination in Barmouth so that it could arrive 10 minutes before the timetabled departure time and you are therefore breaching the Traffic Commissioners Guidelines. Secondly when the T3 arrives at its true arrival time, (not that it ever does), which you now define as the departure time it is guilty of reaching Dolgellau early at -10 minutes. The rule is -1 +5 of the arrival time irrespective of where the timing point is along the journey.
Your interpretation would be contrary to the spirit of timetabling, not good for customer relations and the Traffic Commissioner would not be happy.
If you took your theory to Lloyds I think you would be laughed out of the door and you would be referred back to your advisor Nigel Pearson. No wonder Leicester are drifting down the Table as he obviously does not understand the Traffic Commissioners Guidelines. Perhaps he is asking his players to ignore the game start time and start playing at the end time.

Trawscymru is a difficult subject area and unless you have done your homework it may be better to stay at home and not jump on someone else's vexatious bandwagon.

You appear surprised that a government can locate letters written to a local newspaper. I'm not surprised at all.

No not surprised at all. I know how the Welsh Government(WG) got hold of the local press cuttings because a lady from a village on the T2 route wrote a letter to the Cambrian News and stated that she sent all letters published on the subject of Trawscymru to the WG. The only reason I mentioned it was a word of advice to another Forum member.

 

[317 forever]

Caelloi 3. Only Sundays are funded.
C&T/Berwyn 12 and Nefyn 8 are mostly commercial with some funding for evenings, Sundays and maybe some extensions.

Common sense has finally prevailed for the T7, it will now go from Bristol Bus Station rather than the obscure stop over the road.

Service Changes From Sunday, January 22nd

Bus stop change for T7 TrawsCymru and new schedule and operator for Sainsbury's shuttle

www.newportbus.co.uk

I hope AvonRiders are valid on route T7 between Bristol bus station and Cribbs Causeway.

 

[Marcus Fryer]

I hope AvonRiders are valid on route T7 between Bristol bus station and Cribbs Causeway.

Not according to the Travelwest website:

Within the AvonRider area, you can buy tickets on buses from the following operators:

• Abus
• Bath & NE Somerset Passenger Transport
• Bath Bus Company (except tour buses)
• Citistar
• CT Coaches
• Eurotaxis
• Faresaver
• First West of England
• Stagecoach West
• The Big Lemon
• Transpora

AvonRider tickets may be used on all bus services operated by the companies listed above within the AvonRider area except Airport Flyer A1, Airport Flyer A3, tour buses, express coaches and services for special events. On service A4, AvonRider is not valid between Highridge Common and Bristol Airport.

 

[GusB]

I have taken the decision to lock this thread for now. The arguments are going round in circles and, to be quite honest, it's becoming rather tedious to manage.

If there is any significant news regarding Trawscymru routes in future, by all means feel free to report this post with a brief description and we will consider re-opening the thread.

Thanks to everyone for your contributions.