TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[TheGrandWazoo]

Do we know why there is no requirement for a T1C Northbound service from Cardiff up the West side of Wales when there are 5 T4 Northbound services per day between Cardiff and Newtown. None is a pretty small number compared to five. It is definitely an advantage to have five fingers instead of none.

As explained....

The T1C only exists because of the clamour for a replacement for the 701 which was operated by Lewis of Llanrhystud and before that, Coach Travel Wales and Bryans Coaches. It really is no more than that. The 701 ran once a day, north to south, once a day (despite an attempt at one point to increase it to two) and so the T1C continues to do so.

Not only that - but they actively decided not to take the Trawscymru strategy that way, which is and was nuts.

Depends on how stringently you want to look at this.

In terms of physical connections, then they do extend services to rail stations in places like Haverfordwest and Hereford and Carmarthen. And to pick out Carmarthen, then the buses arrive some 10-15 mins before the departures to Cardiff, for instance. However, through ticketing isn't available (other than PlusBus) and when you try to book from say Aberystwyth to Cardiff, it will default to a purely rail journey on TfW website so sending you via Shrewsbury!

As @Rhydgaled points out, there will be inevitably some limited duplication with rail. I don't think anyone would seriously suggest that the service from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth should be truncated at Machynlleth just because it the rail line also follows the A487 for a major part of the route.

 

[nanstallon]

Unless the railways are prepared to reduce fares to a reasonable level, it is best for the Welsh Government to develop a bus strategy for the whole country.

 

[Dai Corner]

Unless the railways are prepared to reduce fares to a reasonable level, it is best for the WG to develop a bus strategy for the whole country.

Um, the Welsh Government owns the company which operates nearly all the trains and sets the fares in Wales

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends on how stringently you want to look at this.

In terms of physical connections, then they do extend services to rail stations in places like Haverfordwest and Hereford and Carmarthen. And to pick out Carmarthen, then the buses arrive some 10-15 mins before the departures to Cardiff, for instance. However, through ticketing isn't available (other than PlusBus) and when you try to book from say Aberystwyth to Cardiff, it will default to a purely rail journey on TfW website so sending you via Shrewsbury!

And this is the problem. Wales has a very bitty rail network, so would benefit massively from a fully integrated regional bus network supporting it as actually part of the rail system - fares in the railway fares system, buses as valid routes in the Routeing Guide etc. So, for example, if you put from Llandudno to Caernarfon in the journey planner, you get a rail and bus connection back with a single through fare issued on a train ticket.

That was a strategy considered for Traws but was rejected, which in the context of Wales was in my view an extremely poor decision. It would make less sense in most of England where the railway network is better developed to provide for most journeys and so there are far fewer situations where it would be useful (and many of those are provided for by Plusbus as they tend to be at the start or end of a journey, whereas some of the Welsh ones would be in the middle, e.g., randomly, Llanrwst to Criccieth).

As @Rhydgaled points out, there will be inevitably some limited duplication with rail. I don't think anyone would seriously suggest that the service from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth should be truncated at Machynlleth just because it the rail line also follows the A487 for a major part of the route.

As you're aware I'm not a supporter of the "Gateshead silliness" (indeed, I'd say this caused a lot of damage to the cause of fully integrated transport) so this is fine.

 

[Rhydgaled]

through ticketing isn't available (other than PlusBus) and when you try to book from say Aberystwyth to Cardiff, it will default to a purely rail journey on TfW website so sending you via Shrewsbury!

I think through fares do exist (or did in Arriva Trains Wales days) under the 'Cymru Connect' banner - but nobody knows how to sell them to you, certainly not the rail journey planner websites. Even when the Mixing Deck journey planners had the CRS codes for places like Cardigan, and would accept them as a valid destinations, they weren't able to find any services to them.

And this is the problem. Wales has a very bitty rail network, so would benefit massively from a fully integrated regional bus network supporting it as actually part of the rail system - fares in the railway fares system, buses as valid routes in the Routeing Guide etc. So, for example, if you put from Llandudno to Caernarfon in the journey planner, you get a rail and bus connection back with a single through fare issued on a train ticket.

That was a strategy considered for Traws but was rejected, which in the context of Wales was in my view an extremely poor decision. It would make less sense in most of England where the railway network is better developed to provide for most journeys and so there are far fewer situations where it would be useful (and many of those are provided for by Plusbus as they tend to be at the start or end of a journey, whereas some of the Welsh ones would be in the middle, e.g., randomly, Llanrwst to Criccieth).

I didn't realise that through fares had been considered and rejected; as noted above 'Cymru Connect' existed (in theory but not available in practice the one time I tried to book one) - it really would be a very sensible thing to do to make this sort of thing available on the rail journey planners. It can be done, through tickets are (or were) available to 'Minehead Bus' from journey planners and there may be a few more similar ones around Exeter given the station announcements were announcing buses to places not on the rail network when I was there a few years ago.

 

[Dai Corner]

I think through fares do exist (or did in Arriva Trains Wales days) under the 'Cymru Connect' banner - but nobody knows how to sell them to you, certainly not the rail journey planner websites. Even when the Mixing Deck journey planners had the CRS codes for places like Cardigan, and would accept them as a valid destinations, they weren't able to find any services to them.

I didn't realise that through fares had been considered and rejected; as noted above 'Cymru Connect' existed (in theory but not available in practice the one time I tried to book one) - it really would be a very sensible thing to do to make this sort of thing available on the rail journey planners. It can be done, through tickets are (or were) available to 'Minehead Bus' from journey planners and there may be a few more similar ones around Exeter given the station announcements were announcing buses to places not on the rail network when I was there a few years ago.

You'd think it would be fairly easy now, with both TfW Rail and TrawsCymru being under the same Government Minister.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't realise that through fares had been considered and rejected; as noted above 'Cymru Connect' existed (in theory but not available in practice the one time I tried to book one) - it really would be a very sensible thing to do to make this sort of thing available on the rail journey planners. It can be done, through tickets are (or were) available to 'Minehead Bus' from journey planners and there may be a few more similar ones around Exeter given the station announcements were announcing buses to places not on the rail network when I was there a few years ago.

To clarify, there were a few overall strategies considered for Traws, and the one that was rejected was "fully integrated with the railway network to extend its reach". There's probably an old thread on it somewhere.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think through fares do exist (or did in Arriva Trains Wales days) under the 'Cymru Connect' banner - but nobody knows how to sell them to you, certainly not the rail journey planner websites. Even when the Mixing Deck journey planners had the CRS codes for places like Cardigan, and would accept them as a valid destinations, they weren't able to find any services to them.

Neither TfW nor National Rail do so apparently. If you wanted to leave at 0830 to head to Cardiff from Aber, the bus is at 0840, change at Carm and train to Cardiff arriving at 12:46, but if you follow the journey planners, it's 0929 to Shrewsbury arriving in Cardiff at 13:42.

 

[anthony263]

We've suggested a T1C to Aberystwyth in the morning but so far I don't think tfw been.interested

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

We've suggested a T1C to Aberystwyth in the morning but so far I don't think tfw been.interested

I think they'd rather not have had to put on the T1C in the first place but political pressure to replace the 701 was brought to bear. Initially, the view was "Travel opportunities between Aberystwyth and South Wales will continue to be provided by a combination of bus and rail services” and that as from https://www.aberystwyth-today.co.uk...e resurrected'&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2016

“The 701 service was provided on a commercial basis by Lewis Coaches and due to this Ceredigion council had no direct involvement in its provision.

“While acknowledging the cessation of this service has an impact on service users it is hoped that, on the basis that there is sufficient demand, another operator will consider providing a 701, or similar, service again at some point in the future.

“However, the authority is not in a position, at this stage, to confirm whether this will be the case.”

Yet three months later, it was being provided on an initial 6 month basis because of the representations to the council. Of course, there were no representations for a facility that didn't exist (i.e. northbound in the morning)

 

[extendedpaul]

There's no logical reason to my mind why the T1C shouldn't operate daily in both directions. It would increase opportunities for overnight stays in Cardiff and Aberystwyth, offer a better service to the other towns on route, and facilitate day trips from Cardiff to Aberystwyth, which are slow and expensive by train and impractical by existing bus services via Swansea/Carmarthen or Llandrindod Wells.

At present the arrival (13.05) and departure(16.45) times in Cardiff don't even allow for attendance at a matinee performance or sporting event.

That said I realise it's all down to politics and money so isn't going to happen any time soon.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There's no logical reason to my mind why the T1C shouldn't operate daily in both directions. It would increase opportunities for overnight stays in Cardiff and Aberystwyth, offer a better service to the other towns on route, and facilitate day trips from Cardiff to Aberystwyth, which are slow and expensive by train and impractical by existing bus services via Swansea/Carmarthen or Llandrindod Wells.

At present the arrival (13.05) and departure(16.45) times in Cardiff don't even allow for attendance at a matinee performance or sporting event.

That said I realise it's all down to politics and money so isn't going to happen any time soon.

That there's no logical reason, or a potential market, isn't really the point. It was simply to replace the 701 on a like for like basis; I think they were hoping that as when George Bryan retired and Lewis took it on, then someone else would come in and fill the void. Only when that didn't materialise and the clamour grew that the T1C was introduced.

Also, I think it was Lewis who tried to run an enhanced timetable but the loadings didn't materialise.

 

[WelshBuses93]

Llew Jones Coaches have registered the T10 service beginning 31st July.

Corwen to Betws y Coed

Vehicle Operator Licensing - GOV.UK

www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk

Betws y Coed to Bangor

Vehicle Operator Licensing - GOV.UK

www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk

 

[Llandudno]

Llew Jones Coaches have registered the T10 service beginning 31st July.

Corwen to Betws y Coed

Vehicle Operator Licensing - GOV.UK

www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk

Betws y Coed to Bangor

Vehicle Operator Licensing - GOV.UK

www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk

Does the service start this coming Saturday?

Not seen any timetables or publicity for it, I can’t see it being particularly busy if no-one knows about it!

 

[markymark2000]

Does the service start this coming Saturday?

Not seen any timetables or publicity for it, I can’t see it being particularly busy if no-one knows about it!

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that is exactly the same as how the T19 started and the T12 started.

That said, they did have existing customer bases with the X19 and various tenders on the T12 but even so, a bit unadvertised, started up last minute and hoped for the best. Also conveniently how the 1Bws ticket was launched. Seems to be a common thing with Wales councils/government.

 

[krus_aragon]

What's more, the T10 route through Snowdonia ploughs through areas where there have been crackdowns on illegal roadside parking, and encouragement for tourists to use public transport or park and ride services. All the more reason to promote this new service, then!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What's more, the T10 route through Snowdonia ploughs through areas where there have been crackdowns on illegal roadside parking, and encouragement for tourists to use public transport or park and ride services. All the more reason to promote this new service, then!

I might agree with the first half of the route to Betws. The second half of the route is bonkers - not touristy, no-one lives there

 

[markymark2000]

I might agree with the first half of the route to Betws. The second half of the route is bonkers - not touristy, no-one lives there

In fact, the second part of the route was until recently a few days per week tendered shopper bus which got cancelled and replaced by Ffleccsi.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I might agree with the first half of the route to Betws. The second half of the route is bonkers - not touristy, no-one lives there

The second half might work at peak tourist times if it started back from Llangollen, that said, as there might then be some tourist demand.

Better services around the Ogwen Valley and Snowdon are sorely needed so that bit will load very well. Though I'd improve those under the Snowdon Sherpa branding which is alredy very strong.

 

[carlberry]

What's more, the T10 route through Snowdonia ploughs through areas where there have been crackdowns on illegal roadside parking, and encouragement for tourists to use public transport or park and ride services. All the more reason to promote this new service, then!

The Ogwen valley has (before this year) tended not to have the same problems as Snowdon and the Sherpa services have struggled (it wasnt that many years ago when there were no services beyond Bethesda in the valley). Theres no real park and ride site and, even if one could be identified, the flow would be from there to the Ogwen cottage area and not beyond. If it was frequent enough then the T10 might be useful on that section, however if its infrequent nobody is going to rely on it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Ogwen valley has (before this year) tended not to have the same problems as Snowdon and the Sherpa services have struggled (it wasnt that many years ago when there were no services beyond Bethesda in the valley). Theres no real park and ride site and, even if one could be identified, the flow would be from there to the Ogwen cottage area and not beyond. If it was frequent enough then the T10 might be useful on that section, however if its infrequent nobody is going to rely on it.

I think to get decent usage throughout Snowdonia you need a co-ordinated network of the sort of quality network Stagecoach have in the Lakes, not bitty odd routes, hence my Snowdon Sherpa comment, as people are going to need to be able to get to their campsite, hotel or hostel Friday evening, get to/from their intended walking areas, and get back home Sunday. Stagecoach's Lakeland network, while it does have some gaps and some connections are a bit poor, can indeed be used in that way fairly easily and I have used it as such, and the publicity (which unsurprisingly is by Best Impressions) is excellent, including printed timetable books.

This might do OK for daytrippers from Bangor, but it won't deal with the much larger market of daytrippers from Liverpool, Manchester etc.

I wouldn't however say frequency is absolutely key - more that it runs at convenient times. Most walkers will tend to aim for a 10am-ish start and finish around mid afternoon to teatime to be back to their accommodation or a nearby pub for an evening meal, if there's somewhere pleasant to wait (e.g. the Pen y Pass cafe) you could almost get away with only 3-4 journeys each way if they were well timed. It's something where some kind of semi-formalised DRT might actually work, though that's one for another thread. So I reckon if you had services timed to arrive at the Ogwen Valley for say 0930 and 1030 and to leave it at say 1530 and 1700 it might actually pick up a fairly large part of the traffic.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The second half might work at peak tourist times if it started back from Llangollen, that said, as there might then be some tourist demand.

Better services around the Ogwen Valley and Snowdon are sorely needed so that bit will load very well. Though I'd improve those under the Snowdon Sherpa branding which is alredy very strong.

Extend to Llangollen? It's not that touristy anyway and are we thinking that people living or staying in Llangollen are going to Betws, or cragrats in Capel are going to head to Llangollen? Just not seeing it. It is bonkers.

As @carlberry has said, Ogwen Valley hasn't had the same issues as round Snowdon and at this frequency, it just wouldn't be attractive to walkers. Climb Tryfan, walk down, wait for 90 mins?

 

[WelshBuses93]

Timetable for the T10 is now available. 2 hourly service Monday to Saturday. 3 return journeys on Sundays plus additional journeys during the Summer holidays.

T10 - Bangor to Corwen

Timetable for T10 - Bangor to Corwen

www.trawscymru.info

 

[carlberry]

Timetable for the T10 is now available. 2 hourly service Monday to Saturday. 3 return journeys on Sundays plus additional journeys during the Summer holidays.

T10 - Bangor to Corwen

Timetable for T10 - Bangor to Corwen

www.trawscymru.info

The additional Sunday journeys are odd as they duplicate the Sherpa service at this time with the only benefit being a direct service across Capel Curig. As others have said something like that would make more sense being promoted as part of the Sherpa network.

 

[Llandudno]

Corwen is a strange place (small, not necessarily strange!) to terminate the T10, yes there are connections onwards to Llangollen and Wrexham but to be of any strategic use the service should extend to Wrexham without the need to change buses.

The £5.70 1BWS day rover ticket should be valid on this new route though!

 

[carlberry]

Corwen is a strange place (small, not necessarily strange!) to terminate the T10, yes there are connections onwards to Llangollen and Wrexham but to be of any strategic use the service should extend to Wrexham without the need to change buses.

The £5.70 1BWS day rover ticket should be valid on this new route though!

Corwen is small but, historically, has been used as a connection point for services. If the T10 is going to attract people it could be argued that a better service over the new part of the route is preferable to a less frequent service over a longer route, parts of which are already covered.

 

[peterblue]

How's it going to attract passengers if it is poorly marketed? If someone, for example, lives in Wrexham they're unlikely to find out about the service unless they are relatively bus savvy.

Better to run it to somewhere big (e.g. Wrexham) as 1. people will see the service themselves and naturally be curious, 2. people prefer through buses and don't like the inconvenience of having to change in a small village.

 

[RT4038]

To clarify, there were a few overall strategies considered for Traws, and the one that was rejected was "fully integrated with the railway network to extend its reach". There's probably an old thread on it somewhere.

It would be nice if one area / network of routes trialled this, to see how it works, what the issues are and how to overcome. This network would be ideal as it is predominantly long distance links without too much complication of bespoke journeys, town services, schools etc.

 

[Llandudno]

It would be nice if one area / network of routes trialled this, to see how it works, what the issues are and how to overcome. This network would be ideal as it is predominantly long distance links without too much complication of bespoke journeys, town services, schools etc.

I suspect the reason no attempt is made to co-ordinate bus and rail times and routes in Wales is because the TfW rail network is too unreliable. Numerous wildcat train cancellations making connections unreliable, leaving passengers stranded for hours or even overnight in extreme cases!

 

[Rhydgaled]

the TfW rail network is too unreliable. Numerous wildcat train cancellations making connections unreliable, leaving passengers stranded for hours or even overnight in extreme cases!

How long would you say it has been like that? I don't remember it being that bad in Arriva Trains Wales days; lots of services were formed of inappropriate and/or insufficient rolling stock (or in dire need of refurbishment in the case of some 175 seats towards the end). On the odd occasion I suffered a missed connection late in the evening, a taxi would be found (as is required by the conditions of carriage isn't it?) to get to the ticketed destination (which is of course a problem when your ticket doesn't include the bus leg).