DaveHarries
Established Member
I am surprised that the Merthyr - Brecon section is still only every 2 hours. I would have thought that an hourly Brecon - Cardiff service would do quite well. IIRC there has been a push for that in the past.
Dave
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TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru
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Dave
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It was hourly for a short period pre Covid.
According to twitter?
You need to post the link to the relevant tweet and copy and paste the text from the tweet here. Forum rules and all that.
DaveHarries
Established Member
I saw the same post earlier as well. It was on the Traws Cymru twitter feed so, for reference:
Dave
johntrawscymru
On Moderation
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- 22 Jun 2018
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- 118
So yes I have said that ""the 45% increase in passenger numbers due largely to Free Weekend Travel"" was a lie and the data had been fabricated. You have defined this as corruption.
I must admit I missed the latter which should read decrease of 6% instead of increase . This could be a slip of the tongue and as you say this is incompetence.
But how can you say the former is incompetence when the figure of a 20% increase has been chosen. This is clearly fabrication of the data by choosing the percentage increase as 20%. You could say it is incompetence to do the 20% increase calculation incorrectly and then putting the incorrect calculated increase as the 2018-2019 figure. Can we agree on a mixture of fabrication of the 20% increase combined with incompetence in doing the increase calculation and incompetence in applying the calculated passenger increase to provide the desired passenger figure for 2018-2019 ?
Just because the fabrication has been carried out incompetently does not change the fact that it is fabrication. They did actually ""not very cleverly invent the wrong figure"".
You would think that since the Welsh Government (WG) were using the 2018-2019 report to claim such a large 45% increase in passenger numbers due largely to Free Weekend Travel that they would have checked this report with a fine toothcomb and the 20% increase together with the figures showing a doubling of passenger numbers stands out to even a casual reader as totally incorrect.
The 2018-2019 report was only published by the WG at the beginning of March 2020, (8 months after the press release on 4 July 2019), when the Covid Pandemic started. That was not incompetence and was an attempt to cover up the fabrication.
Then we come to the 2019-2020 report, which contains the figures for 2018-2019 . The T2 figure for 2018-2019 was changed to the figure for 2017-2018. The writer knows the 691k has been incompetently fabricated and knows it will be detected in the 2019-2020 report unless the figure is changed. There is no explanation in the 2019-2020 report that the T2 figure for 2018-2019 was grossly incorrect, and that the 45% increase in passenger numbers quoted in 2018-2019 is also grossly incorrect . So again this is falsification of the data in the 2019-2020 report to cover up the previous falsification of the data in the 2018-2019 report and not incompetence. The 45% increase in passenger numbers is now in the public domain, is quoted in the 2018-2019 report, in Press releases, in answers to written questions in the Welsh Senedd , in the "Catch a Bus Week" documentation, in Transport Press Articles and even in the Welsh Transport Strategy to justify retention of the Free Weekend Travel scheme. The success of the Free Weekend Travel scheme is now enshrined in Welsh folklore and no attempt has been made to correct the record even though the First Minister has been informed along with the Leader of the Labour Party.
You do not mention the 83% increase for the T3 in the 2018-2019 report. This has been quoted in the media as a mistake based on comments from an "industry source". It would be interesting to know the "industry source".
https://www.keybuses.com/article/trawscymru-records-16-growth
quote ""The report offers no explanation for the stated 82% increase in passengers on the T3 (Wrexham- Barmouth). An industry source suggests this is an error""
Funnily enough the portrait of success with the very high figures for the T2/T3 in 2018-2019 (ie exactly 20% for the T2 and 83% for the T3) mirrors the T2/T3 success story the year before in 2017-2018 where weekend travel increased by 108% on the T3 and 89% on the T2. These T2/T3 figures, (way above all the other Trawscymru services), are astounding for 2 years running and show how successful Free Weekend Travel has been on these 2 routes compared to the rest of the network !!. However there is plenty of smoke and plenty of mirrors and more of that later.
Yes indeed . You know this already because I told you on this forum nearly 3 years ago on 15 July 2018 and I am still "vexatious" even now .
That does not alter the fact that the WG have fabricated data in the 2018-2019 and 2019-2020 reports.
I was declared "vexatious" in February 2018 when I asked questions regarding the T10 Bangor to Oswestry route.
The techniques the WG used to generate 22 requests, (most of which were "vexatious"), were quite incredible . To start with the WG diverted questions to Local Authorities who quite rightly referred me back to the WG and separate requests. The WG even intercepted a letter to my Assembly member asking her to intervene with the Transport Minister and treated it as an FOIA request to add to this "vexatious" list. The Director of Transport was in charge of "vexatiousness" and initiated an Itable recording interactions the WG had to deal with due to the FOIA requests. This table included my letters to newspapers, and even entries on this forum. The table included letters from another member of the public to newspapers who disagreed with me. The table included letters from Assembly members requesting WG action on matters that they believed should be addressed. Throughout this period the WG were involved in no work other than the Director of Transport rejecting FOIA requests as "vexatious" and adding entries to the Itable. During this period of "vexatiousness" the WG told Ceredigion Council that they should not answer FOI requests relating to Trawscymru as the WG were dealing with all my questions even though every question was being rejected by the WG. Ceredigion Council had been particularly difficult throughout by splitting FOIA requests into an FOIA request and a Customer complaint dealt with by different personnel on different timescales and different appeals process. Conwy Council and Flintshire Council refused to even acknowledge the same repeated FOIA request on the T10 Bangor to Oswestry route and had to be threatened with High Court action by the Information Commissioner before they replied after 6 months. Wrexham Council ignored a request and eventually took the same line as Ceredigion. The only Council to resist the WG attempts to silence me were Carmarthenshire Council who throughout answered my questions in an open and honest way. The line the WG took with the High Court was that all my requests were related to T2/T1 connections in Aberystwyth when in reality they were in relation to new routes, the "High-Level" review that never took place and Free Weekend Travel. What "casemine" does not tell you is that the First High Court case found against the Welsh Government who had repeatedly told the Information Commissioner and the High Court that they deleted Trawscymru punctuality figures, when they held punctuality figuress in the Trawscymru Service delivery meeting minutes. In other words they lied. This was only revealed by Carmarthenshire Council informing me of the dates of Trawscymru Service delivery meetings that the WG had denied took place. The WG official who denied meetings had taken place was the the chairman of the meeting. After 2 years the High Court requested that the WG publicise the punctuality figures as part of their Publications scheme but the WG have declined to do so.
The WG with the help of an army of lawyers and the Permanent Secretary for the Welsh Government made a case to the High Court that they had done all they could to answer FOIA requests and were not just avoiding answering awkward questions. I am sure you are not naive enough to think that those questions were all "vexatious" and that the WG are incapable of lying. A member of the public on his own lined up against the Government Establishment is never going to win. If you look in the Welsh Assembly Transcripts you will find that the same WG Officials were accused by an Investigative Committee of Welsh Assembly members of failing to answer repeated requests from the Committee in relation to their actions in the "Circuit of Wales" project and the Committee had been repeatedly "misled". The Committee did not win either and did not get answers to their questions as the WG Officials had not "recorded" the requested information . The Minister informed the Welsh Assembly that "Lessons had been learned", but the WG Officials appear to have not listened to the teacher.
Correct she has no background in bus operation but she collaborated with a large range of stakeholders including bus operators, produced a 36 page report and recommended that the WG carry out a review of Trawscymru route between Wrexham and Aberystwyth. Contrast this with the T15 report which consulted 1 preferred bus operator, Arriva Buses Wales.
I thought that was what we were doing. Our debate is robust, respectful, open and honest.
You do not believe the WG have fabricated data in order to claim success of the Free Weekend Travel scheme . I believe the WG have fabricated data and I have tried to explain how it was fabricated. We differ in that respect but agree that certain new routes have not been properly evaluated by the WG and the Free Weekend Travel scheme has not been successful.
I will update the forum on the latest findings on the 2016-2017 Trawscymru Annual report, (Free Weekend Travel Brochure), and leave it up to you whether you wish to contribute .
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Now without wishing to respond to each and every single line that @johntrawscymru has stated....
I recall that he had made comment that Welsh Government (WG) was not responding to FOIA requests and I think I asked if they were using a justification of vexatious questioning on that, to which he confirmed. What I did not appreciate quite how far these issues had been pursued. Now, it is one thing to question the WG's motives as to your vexatious nature. It may have been considered expedient of them to do so. However, I was unaware that this had gone to the Information Commissioner, an independent body, and they ruled against you. You then appealed that decision, and they ruled against you once more. So it's not WG's opinion or mine - it is that of the Information Commissioner who believes that your behaviour borders on obsessive. Not withstanding that, it would appear that you then took your beliefs to the CPS (to try to obtain some prosecution of Ken Skates?), who then advised you to any referral must come after a police investigation. You have done so and the police are duty bound to investigate. However, should they conclude that insufficient evidence exists, can we rely on you to accept this with good grace?
In relation to the use of the word corruption, the Oxford Dictionary definition is of "dishonest or illegal behavior, especially of people in authority" - whilst you don't use the word, you are indeed accusing the WG and its officers of corruption. Your continued use of the word "lie" and you referring this to the CPS and Police clearly illustrate that you do believe corruption has taken place.
You state that Victoria Winckler has a background in dealing with many local authorities, and indeed she doubtless has many skills. However, she has no background in bus operation. Therefore, on what basis is her report anything to rely upon? As @Rhydgaled points out, she herself illustrates the limitations of her "research" and that much is personal opinion, an opinion based on no operational or commercial experience. There is no detailed analysis. Moreover, and illustrated by her point "A number of experts in the bus industry informed me that low floor coaches are simply not manufactured, so use of ordinary, high floor coaches on TrawsCymru services would mean that vehicles are not accessible to anyone with a mobility impairment, including wheelchair users, older people unable to climb steps or people with young children in buggies" shows naivety in so many facets.
Now, as for a robust and sensible discussion.... I don't think you are engaged in this. I said that I didn't wish to cover each and every point but instead gave a broad response at to my views. That wasn't good enough and rather than respect that, you say "you missed x and y" and repeated them and more.
At the end of the day, you are seemingly of the conspiracy theory view. In short, if WG were to be wishing to weave and elaborate web of falsified, fake information, you could do it a damn sight better than what they have produced. That the figures are erroneous is patently clear - that is what makes them so absurd but likewise, undermines your contention that this is some clever devious ruse. There are clearly some erroneous figures. That those have then been taken and some of those then used in press releases by other people who have not reviewed them is obvious enough. However, even you who seemingly pores all over these figures didn't spot an obvious error. Yes, even you with your fine toothcomb failed to spot that one on the T3, nor the reference to March 2019 (not 2020) regarding Covid.
Even your statement "The 2018-2019 report was only published by the WG at the beginning of March 2020, (8 months after the press release on 4 July 2019), when the Covid Pandemic started. That was not incompetence and was an attempt to cover up the fabrication." is riddled with mistakes - the T2 being the obvious error. I mean, if they had 8 months to weave this web, they might have made a better way of doing so with figures that actually made sense; getting them to actually add up or not showing a decrease as an increase. As for the T3, I don't know the industry source and seemingly neither do you, yet you contend that this mystery person's opinion is a clear illustration (to you) of fabrication.
I take your point that the clear cock-up on the T2 figures in 2018/9 was not acknowledged in the following years' report; probably rather embarrassed but to extrapolate that out as a clear conspiracy to fabricate and lie is a step too far. I'm all for critical thinking but you clearly believe that the WG is engaged in wilful and exhaustive fabrication of patronage figures. The reality is more prosaic - they are a shambles (which is why I have a general concern about the public sector's involvement in bus service provision) and it is cock-up not conspiracy.
I recall that he had made comment that Welsh Government (WG) was not responding to FOIA requests and I think I asked if they were using a justification of vexatious questioning on that, to which he confirmed. What I did not appreciate quite how far these issues had been pursued. Now, it is one thing to question the WG's motives as to your vexatious nature. It may have been considered expedient of them to do so. However, I was unaware that this had gone to the Information Commissioner, an independent body, and they ruled against you. You then appealed that decision, and they ruled against you once more. So it's not WG's opinion or mine - it is that of the Information Commissioner who believes that your behaviour borders on obsessive. Not withstanding that, it would appear that you then took your beliefs to the CPS (to try to obtain some prosecution of Ken Skates?), who then advised you to any referral must come after a police investigation. You have done so and the police are duty bound to investigate. However, should they conclude that insufficient evidence exists, can we rely on you to accept this with good grace?
In relation to the use of the word corruption, the Oxford Dictionary definition is of "dishonest or illegal behavior, especially of people in authority" - whilst you don't use the word, you are indeed accusing the WG and its officers of corruption. Your continued use of the word "lie" and you referring this to the CPS and Police clearly illustrate that you do believe corruption has taken place.
You state that Victoria Winckler has a background in dealing with many local authorities, and indeed she doubtless has many skills. However, she has no background in bus operation. Therefore, on what basis is her report anything to rely upon? As @Rhydgaled points out, she herself illustrates the limitations of her "research" and that much is personal opinion, an opinion based on no operational or commercial experience. There is no detailed analysis. Moreover, and illustrated by her point "A number of experts in the bus industry informed me that low floor coaches are simply not manufactured, so use of ordinary, high floor coaches on TrawsCymru services would mean that vehicles are not accessible to anyone with a mobility impairment, including wheelchair users, older people unable to climb steps or people with young children in buggies" shows naivety in so many facets.
Now, as for a robust and sensible discussion.... I don't think you are engaged in this. I said that I didn't wish to cover each and every point but instead gave a broad response at to my views. That wasn't good enough and rather than respect that, you say "you missed x and y" and repeated them and more.
At the end of the day, you are seemingly of the conspiracy theory view. In short, if WG were to be wishing to weave and elaborate web of falsified, fake information, you could do it a damn sight better than what they have produced. That the figures are erroneous is patently clear - that is what makes them so absurd but likewise, undermines your contention that this is some clever devious ruse. There are clearly some erroneous figures. That those have then been taken and some of those then used in press releases by other people who have not reviewed them is obvious enough. However, even you who seemingly pores all over these figures didn't spot an obvious error. Yes, even you with your fine toothcomb failed to spot that one on the T3, nor the reference to March 2019 (not 2020) regarding Covid.
Even your statement "The 2018-2019 report was only published by the WG at the beginning of March 2020, (8 months after the press release on 4 July 2019), when the Covid Pandemic started. That was not incompetence and was an attempt to cover up the fabrication." is riddled with mistakes - the T2 being the obvious error. I mean, if they had 8 months to weave this web, they might have made a better way of doing so with figures that actually made sense; getting them to actually add up or not showing a decrease as an increase. As for the T3, I don't know the industry source and seemingly neither do you, yet you contend that this mystery person's opinion is a clear illustration (to you) of fabrication.
I take your point that the clear cock-up on the T2 figures in 2018/9 was not acknowledged in the following years' report; probably rather embarrassed but to extrapolate that out as a clear conspiracy to fabricate and lie is a step too far. I'm all for critical thinking but you clearly believe that the WG is engaged in wilful and exhaustive fabrication of patronage figures. The reality is more prosaic - they are a shambles (which is why I have a general concern about the public sector's involvement in bus service provision) and it is cock-up not conspiracy.
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I think we've got to the stage where we've exhausted this particular line of discussion and it's clear that no agreement will be reached. I suggest we move on.
Markdvdman
Member
Sorry Gus I was looking at Twitter on my phone and could not get the URL from it! Will remember this in future!
mangyiscute
Established Member
To add to the tweet announcing 29th may as the first date of operation for the T19, TrawsCymru have now added it to their website complete with a timetable here: T19 (trawscymru.info)
It looks to me to be the same as the timetable currently used by Llew Jones Coaches except for a couple of small tweaks.
It looks to me to be the same as the timetable currently used by Llew Jones Coaches except for a couple of small tweaks.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not quite the hourly plan! Is this an interim service?
Llandudno
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Dec 2014
- Messages
- 2,197
It’s not even anything like a clockface 1 bus every 3 hours, and the bus operates via a different route on Sundays.
Bizarrely the bus operates via Llandudno Hospital on Sundays but not on weekdays when most out patients appointments are.
So much for the Senedd taking control of the network for the benefit of would be customers...!
One of the “tweaks” is quite decent in that the midday journey runs through to Blaenau Ffestiniog instead of terminating in the middle of nowhere.
I went on the X19 from Betws to Blaenau last month and it is scenic - as is the parallel train - but in the best bit the train dives into a tunnel while the bus carries on over the top.
Are there some other non-TC services in addition? If not it looks a thin and weirdly structured timetable.
For example, the Bodnant Gardens services offer the option (from the north) of less than two hours there or over five hours! And nothing from the south.
Llandudno
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Dec 2014
- Messages
- 2,197
There is a bus from Llandudno to Bodnant Gardens, 25 operated by Arriva, roughly every 2 hours 0900-1700
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Assume that there is some recasting with the X19....looks a bit weird https://llewjones.com/x19-19-service-sundays-bank-holidays-commencing-12th-april-2021/
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There have been buses and trains on the route for a very long time - even in the 90s there was a tendered "permanent RRB" on the last evening out and back from Llandudno, run by Arriva as either 19 or X19, I forget. One thing I've long enjoyed doing is train there and bus back, they are both really scenic in their own way. Definitely that way round, as emerging from the long tunnel into the moonscape of Blaenau is stunning.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I remember that tendered journey but it wasn't numbered 19. It was something wacky like the 82 or similar.
Bwsbro
Member
- Joined
- 7 Oct 2013
- Messages
- 391
It was formally known as the 84, before being withdrawn it was one round trip departing Llandudno Junction around 21:15, however in earlier timetables I have found a early evening round journey.
Some journeys were operated as X84 these included a positioning journey for the S2 on the weekend, alongside morning and afternoon school journeys between Coleg Llandrillo/Ysgol Dyffryn Conwy with Betws y Coed & Dolwyddelan
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Ah, the 84! I knew it was 80something but couldn’t recall.
Can’t recall the X84 though - must’ve passed me by
splashoutradio
Member
Looking through some recent-ish timetables, the buses appear to have come to an end around 2007/8, with the winter Sunday service being supplied entirely by buses.
I seem to remember there was some sort of ticket acceptance between local buses and trains, too.
Attachments
It's just what the X19 does at the moment - via Craig y Don Monday-Saturday, via Deganwy on Sundays. The normal 19 will (apart from the school journeys via Ysgol y Creuddyn and Llandrillo College) still be via Llandudno Hospital. The X/T19 suffers from the same problem the railway line does - it might be faster to go to Llanrwst down that side of the river, but all the customers live on the other side...
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
The road parallel to the A470 ain’t great; not keen driving it in the car!
It isn't, but as I said all of the bus passengers north of Llanrwst live on that side of the river, and another downside to going the quick way down is missing out Conwy, the local town for many.
Making it slightly faster to get from Blaenau to Llandudno is of really no interest to anyone.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Indeed - I guess there’s the age old balance of maximising patronage either through making the service attractive with speed vs. serving sufficient places to get trade.
It will be disappointing and a wasted opportunity if the final T19 timetable is just the present X19 with the extension of the mid-day journey to Blaenau Ffestiniog, as connections at BF with Porthmadog and Dollgellau /Aberystwith are poor.
Hopefully, this is just the interim and when the proposed Caernarfon/Blaenau service is introduced, north-south links can be re-appraised.
Hopefully, this is just the interim and when the proposed Caernarfon/Blaenau service is introduced, north-south links can be re-appraised.
krus_aragon
Established Member
Given that three electric vehicles were earmarked for the T19, there must be something additional planned...
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
It does point to that. Three vehicles could allow an hourly T19 (?) though you'd probably be better something around the train times and an hourly 19 Llandudno to Llanrwst. Not certain they would need to connect...how many folks are going from Trefriw to Blaenau anyway?
splashoutradio
Member
Looking on the Traws Cymru website (https://www.trawscymru.info/t19/), there appears to have been a couple of tweaks to the timetable, mainly around School day/holiday arrangements. There was an issue with footnotes not matching up in the previously released timetable - this too, appears to have been fixed.
krus_aragon
Established Member
Those footnote mispatches were in Llew Jones' X19 timetable for the beginning of May, which reinforces my suspicion that they'd just ported the existing service over to a new number (for now?)
Markdvdman
Member
Th T1C now runs Thursdays and Mondays, but Bank Holiday Mondays follow Sunday service. I used it from Cardiff to Cross Hands today and smack on time beating the no doubt horrific Friday experience tomorrow with all people travelling to West Wales for the bank holiday and that!
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