TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[RT4038]

I suspect the reason no attempt is made to co-ordinate bus and rail times and routes in Wales is because the TfW rail network is too unreliable. Numerous wildcat train cancellations making connections unreliable, leaving passengers stranded for hours or even overnight in extreme cases!

The same could be said about anywhere on the rail network at the moment, really. But you have to start somewhere.

 

[Llandudno]

The same could be said about anywhere on the rail network at the moment, really. But you have to start somewhere.

No but the Traws network is a Welsh Assembly subsidised long distance bus network, and so is TfW Rail.
Surely the left and right hand could improve integration between modes.

 

[RT4038]

No but the Traws network is a Welsh Assembly subsidised long distance bus network, and so is TfW Rail.
Surely the left and right hand could improve integration between modes.

You would think that this fact would more easily facilitate a pilot scheme, as this fares integration can only work where both bus and rail is being funded (and revenue risk taken) by the same organisation.
However, the complexities and ongoing work involved should not be underestimated.

 

[RELL6L]

The T10 looks great for someone like me who wants to come and explore the scenery, probably just the once (I have done Corwen to Betws y Coed but not Capel Curig to Bangor), but can it possibly gather any significant custom? Would be great to hope so but I just don’t see where it will come from.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The T10 looks great for someone like me who wants to come and explore the scenery, probably just the once (I have done Corwen to Betws y Coed but not Capel Curig to Bangor), but can it possibly gather any significant custom? Would be great to hope so but I just don’t see where it will come from.

I wonder if someone looked at the busy road traffic on the A5 but didn't consider where it actually comes from?

 

[Llandudno]

I wonder if someone looked at the busy road traffic on the A5 but didn't consider where it actually comes from?

Indeed, Corwen has a population of 2326, strange place to terminate a long distance bus route!

The ‘connections’ at Corwen are not that great, with 30-40 minutes to wait on some occasions, hope the pub is open!

 

[Statto]

Extending the T10 from Corwen to Wrexham & being hourly Corwen-Wrexham section with the T3 would be a better use of the T10

 

[carlberry]

Extending the T10 from Corwen to Wrexham & being hourly Corwen-Wrexham section with the T3 would be a better use of the T10

Corwen to Llangollen is unlikely to need more provision and Llangollen to Wrexham even less so. It will be great if the T10 gets some traffic where there wasnt some, however taking it from established services isn't helpful.

 

[Statto]

Corwen to Llangollen is unlikely to need more provision and Llangollen to Wrexham even less so. It will be great if the T10 gets some traffic where there wasnt some, however taking it from established services isn't helpful.

Maybe, but I do think extending the T10 to Wrexham would be a better use of the service. It gives passengers direct access from North East Wales to that part of Snowdonia and Bangor.

 

[burns20]

Or extend the T10 to Oswestry via Llangollen and Chirk instead of the roundabout and infrequent 64

 

[markymark2000]

Or extend the T10 to Oswestry via Llangollen and Chirk instead of the roundabout and infrequent 64

That is one of the plans I believe at some point, absorb the 64.

 

[burns20]

Have a Dee Valley Fflecsi to replace the tighter parts of the route plus the Ceiriog Valley.

 

[Llandudno]

Or extend the T10 to Oswestry via Llangollen and Chirk instead of the roundabout and infrequent 64

That is one of the plans I believe at some point, absorb the 64

It might actually carry some passengers if it did that, perhaps run to Gobowen station via Oswestry for improved connectivity.

 

[Statto]

It might actually carry some passengers if it did that, perhaps run to Gobowen station via Oswestry for improved connectivity.

Not a bad idea either, & connect the T10 with the T12 to at Oswestry as well.

 

[markymark2000]

It might actually carry some passengers if it did that, perhaps run to Gobowen station via Oswestry for improved connectivity.

The issue is, much of TrawsCymru is just revenue extraction from COMMERCIAL routes. Stealing revenue from commercial routes makes them less viable so there is then more subsidy needed. Yes, some connectivity is good but all you're doing is stealing passengers and risking the future of core commercial services.

The 64 does alright on it's own as it is. The only thing the 64 needs is a better operator and slight retiming to improve connections. Connections between the T12 and T10 could be done at Chirk.


Gobowen to Oswestry already has 2 buses per hour, why add more needlessly? Gobowen north up to Chirk has a single bus per hour but this is sufficient for the demand.

Why are people so intent on wasting money on fresh air buses and as the T10 is proving, you can not time up any bus to meet so many different connections with such infrequent buses. It's just a waste of time, money and effort. If the T10 gets extended, it should be to Llangollen since it is, in it's own right, a popular tourist destination and has links to another very regular route, the 5. A possible extension then could be to absorb the 64 which I wouldn't be against however it should completely cover the 64 in it's entirety (or at least be extremely similar to the 64, only changing for demand purposes). No silly extensions miles off route just because it's a handy nice to have connection. It is public money. Enough of it has been and will continue to be wasted on the T10 from Corwen to Bangor, let's not increase the subsidy due to barmy ideas. The Welsh Govt have enough of them already, don't need any more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue is, much of TrawsCymru is just revenue extraction from COMMERCIAL routes. Stealing revenue from commercial routes makes them less viable so there is then more subsidy needed. Yes, some connectivity is good but all you're doing is stealing passengers and risking the future of core commercial services.

Wales has very sparse and often very poor quality commercial services - it is hardly prime commercial territory as you get in big cities. I doubt anyone would miss them.

 

[markymark2000]

Wales has very sparse and often very poor quality commercial services - it is hardly prime commercial territory as you get in big cities. I doubt anyone would miss them

How very mistaken you are. We aren't talking about TC competing with a 3 hourly commercial route between small towns with no links, these are core, hourly or more frequent CORE route. The 2/2A Oswestry Chirk and Wrexham. Half hourly between them. T12 is purely revenue extraction.
Wrexham to Llangollen 5 is half hourly through the day. T3 is mainly revenue extraction from this though does serve the Maelor. That it all it has going for it and if the T3 didn't exist, the council wouldn't replace the link as people can change in the town centre with very frequent buses.
Bangor to Caernarfon, T2, duplicates over the every 15 minutes 5C which Arriva run.
Machynlleth – Aberystwyth, the T2 duplicates over the Lloyds X28.

You are more than happy to decimate the *CORE* bus network for a fantasy network of stupidly long bus routes which run at random frequencies, drempt up by some politicians and then thrown out to tender hoping for the best. Great plan. I thought we were trying to encourage regular people onto buses, you don't manage that by cocking up the core bus network.

It is taxpayers funding the decimation of commercial businesses. It's absurd.

 

[Dai Corner]

How very mistaken you are. We aren't talking about TC competing with a 3 hourly commercial route between small towns with no links, these are core, hourly or more frequent CORE route. The 2/2A Oswestry Chirk and Wrexham. Half hourly between them. T12 is purely revenue extraction.
Wrexham to Llangollen 5 is half hourly through the day. T3 is mainly revenue extraction from this though does serve the Maelor. That it all it has going for it and if the T3 didn't exist, the council wouldn't replace the link as people can change in the town centre with very frequent buses.
Bangor to Caernarfon, T2, duplicates over the every 15 minutes 5C which Arriva run.
Machynlleth – Aberystwyth, the T2 duplicates over the Lloyds X28.

You are more than happy to decimate the *CORE* bus network for a fantasy network of stupidly long bus routes which run at random frequencies, drempt up by some politicians and then thrown out to tender hoping for the best. Great plan. I thought we were trying to encourage regular people onto buses, you don't manage that by cocking up the core bus network.

It is taxpayers funding the decimation of commercial businesses. It's absurd.

Haven't any of the commercial operators complained about tendered services abstracting their traffic? As I understand it, that would be illegal.

 

[Grumpus63]

I hope to be trying out this new T10 route in the near future as the Ogwen Valley looks to be a place of magnificent scenery. I would have hoped to have stayed longer but the last T12 connection from Wrexham back to Welshpool leaves at the absurdly early early hour of 15.35 during school holiday periods.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm not entirely sure how much revenue abstraction is happening with the T12 nor with the T10 starting. Nor is it technically illegal to have a bus service covering part of a commercial route per se.... it happens all the time but it can't be substantially similar and be justifiable in providing otherwise missing links etc. For instance, there are three buses per hour running into Truro on the A390 - one is commercial (First 27) and two are tendered (TfC 50 and 89) but of course, they are running in different places on different routes to a common terminus. Whilst the odd passenger is going to be lost between Bangor and Caernarfon, how much damage is a T2 every couple of hours (or perhaps once an hour in the pm) going to do vs. the Arriva headway of every 15 mins. Not that much.

Where I do agree is the largesse in spending money on fantasies like the T10. Don't get me wrong, great scenery up the Nant Ffrancon and past Swallow Falls and Betws. However, to then send it out...to Corwen or then thinking of extending it to Wrexham or Oswestry...really? It's a ridiculous waste of money - probably about £250k for that. Far better to employ that money in improving Snowdon Sherpa services and publicity than arbitrarily filling in points on a map.

As I've said before, if they've money to burn, perhaps half that cash could be used on turning the 280/1 service from Carmarthen to Llandovery into a clockface time with three vehicles on it rather than two working a 90 min headway? Or Abergavenny to Newport via Monmouth hourly to replace the 60/83?

 

[markymark2000]

I'm not entirely sure how much revenue abstraction is happening with the T12 nor with the T10 starting. Nor is it technically illegal to have a bus service covering part of a commercial route per se.... it happens all the time but it can't be substantially similar and be justifiable in providing otherwise missing links etc. For instance, there are three buses per hour running into Truro on the A390 - one is commercial (First 27) and two are tendered (TfC 50 and 89) but of course, they are running in different places on different routes to a common terminus. Whilst the odd passenger is going to be lost between Bangor and Caernarfon, how much damage is a T2 every couple of hours (or perhaps once an hour in the pm) going to do vs. the Arriva headway of every 15 mins. Not that much.

I'd say a good few people extracted but the T10 is extracting mainly from commercial routes so it's not that bad but it could risk a tender costing more money as the revenue is lower on it. Depends on how the tender is let. T12 extracting is mainly Wrexham to Oswestry. I know it isn't illegal to cover over and in some cases, it very logical. That said, it becomes less logical with

Where I do agree is the largesse in spending money on fantasies like the T10. Don't get me wrong, great scenery up the Nant Ffrancon and past Swallow Falls and Betws. However, to then send it out...to Corwen or then thinking of extending it to Wrexham or Oswestry...really? It's a ridiculous waste of money - probably about £250k for that. Far better to employ that money in improving Snowdon Sherpa services and publicity than arbitrarily filling in points on a map.

As I've said before, if they've money to burn, perhaps half that cash could be used on turning the 280/1 service from Carmarthen to Llandovery into a clockface time with three vehicles on it rather than two working a 90 min headway? Or Abergavenny to Newport via Monmouth hourly to replace the 60/83?

Meh. Nice scenery, you can't see much from the T10 though, mainly trees. If you're a tree enthusiast, it's great. Otherwise, it's kind of only good for connections but then you are relying upon them matching up which often isn't the case on the T10.

The Welsh Govt has a lot of money to burn on their fantasy projects. It's such a shame that it's ran by braindead politicians who know their seats are safe and not ran for the public as it should be.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'd say a good few people extracted but the T10 is extracting mainly from commercial routes so it's not that bad but it could risk a tender costing more money as the revenue is lower on it. Depends on how the tender is let. T12 extracting is mainly Wrexham to Oswestry. I know it isn't illegal to cover over and in some cases, it very logical. That said, it becomes less logical with


Meh. Nice scenery, you can't see much from the T10 though, mainly trees. If you're a tree enthusiast, it's great. Otherwise, it's kind of only good for connections but then you are relying upon them matching up which often isn't the case on the T10.

The Welsh Govt has a lot of money to burn on their fantasy projects. It's such a shame that it's ran by braindead politicians who know their seats are safe and not ran for the public as it should be.

The Nant Ffrancon bit is scenic enough and even down through Capel. From Betws, it’s fairly tree lined until suddenly your out….in a wild expanse of nothingness. It’s not even hauntingly bleak - just dull.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Nant Ffrancon bit is scenic enough and even down through Capel. From Betws, it’s fairly tree lined until suddenly your out….in a wild expanse of nothingness. It’s not even hauntingly bleak - just dull.

You talking about from Betws towards the Ogwen Valley? I think it's stunning.

 

[markymark2000]

The Nant Ffrancon bit is scenic enough and even down through Capel. From Betws, it’s fairly tree lined until suddenly your out….in a wild expanse of nothingness. It’s not even hauntingly bleak - just dull.

Nant Ffrancon is nothing when you consider the stunning views just up the road. Doesn't even come close. Get the S2 if you want views, not the T10.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nant Ffrancon is nothing when you consider the stunning views just up the road. Doesn't even come close. Get the S2 if you want views, not the T10.

Of course the primary purpose of the service is to get somewhere, not to look out of the window, so the one you will take depends on where you are going.

 

[markymark2000]

Of course the primary purpose of the service is to get somewhere, not to look out of the window, so the one you will take depends on where you are going.

Yes but you were saying about the scenery. You couldn't get any tourist trade off it really considering what is just up the road.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes but you were saying about the scenery. You couldn't get any tourist trade off it really considering what is just up the road.

I was simply disagreeing with @TheGrandWazoo who said the scenery at that end of the T10 was bland, I think it's stunning. Indeed, I love the drive from the M54 to the Ogwen Valley - the scenery is just lovely in the way it builds up.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I was simply disagreeing with @TheGrandWazoo who said the scenery at that end of the T10 was bland, I think it's stunning. Indeed, I love the drive from the M54 to the Ogwen Valley - the scenery is just lovely in the way it builds up.

I think you've misunderstood, unless you really do include starting from Telford.

Travelling east from Bangor, the run up the Ogwen Valley to the Nant Ffrancon pass is tremendous. Llyn Ogwen, the Glyders, and then dropping down to Capel is brilliant scenery. Even dropping down through Swallow Falls to Betws is really quite nice. It's after Betws that it's dull. You wend through non-descript woodland past the end of the Penmachno Valley and then add towards Pentrefoelas. It's that bit that is turgid - it's just a flog along the A5 past dreary scrubby land until you reach Rhug.

As for the idea that it will allow people to access go walking etc is largely wishful thinking. You're not going to risk having to wait that long when a service operates only two hourly, and on a Sunday, you could be looking at a 4 hour wait (depending on the definition of Summer). Instead, they would've been better advised to have a simple route (not TC) from Bangor station to Betws station as a Sherpa service but trotting off to Corwen is just daft.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you've misunderstood.

Travelling east from Bangor, the run up the Ogwen Valley to the Nant Ffrancon pass is tremendous. Llyn Ogwen, the Glyders, and then dropping down to Capel is brilliant scenery. Even dropping down through Swallow Falls to Betws is really quite nice. It's after Betws that it's dull. You wend through non-descript woodland past the end of the Penmachno Valley and then add towards Pentrefoelas. It's that bit that is turgid - it's just a flog along the A5 past dreary scrubby land until you reach Rhug.

Ah yes, that bit is a bit dull, but then it gets nice again towards and past Llangollen.

As for the idea that it will allow people to access go walking etc is largely wishful thinking. You're not going to risk having to wait that long when a service operates only two hourly, and on a Sunday, you could be looking at a 4 hour wait (depending on the definition of Summer). Instead, they would've been better advised to have a simple route (not TC) from Bangor station to Betws station as a Sherpa service but trotting off to Corwen is just daft.

Yes, I'd agree a Bangor - Betws Sherpa route would be a good thing.

 

[markymark2000]

Yes, I'd agree a Bangor - Betws Sherpa route would be a good thing.

There is the Saturday S6 from Bangor to PenYPass via Capel. From Capel to Bewts, there is the hourly S2.