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Trip to Liverpool & Manchester, for Merseyrail & Class 155s

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boiledbeans2

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I'm planning a trip with tentative journey dates as follows:

9 August: Guildford to Liverpool
13 August: Liverpool to Manchester
16 August: Manchester to Guildford

I have some questions about it (in bold below).



Guildford to Liverpool
I'm planning to get a Guildford to Liverpool Off-peak return ticket for £108.30, travelling Guildford - Euston - Liverpool Lime St

I think the cheapest option is a split ticket:
  • Guildford to Waterloo single, £15.20 (travelling before Network Railcard validity)
  • Waterloo to Euston, Oyster
  • Super off-peak return for Euston to Liverpool, WMT only, £38
  • Waterloo to Guildford single, £13 (with my Network Railcard)
However, with the current Avanti service, it's highly likely I will get delayed, and it might be cheaper to get the £108.30 ticket and claim delay repay (This is a leisure trip so I'm in no hurry).

After goofing around on MixingDesk, these are options I've found on 9 August (weekday):

Plan A: 1107 dep Euston, 1320 arr Liverpool (Avanti)
Plan B: 1130 dep Euston, 1314 arr Warrington Bank Quay (Avanti). 1320 dep Warrington Bank Quay, 1330 arr Newton Le Willows (TfW). 1339 dep Newton Le Willows, 1403 arr Liverpool (TPE).
Plan C: Repeat of Plan A, 1 hour later, i.e. 1207 dep Euston
Plan D: Repeat of Plan B, 1 hour later
Plan E: 1146 dep Euston, 1404 arr Crewe (WMR). 1459 dep Crewe, 1541 arr Liverpool (WMT).

Plan A-D involve Avanti and TPE which I'm aware is unreliable. So there's a big chance I will be on Plan E, which if true would mean 2 hours of delay, i.e. free trip to Liverpool.

1) So my first question is, are there any other better backup options besides those listed above?



Merseyrail
This will be my first time in Liverpool and on Merseyrail. I'd like to ride the Class 507s and 508s before they retire.

So I plan to get a Day Saver ticket for £5.60 and spend a day riding it and taking photos.

2) Where are some good places to take photos of the train? Both underground and above ground options, preferably in quieter stations so those pesky passengers don't stand in the way.

So I'm looking at the Merseyrail map. On the northern part of the Northern Line, there are 3 branches. If I don't have sufficient time to ride all 3 branches, which would be the best? I would prefer a quieter branch so I could also take some videos inside the train. It would be good if there's some interesting scenery too.

Similarly for the Wirral line, there are 2 northern branches and 2 southern branches. Which would be the best branch if I don't have sufficient time?

3) So my third question could be summarised as which are the best branches on Merseyrail in terms of how quietness and scenery?

4) Are there some interesting stations I should visit (e.g. with interesting layouts like Piccadilly Circus Bakerloo Line)?




Liverpool to Manchester
On 13 August (Saturday), I'm travelling from Liverpool to Manchester.

I'm aware this is a strike date, with WMT and Avanti involved, but not Northern.

5) What ticket combination could I use to get to Manchester? Could I use part of my Liverpool to Guildford return ticket to station X, then buy a single ticket from X to Manchester?

6) If I change my mind and travel on 12 August instead (non-strike date), would there be a better ticket split option involving Avanti/WMT?




Trains in Manchester
I'd like to ride the Class 155s as I've never been on them. I've been on a Class 153, but of course, it would be good to try the "original" experience.

7) Do Class 155s still go to Manchester? Which routes can they be found on?

I'd also like to ride (in decreasing priority) the Class 156s, Class 323s, Class 319s.

8) If I get a Manchester Rail Ranger ticket for £7.70, which routes can I ride the above 3 classes?

Sorry if 8) seems to be a basic question. I've been to Manchester only once 7 years ago, before the Class 195s and Class 331s arrived, so I'm not familiar with the trains around Manchester today.



Blackpool day trip
I'm also planning a day trip to Blackpool from either Liverpool or Manchester. I was looking at RTT at Blackpool North for the types of trains used.

9) It seems Blackpool North to either Liverpool or Manchester are fully Class 331 services? Are there other types of train operating?



Manchester to Guildford
On 16 August (weekday) I will be making the return journey.

10) Considering I have a Liverpool to Guildford ticket, what ticket should I buy so that I can rejoin the allowed routes from my original ticket?



Thanks for reading my long post and getting to this sentence! If I have made any mistakes in my post, please correct me!

Please also reply if you have interesting tips or advice to share!
 
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Kite159

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Merseyside, it's worth paying the extra 5p to get an all area saveaway (buy from the Northern ticket office at Lime Street). Gives you a larger area, including buses & the ferry.

To get to Manchester, see if Northern have any cheap advances available.

The 155s don't go near Manchester these days, based out of Hull, closest they get to Manchester is working the odd Leeds service from Hull (on Sundays).

156s will be on Manchester Oxford Road - Liverpool via Warrington Central, Buxton & Chester via Northwich services. From Victoria they could pop up on trains towards Wigan, easiest way will be to use RTT.

323s - Stoke, Hadfield stoppers, also Crewe stoppers & Liverpool stoppers via Eccles (shared with 319s)
 
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rg177

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Class 155s have now been moved east and are largely confined to York to Hull/Bridlington, with some appearances on Halifax to Hull via Leeds.

Class 156s you'll find on some Oxford Road to Liverpool stoppers (so valid out to just past Irlam on a GM Ranger I believe) as well as on some trains between Manchester Victoria and Wigan/Kirkby. They share this work with 150s and you might even find both paired up.

323s you'll find on nearly all services from Piccadilly to Stoke, as well as some services to Crewe. These are shared with 319s. On the Stoke services, your ticket will be good to Cheadle Hulme/Bramhall. I believe its Handforth and Manchester Airport/Styal on the Crewes depending on which route the train takes.

Services to and from Southport should see quite a few 769s on them as well, which are the bi-mode conversions of 319s.

Realtimetrains will be able to give you allocations for each service on the day you travel so you can plan accordingly around this.
 

Kite159

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Class 155s have now been moved east and are largely confined to York to Hull/Bridlington, with some appearances on Halifax to Hull via Leeds.

Class 156s you'll find on some Oxford Road to Liverpool stoppers (so valid out to just past Irlam on a GM Ranger I believe) as well as on some trains between Manchester Victoria and Wigan/Kirkby. They share this work with 150s and you might even find both paired up.

323s you'll find on nearly all services from Piccadilly to Stoke, as well as some services to Crewe. These are shared with 319s. On the Stoke services, your ticket will be good to Cheadle Hulme/Bramhall. I believe its Handforth and Manchester Airport/Styal on the Crewes depending on which route the train takes.

Services to and from Southport should see quite a few 769s on them as well, which are the bi-mode conversions of 319s.

Realtimetrains will be able to give you allocations for each service on the day you travel so you can plan accordingly around this.
If on a standard GM rail ranger it will be the Airport, Styal is outside the area. For Crewe via Stockport it is Cheadle Hulme.

A GM Wayfarer might be better value, depends if the OP will be traveling in the evening peak on a weekday as that's valid
 

185143

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You'll get a 156 easily enough on the Cheshire Lines between Liverpool and Manchester, and the diagrams are pretty fixed, so a quick look on RTT for the last few days should find the allocations reliably enough. Similarly, 319s and 323s ply their trade on the Chat Moss, so you'll get them easily enough there too.

On the Manchester side of things, Hadfield and Stoke* services are all 323s, the Crewe services are a mixture of 319s and 323s. *One early morning Stoke service is, or at least used to be, a pair of 331s.
 

30907

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2,3. Merseyrail electrics operate through a flat coastal area. The Southport line sticks in the memory for level crossings (which IMO add interest to unit photos) and nearby sand dunes. I would use a satellite map to get a feel for the area.

9. You should still get 15x units on Preston-Blackpool (RTT will tell you) - and also on Preston-Ormskirk, which is worth doing because it is so atypical.

5,10 From memory, your LIV ticket is valid via MAN. You can test this yourself on a journey planner.
 

skyhigh

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Class 155s have now been moved east and are largely confined to York to Hull/Bridlington, with some appearances on Halifax to Hull via Leeds.
There is also one train a day in each direction on the Harrogate line booked for a 155 and they can also turn up unplanned on Knottingley services.
 

jamesst

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Merseyrail wise, if you stand at Sandhills you'll catch all the Northern Line units in service (Southport, Ormskirk, Kirkby, Hunts Cross lines).
For the Wirral line (Chester, Ellesmere Port, New Brighton, West kirby lines) if you stand at Hamilton Square or the Liverpool underground stations you'll get all the units on that side. Just let the staff know what you're doing.

As for units not in service then if you fancy a trip up to Southport 6 units are stored there between peaks. More units will be stabled at Kirkdale.
On the Wirral Birkenhead North tmd (visible from any passing train) is where more units will be.
Any additional units awaiting a trip to the depot will be stored at either West Kirby or New Brighton.
 

boiledbeans2

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Many thanks for all your replies!

I had to download the map from NR to understand the routes of all the trains as I'm unfamiliar with the area!

For the 323s, probably I will get the Hadfield or Airport trains. The Hadfield route seems to have a lot of stops, which is good as I will get maximum 323 acceleration and deceleration motor sounds.

For the Class 156s, I will probably aim for the Liverpool trains (limit of Rail Ranger is Glazebrook. But it seems more trains stop at Irlam) since as mentioned above, they seem to be reliably 156s. If I check RTT for a random time for the Wigan, Buxton, Chester branches, they seem to be mostly 150s.
 

boiledbeans2

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Merseyside, it's worth paying the extra 5p to get an all area saveaway (buy from the Northern ticket office at Lime Street). Gives you a larger area, including buses & the ferry.

Is this available as a paper ticket? (I'd like to keep as a souvenir)

I just did a search and according to the link below, it says "Please Note: Saveaway tickets are now only available on Metro cards. Metro cards have a £1 activation fee."


Also it says "Saveaway tickets can be used on the Mersey Ferries Direct Service after 9.30am."

So I check the timetable for Mersey Ferries (I assume the Commuter ferry) and they only operate during the peak hours. So the morning peak service ends at 9.30am anyway. So I assume it's only valid on the evening peak ferries?
 

Kite159

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If you buy it from the Northern ticket office at Lime Street (or the TfW ticket office at Chester) it will come on paper stock. Buy it from a Merseyrail ticket office and they will only sell it on the smartcard (paying the extra £1 fee). Unless it's changed since April when I was last in Liverpool hunting down my last few Merseyrail units needed for mileage (and last TPE 802s)

I believe the general rule when using the ferry is you have to get off at the other end, you can't remain on board.
 

boiledbeans2

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A GM Wayfarer might be better value, depends if the OP will be traveling in the evening peak on a weekday as that's valid

Thanks for pointing this out for the Rail Ranger. I think I'll still stick to the Rail Ranger as it still has plenty of routes to cover for a single day!

To avoid the evening peak limitation of the Rail Ranger, I'm considering using it on Sunday instead (I won't be there on a Saturday). Are the train allocations discussed above the same on a Sunday as well?

From RTT, it seems Hadfield is still 323s on Sundays.
But Irlam at a random time on RTT, it seems to be Class 195s everywhere.
 

boiledbeans2

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You'll get a 156 easily enough on the Cheshire Lines between Liverpool and Manchester, and the diagrams are pretty fixed, so a quick look on RTT for the last few days should find the allocations reliably enough. Similarly, 319s and 323s ply their trade on the Chat Moss, so you'll get them easily enough there too.

For my journey from Liverpool to Manchester, which is the more interesting route to take? Cheshire Line or Chat Moss?
 

Kite159

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For my journey from Liverpool to Manchester, which is the more interesting route to take? Cheshire Line or Chat Moss?

Chat Moss if you like 323s, as they can get up to a good bit of speed on the section between Newton-Le-Willows & Patricroft. Cheshire Line on a stopper can be a drag, when it calls at tiny stations like Trafford Park, Glazebrook & Birchwood
 

boiledbeans2

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2,3. Merseyrail electrics operate through a flat coastal area. The Southport line sticks in the memory for level crossings (which IMO add interest to unit photos) and nearby sand dunes. I would use a satellite map to get a feel for the area.

9. You should still get 15x units on Preston-Blackpool (RTT will tell you) - and also on Preston-Ormskirk, which is worth doing because it is so atypical.

5,10 From memory, your LIV ticket is valid via MAN. You can test this yourself on a journey planner.

Thanks, the Southport branch would be one of my priorities.

That is an interesting suggestion. For the day trip to Blackpool from Liverpool, instead of a direct Class 331 train, I could try Liverpool - Ormskirk - Preston - Blackpool South. The only drawback is the journey time increases to 3 hours, with an hour's wait at Preston. Unless I can make an unofficial 2 minute connection at Preston...

Edit: Alternatively, I could aim for a Class 156 from Ormskirk to Preston by checking RTT on that day. Then at Preston, board one of the more frequent Blackpool North services since I've already done the Class 156.

I've been messing around on Mixing Desk. A ticket from Guildford to LIV is not valid via MAN. But if I select a destination further west instead of LIS, I can get a ticket valid via MAN and LIS. Don't want to be too specific here as I'm not sure if it's a mistake to be fixed...
 
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185143

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For my journey from Liverpool to Manchester, which is the more interesting route to take? Cheshire Line or Chat Moss?
I'm biased :D

But both have their good and not so good bits.

A trip down the Cheshire Lines will see you pass Allerton TMD, home of the 319 and 323 fleet, Fiddlers Ferry Power Station in the distance, the sparsely served station at Sankey for Penketh along with the new station at Warrington West. You'll then pass through Warrington and into the suburbs of Manchester, which aren't that interesting with the exception of crossing the Manchester Ship Canal just after Irlam, and Old Trafford if you're into football-or a largish freight yard if not!

A trip down the Chat Moss will see you have a slow Potter through Suburban Liverpool, through Rainhill and Newton le Willows, followed by a fast run over the Moss, which can be quite fun and noisy in the right part of a 319. The Liverpool end of the Cheshire Lines is nicer than anything beyond Irlam and the Chat Moss is better at the Manchester end.
 

prod_pep

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Merseyrail
This will be my first time in Liverpool and on Merseyrail. I'd like to ride the Class 507s and 508s before they retire.

So I plan to get a Day Saver ticket for £5.60 and spend a day riding it and taking photos.

2) Where are some good places to take photos of the train? Both underground and above ground options, preferably in quieter stations so those pesky passengers don't stand in the way.

So I'm looking at the Merseyrail map. On the northern part of the Northern Line, there are 3 branches. If I don't have sufficient time to ride all 3 branches, which would be the best? I would prefer a quieter branch so I could also take some videos inside the train. It would be good if there's some interesting scenery too.

Similarly for the Wirral line, there are 2 northern branches and 2 southern branches. Which would be the best branch if I don't have sufficient time?

3) So my third question could be summarised as which are the best branches on Merseyrail in terms of how quietness and scenery?

4) Are there some interesting stations I should visit (e.g. with interesting layouts like Piccadilly Circus Bakerloo Line)?
The quieter parts of the Northern Line are the Kirkby and Hunts Cross branches, but I'd recommend the latter as because it is run together with the Southport route, you'll see a lot more units. The Southport line is definitely the most interesting route with some pretty sections north of Waterloo and overhead views of the city south of it. The Ormskirk line has some good overhead views in the Aintree area and a nice elevated rural section between Maghull North and Town Green. Both the Southport and Ormskirk routes tend to be busy even outside the peaks but the Kirkby and Hunts Cross limbs are relatively quiet.

On the Wirral Line, the northern and southern routes will each offer nine units in service but the southern lines are fairly unappealing with little to see except a glimpse of Port Sunlight village and limited countryside views between Hooton and Chester. The West Kirby line is probably the most interesting route that side of the Mersey for views, especially Moreton to Meols, and the New Brighton line after Wallasey Grove Road gives a good view of the sea. The Chester line tends to be fairly busy outside peak times but the others are quiet.

Stations I'd recommend: Cressington simply because it is a delightful station in one of Liverpool's nicest areas; Kirkdale for views of the nearby depot (including the new 777s); Southport as an impressive terminus station with plenty of stock stabled off-peak and Hamilton Square as a reasonably quiet underground station with three platforms, one at a lower level than the others.
 

185143

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Chat Moss if you like 323s, as they can get up to a good bit of speed on the section between Newton-Le-Willows & Patricroft. Cheshire Line on a stopper can be a drag, when it calls at tiny stations like Trafford Park, Glazebrook & Birchwood
Oi! :D
 

Kite159

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That is an interesting suggestion. For the day trip to Blackpool from Liverpool, instead of a direct Class 331 train, I could try Liverpool - Ormskirk - Preston - Blackpool South. The only drawback is the journey time increases to 3 hours, with an hour's wait at Preston. Unless I can make an unofficial 2 minute connection at Preston...
It's normally the same train which arrives from Ormskirk which will form the Blackpool South service :)
 

boiledbeans2

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If you buy it from the Northern ticket office at Lime Street (or the TfW ticket office at Chester) it will come on paper stock. Buy it from a Merseyrail ticket office and they will only sell it on the smartcard (paying the extra £1 fee). Unless it's changed since April when I was last in Liverpool hunting down my last few Merseyrail units needed for mileage (and last TPE 802s)

I believe the general rule when using the ferry is you have to get off at the other end, you can't remain on board.

Thanks, I will try buying it from the Northern ticket office.

For the ferries, I mean according to the website, the Saveaway ticket can only be used after 9.30am. But the next ferry after 9.30am is in the evening peak. So I assume the Saveaway ticket is only valid for ferries in the evening peak.
 

boiledbeans2

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It's normally the same train which arrives from Ormskirk which will form the Blackpool South service :)
Thanks for that info. A little quirk of the railways I guess. In that case, I'm definitely going to Blackpool South via Ormskirk for the Class 15x rides.
 

boiledbeans2

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The quieter parts of the Northern Line are the Kirkby and Hunts Cross branches, but I'd recommend the latter as because it is run together with the Southport route, you'll see a lot more units. The Southport line is definitely the most interesting route with some pretty sections north of Waterloo and overhead views of the city south of it. The Ormskirk line has some good overhead views in the Aintree area and a nice elevated rural section between Maghull North and Town Green. Both the Southport and Ormskirk routes tend to be busy even outside the peaks but the Kirkby and Hunts Cross limbs are relatively quiet.

On the Wirral Line, the northern and southern routes will each offer nine units in service but the southern lines are fairly unappealing with little to see except a glimpse of Port Sunlight village and limited countryside views between Hooton and Chester. The West Kirby line is probably the most interesting route that side of the Mersey for views, especially Moreton to Meols, and the New Brighton line after Wallasey Grove Road gives a good view of the sea. The Chester line tends to be fairly busy outside peak times but the others are quiet.

Stations I'd recommend: Cressington simply because it is a delightful station in one of Liverpool's nicest areas; Kirkdale for views of the nearby depot (including the new 777s); Southport as an impressive terminus station with plenty of stock stabled off-peak and Hamilton Square as a reasonably quiet underground station with three platforms, one at a lower level than the others.
Thanks for the detailed information on Merseyrail!
 

boiledbeans2

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I'm biased :D

But both have their good and not so good bits.

A trip down the Cheshire Lines will see you pass Allerton TMD, home of the 319 and 323 fleet, Fiddlers Ferry Power Station in the distance, the sparsely served station at Sankey for Penketh along with the new station at Warrington West. You'll then pass through Warrington and into the suburbs of Manchester, which aren't that interesting with the exception of crossing the Manchester Ship Canal just after Irlam, and Old Trafford if you're into football-or a largish freight yard if not!

A trip down the Chat Moss will see you have a slow Potter through Suburban Liverpool, through Rainhill and Newton le Willows, followed by a fast run over the Moss, which can be quite fun and noisy in the right part of a 319. The Liverpool end of the Cheshire Lines is nicer than anything beyond Irlam and the Chat Moss is better at the Manchester end.
Chat Moss if you like 323s, as they can get up to a good bit of speed on the section between Newton-Le-Willows & Patricroft. Cheshire Line on a stopper can be a drag, when it calls at tiny stations like Trafford Park, Glazebrook & Birchwood

Thanks for the info! So I guess each route has their advantages and disadvantages. In terms of timing, both take a similar time to get from Liverpool to Manchester.

I guess I will arrive at Liverpool Lime St, look at the type of traction for the next departing service and decide which route to take (e.g. if a Class 195 is the next train out on the Cheshire, then I'll get the Chat Moss line).
 

boiledbeans2

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If you buy it from the Northern ticket office at Lime Street (or the TfW ticket office at Chester) it will come on paper stock. Buy it from a Merseyrail ticket office and they will only sell it on the smartcard (paying the extra £1 fee). Unless it's changed since April when I was last in Liverpool hunting down my last few Merseyrail units needed for mileage (and last TPE 802s)

I'm reading on the Merseyrail website that the Saveaway ticket is also valid on buses. Which buses are they valid on? Is there an easy way to identify those buses, e.g. they are all in a specific livery?
 

Fokx

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I'm reading on the Merseyrail website that the Saveaway ticket is also valid on buses. Which buses are they valid on? Is there an easy way to identify those buses, e.g. they are all in a specific livery?
All of them within Merseyside
 

Vinnym

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Thanks, I will try buying it from the Northern ticket office.

For the ferries, I mean according to the website, the Saveaway ticket can only be used after 9.30am. But the next ferry after 9.30am is in the evening peak. So I assume the Saveaway ticket is only valid for ferries in the evening peak.
You can use a saveaway on the river cruise services, they depart Liverpool on the hour from 10am, however you have to break your journey, with Seacombe terminal closed at present that means you can use the river cruise to Woodside (Birkenhead). You can then wait an hour for the next ferry or continue your journey by train from Hamilton Square which is only a few minutes walk from Woodside. To use the ferry using a saveaway you need to show it at the ticket office and ask for a boarding pass. Hope this is of help.
 

boiledbeans2

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It's normally the same train which arrives from Ormskirk which will form the Blackpool South service :)
On the return journey, it doesn't seem to be the case. I will have a half hour connection at Preston.

Anyway, the train from Ormskirk to Preston departs every hour at xx01, except there's no train at 1001, so there's a 2 hour gap. Why is this the case?

Similarly, there's a 2 hour gap on the return from Preston to Ormskirk between 2026 and 2237.
 

boiledbeans2

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A word of warning. I read on the most recent Avanti thread on Liverpool that this has stopped being the case.
See my last paragraph in post 15.

My ticket will be a restriction 9I, which explcitly states on NRE
"Journeys between London and Liverpool are not valid via Manchester"

So I still should be prepared to argue my case with seat reservation coupons and/or doing a live demonstration of booking a test ticket via the Avanti app.
 
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