Trivia: Competing TOCs that serve the same route

[Taunton]

My point was indeed about end-to-end services, Edinburgh or Oxford to London, but principally about the downside that marketing these non-traditional alternatives has on the established intermediate points along the way for whom no additional accommodation is provided.

 

[DB]

Most posts have missed the stipulation that they need to both be end to end services between A and B.

Using that rule I offer:

Bradford to London (LNER and GC)
Leeds to London (LNER and East Midlands whatever they call themselves now)
Birmingham to London (Avant and Chiltern)
Inverness/Aberdeen to London (LNER and Caledonian Sleeper)

Bradford has one LNER service a day each way, at times not convenient for many people. East Midlands to / from Leeds are very early south and fairly/very late going notth. From having used them Sheffield-Leeds in the past quite often, they are normally nearly empty for that part of the journey - the only real reason for going to and from Leeds is because the HST depot is there.

So to be honest I wouldn't really consider either of these to be competing services - that description better suits cases like LNER / XC / TPE on the ECML north of York, or XC / TPE / Northern between York and Leeds, where the services are frequent enough from all of the operators that there is competition between them, especially when it comes to advance tickets.

 

[Taunton]

Bradford has one LNER service a day each way, at times not convenient for many people. East Midlands to / from Leeds are very early sound and fairly/very late going north. From having used them Sheffield-Leeds in the past quite often, they are normally nearly empty for that part of the journey - the only real reason for going to and from Leeds is because the HST depot is there.

The real reason why they are advertised, and as a through service to London, rather than an ecs, is to make an Orcats raid on London to Leeds fares. They get some revenue even if nobody is in them.

 

[DB]

The real reason why they are advertised, and as a through service to London, rather than an ecs, is to make an Orcats raid on London to Leeds fares. They get some revenue even if nobody is in them.

Aye. Skipton likewise has one in each direction, and to be fair the morning 9-car one is quite well loaded, although a large proportion are Leeds commuters. The northbound in the evening rarely has more than a handful on it, and early this year was downgraded to a 5-car set (which has more than enough capacity).

 

[onlinespotting]

Crewe to Chester avanti and tfw, they form an almost opposite clockface departure, although the avanti shorts are often extended to Holyhead in the summer

 

[xotGD]

More:

Kings Lynn/Cambridge to London

 

[coppercapped]

In the foreword to the White Paper, New Opportunities for the Railways: ‘more competition, greater efficiency and a wider choice of services more closely tailored to what customers want’.

Competition usually either provides an increased customer experience for the same price as before, or provides the same customer experience for a lower price.

All true, but as I wrote the competition was for the franchises, not between the franchises after they had been awarded.

Franchise awards were made to the company offering to take on the operation of each TOC's services for the lowest subsidy, while committing themselves to a programme of service enhancements, improved reliability and punctuality performance and investment in trains and stations. Franchises committed themselves to accept a declining level of year-on-year support from OPRAF. Acceptance of this 'subsidy taper' reflects a general trust in the ability of private sector firms to achieve cuts in operating costs as well as to stimulate growth in business - often by unprecedented levels. In some cases, TOCs undertook to move to a reversal of the flow of payment, whereby they paid OPRAF a premium rather than receiving a subsidy.

The Act gave OPRAF the indirect ability to set fares and Salmon (the Franchising Director and head of OPRAF) later recalled:

I presented a package to Mawhinney and I told him if he wanted lower fare rises, count me in, that was great. He went to see Kenneth Clarke (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) and, slightly to the surprise of the Treasury officials, they did a deal, which was RPI for three years and RPI minus 1 per cent for the following four.

So fare levels were held and for a period trailed inflation. Don't forget the first franchising/privatisation model didn't last for more than a year until Labour replaced the Conservatives in government in 1997 at which point the ground rules changed. What we now have is a situation totally unlike that originally conceived.

 

[Deepgreen]

In the foreword to the White Paper, New Opportunities for the Railways: ‘more competition, greater efficiency and a wider choice of services more closely tailored to what customers want’.

Competition usually either provides an increased customer experience for the same price as before, or provides the same customer experience for a lower price.

It was carefully-worded to avoid having to justify the annual fares increase and also to avoid actually stating that fares would fall, while still making many assume that this would be the case and therefore favour the idea. Given the huge fixed costs of railways, plus the shareholder profit motive, it was obvious that, in general, fares would not fall unless specific cases were subsidised directly by government. There was never any genuine competition between contemporary operators to be had (nor genuine profits), except in a few special cases.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Crewe to Derby - EMR and LNWR (non COVID)

 

[vlad]

Crewe to Derby - EMR and LNWR (non COVID)

I think you mean Crewe to Stoke - LNR have never served Derby.

They don't really compete - the LNR service leaves Crewe 5 minutes before the EMR service so the only reason you'd ever take the EMR service is if they've put a 222 on.

(I appreciate that heading the other way the EMR service runs 20 minutes after the LNR....)

 

[Mogz]

London - Banbury and London - Oxford are both served by Chiltern (to/from Marylebone via High Wycombe) and GWR (to/from Paddington via Reading).

 

[Mikey C]

In reality there is competition between routes, even if they don't serve exactly the same stations

For example with a lot of people in the Chilterns driving to the station, driving to a LNWR station such a Tring or Berko may be more attractive than a Chiltern service from Aylesbury or Wendover. Or they might choose a TfL station like Chesham

 

[yorkie]

Thameslink also covers part of the same route - London Bridge to Norwood Jcn, and the route is served by TfL and Southern.
Thameslink goes on to serve East Croydon alongside Southern services and then out to Horsham, which is also served by Southern.

GTR is the train operating company running trains branded Thameslink and Southern; those two brands (along with a couple of other brands) have been one TOC since 2015

 

[IceAgeComing]

The other Thameslink one you can add is London Bridge-Dartford via Greenwich: four trains an hour are Southeastern (starting at Cannon Street; although not all of them go to Dartford, I think a few go round one of the loops to return via Sidcup or Bexleyheath), two are Thameslink (which go through the core and up to Luton). You could argue further down the line towards Rainham but I think if you were at London Bridge going there you'd pick one of the trains that go fast to Dartford rather than sitting on Thameslink for longer.

Although I don't know if I'd say they are competition: they are part of the same timetable pattern and from my experience everyone that gets on that train towards London gets off at London Bridge and its fairly empty going into the core. Was handy when I moved to North London: I moved from Abbey Wood and so I knew that it seemed empty going north from there when I'd get on in the morning so what I'd do is travel on the Northern Line to work (since the southbound trains that stop at Kentish Town all go via Elephant and Castle for whatever reason) and Thameslink home since the latter was significantly more comfortable and not really any less convenient.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Crewe /Stoke - Manchester with XC & Northern

You forgot TfW.

 

[Jamesrob637]

You forgot TfW.

Yes only Crewe to Stockport and Manchester though

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The real reason why they are advertised, and as a through service to London, rather than an ecs, is to make an Orcats raid on London to Leeds fares. They get some revenue even if nobody is in them.

They ran in service under BR long before ORCATS was a thing... though I agree that's a big reason they still run in service to this day. Without it I'd expect only one or two per day at the most would still run as a passenger service.

 

[sk688]

London to Bath&Bristol

GWR - much more frequent and quicker
SWR - infrequent and slower but much cheaper

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Bradford has one LNER service a day each way, at times not convenient for many people.

The LNER service is also commands "peak" fares M-F.

 

[ALEMASTER]

Sheffield to Manchester has 3 operators - Transpennine Express, East Midlands Railway and Northern, each running roughly hourly.