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Trivia: Less important trains- better rolling stock

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Dai Corner

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Cardiff - Bristol Temple Meads services are normally formed of Cl 165/6 Turbos on the class 1 Portsmouths or Castle class HSTs on the class 2 Taunton stoppers. Few would argue that the former are the longer distance and more important trains or that the latter are superior in terms of comfort and speed.

Are there other routes where such apparent contradictions occur?
 
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Jamesrob637

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Well pretty much anything local in Switzerland has something which, over here, would be deemed far superior for the route now that almost all of their Mk1s and Mk2s are gone!

195s and 331s on some services around Manchester such as Victoria to Preston spring to mind near me. I love a 331 from Manchester to Heaton Chapel too however I appreciate that Blackpool North to Hazel Grove is nearly the best part of 90-100 minutes.
 

43096

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Euston to Birmingham/Crewe: the 350/1/3/4 fleets are far more comfortable than a Pendolino.
 

Jamesrob637

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Euston to Birmingham/Crewe: the 350/1/3/4 fleets are far more comfortable than a Pendolino.

On a par in Standard with the /1 refurb. I sincerely hope you're not directly comparing First Class as the Pendolino's First Class has one of the best seats fitted to any train, anywhere!
 

Bill57p9

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Glasgow Queen Street out via Possilpark: 25 minute all station stopper to Anniesland on either a 158 or a 170 vs 5 hours to Mallaig on a 156 (class 1).
 

yorksrob

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The notable one being that period in the 1990's when the London - Brighton express was run with tarted up Thameslink units while less prestigious services had the far superior CIG's.
 

Dave91131

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Subjective topic as another member eluded to and not by any means a permanent occurance, but one that springs to mind for me is 350/2's on Birmingham - London and Birmingham - Liverpool, whilst 350/1's and 350/3's potter around on the Wolves - Walsall locals.
 

Peter0124

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Newton to Glasgow Central on a 385 (vs a 314 a few years ago). 20-25 minute journey on a 50mph line with 100mph AT200.
 
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There was a time when Bedwyn and some Oxford semifasts were 90mph turbos while the Newbury and Didcot stoppers on the same lines were 110mph electrostars. Although they are both commuter trains (so perhaps not quite what the op was asking for), the stoppers were arguably nicer and had the faster top speed (which is also a bit more of an objective thing to measure)
 
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Depending on availability, you can sometimes see 175s be relegated to Ebbw Vale stoppers and Cheltenham to Maesteg trains while 158s and even 150s work the West Wales- Manchester/ Holyhead services. However this is pretty uncommon and the majority of the time it isn't the case.

I suppose if you're travelling on the Aberdeen- Edinburgh or Highland Main line, you'd much rather travel on a short formed ScotRail HST than an Azuma or a XC Voyager, I know I would. Going by the same logic passengers in Cornwall, Devon and the West of England would probably prefer the local services provided by Castle HSTs to the Class 800/802s on the London expresses or the XC Voyagers.

If you're travelling from Birmingham- Shrewsbury I would assume most prefer the West Midlands 170s to the TfW 158s that travel beyond Shrewsbury to North Wales and Aberystwyth.

If I was travelling from Southampton- Portsmouth I'd sooner travel on a local 450 than a Class 165 or 166, or even a 158. It's not unheard of for 150s to work the route, so I'd definitely take a 450 if that was the case!

I would also agree with the 390 Vs 350 situation on the WCML, I don't mind short journeys on Pendolinos, but most of my long distance journeys on them have been miserable. There's just something stuffy and claustrophobic about them. Meanwhile I'll happily travel on 2+ hour long journey on a 350, they're surprisingly comfortable, and seeing as they can do 110mph they don't feel much slower than the 390s. Nowadays when I travel from Manchester to London I always opt to change at Crewe to the 350 on the semi fast service to Euston. It's definitely slower, but it's cheaper and I find it to be much more comfortable.

These are all the ones I can think of for the time being. Of course, what defines a train as being "better" is mostly subjective, so everyone's opinion is likely to be different.
 

Ianno87

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Have to admit the longer journey to Exeter on a comfy Class 159 seat is very pleasant.
 

Clarence Yard

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Cardiff - Bristol Temple Meads services are normally formed of Cl 165/6 Turbos on the class 1 Portsmouths or Castle class HSTs on the class 2 Taunton stoppers. Few would argue that the former are the longer distance and more important trains or that the latter are superior in terms of comfort and speed.

Are there other routes where such apparent contradictions occur?

I would. It isn't the distance that matters - it's who travels on them and for how long. Most of the trade on the Pompey-Cardiff's is quite local, not long distance - I have the (pre-covid) figures sitting on my desk.

There is more long distance traffic on the Cardiff-Exeter-Penzance corridor.
 

lxfe_mxtterz

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Hope I've understood the question correctly...

Between Guildford and London, the main (fast) service is the South Western Railway Portsmouth to London Waterloo, which is usually operated by a Class 450* - subjective, I know, but personally I find these trains very cramped and unpleasant to travel on.

* Sometimes operated by a much nicer Class 444, however.

On the other hand, the VERY slow Southern stopper between Guildford and London Bridge, which only runs a handful of times per day (not running at the moment though, I think) is operated by a Class 377 - units which, if you get a good set/carriage (i.e. one with 2+2 seating and tables), I find are very pleasant and comfortable to travel on.
 

AM9

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Hope I've understood the question correctly...

Between Guildford and London, the main (fast) service is the South Western Railway Portsmouth to London Waterloo, which is usually operated by a Class 450* - subjective, I know, but personally I find these trains very cramped and unpleasant to travel on.

* Sometimes operated by a much nicer Class 444, however.

On the other hand, the VERY slow Southern stopper between Guildford and London Bridge, which only runs a handful of times per day (not running at the moment though, I think) is operated by a Class 377 - units which, if you get a good set/carriage (i.e. one with 2+2 seating and tables), I find are very pleasant and comfortable to travel on.
Also on SWR services, (not sure if these are still being used), the ridiculous use of class 444 stock on Waterloo - Alton line trains. It is an outer-suburban line just 45 miles from Waterloo to the end of the line with a just over one hour journey time, and the fastest trains have 6 stops so why waste the only EMUs that have layouts designed for long distance runs to regional cities and places as far away as Bournemouth (108 miles) and Weymouth (143 miles)?
 

Dai Corner

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I would. It isn't the distance that matters - it's who travels on them and for how long. Most of the trade on the Pompey-Cardiff's is quite local, not long distance - I have the (pre-covid) figures sitting on my desk.

There is more long distance traffic on the Cardiff-Exeter-Penzance corridor.

I obviously can't argue with the actual figures, but I though most passengers from or via Bristol travelling beyond Bridgwater would be using CrossCountry?
 

D6975

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The CF-Pompey debate has come up before and as a Bristolian I can confirm that they largely empty out on arrival at TM. Not only that but some of the pax who do stay on bail out at Bath. As for doing XC to go west, I always try to do a XC HST when taking my son on hols to Paignton , although this year we may also have the option of a Castle to Newton Abbot for a few minutes on a stopper to PGN. Both these options being superior to an hour and a half plus on a Voyager.

As for 350 vs Pendo, when doing a NW rover a few years ago (pre Cumbrian 37s), I quickly decided that Preston-Carlisle direct was best done on a TP 350/4. I found the TP 350 to be far superior to a Pendo.
 
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swt_passenger

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Also on SWR services, (not sure if these are still being used), the ridiculous use of class 444 stock on Waterloo - Alton line trains. It is an outer-suburban line just 45 miles from Waterloo to the end of the line with a just over one hour journey time, and the fastest trains have 6 stops so why waste the only EMUs that have layouts designed for long distance runs to regional cities and places as far away as Bournemouth (108 miles) and Weymouth (143 miles)?
It was all about appropriate total seating capacity, but 444s don’t run to Alton since a fairly recent timetable change - Dec 2018 maybe?
 
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I've done the full journey from Cardiff to Portsmouth several times now, as well as journeys to Southampton. It definitely does get quieter after Bristol.

I remember when the castle sets were introduced I was disappointed that they weren't being used on the Portsmouth services, putting them on the slow Taunton stoppers seemed like a waste. However I then learned that HSTs can't run to Portsmouth for reasons I've now forgotten (feel free to remind me).

Is there a similar reason for them not being used on the Brighton to Great Malvern and Gloucester to Weymouth services? I know the case for them is similar to the Cardiff to Portsmouth services in that most of the journeys are probably local, but Castles seem like they'd be better for those longer distance services.

Hope I've understood the question correctly...

Between Guildford and London, the main (fast) service is the South Western Railway Portsmouth to London Waterloo, which is usually operated by a Class 450* - subjective, I know, but personally I find these trains very cramped and unpleasant to travel on.

* Sometimes operated by a much nicer Class 444, however.

On the other hand, the VERY slow Southern stopper between Guildford and London Bridge, which only runs a handful of times per day (not running at the moment though, I think) is operated by a Class 377 - units which, if you get a good set/carriage (i.e. one with 2+2 seating and tables), I find are very pleasant and comfortable to travel on.

I wouldn't call 450s uncomfortable (see above for my thoughts on the similar 350s) but I would agree that 377s are better. Still, I'd have no issue travelling on a 450 up to Waterloo.
 

swt_passenger

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I remember when the castle sets were introduced I was disappointed that they weren't being used on the Portsmouth services, putting them on the slow Taunton stoppers seemed like a waste. However I then learned that HSTs can't run to Portsmouth for reasons I've now forgotten (feel free to remind me).

Is there a similar reason for them not being used on the Brighton to Great Malvern and Gloucester to Weymouth services? I know the case for them is similar to the Cardiff to Portsmouth services in that most of the journeys are probably local, but Castles seem like they'd be better for those longer distance services.
HST power cars (but not Mk 3 coaches) are out of gauge somewhere on the St Denys to Fareham section.
 

bussikuski179

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Once again not British but the Finnish HLV 235/230 Z line commuter trains have been InterCity stock operated for the past 3 or so weeks, even a Pendolino popped over at one point. The Z is a somewhat long distance route, on these 2 services especially since they’re peak hour extensions to/from Kouvola when normally the Z terminates at Lahti, but still a commuter train since it stops at places like Nastola and Henna, quite small stations.
 

Irascible

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Have to admit the longer journey to Exeter on a comfy Class 159 seat is very pleasant.
Yes, the only way I'll go now.

HST power cars (but not Mk 3 coaches) are out of gauge somewhere on the St Denys to Fareham section.
Wonder if it's the exhaust deflectors ( which weren't original equipment ) & if they're still needed. One might also argue that the HST on the Taunton stopper is a subjectively better train than the XC Voyagers for a Taunton-Bristol trip...
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Before COVID, fasts on the Portsmouth Direct Line were booked entirely 450 on Saturdays, while the majority of Portsmouth via Basingstoke services were 444.
 

swt_passenger

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Before COVID, fasts on the Portsmouth Direct Line were booked entirely 450 on Saturdays, while the majority of Portsmouth via Basingstoke services were 444.
Since 2007 or thereabouts because Saturday is busy all day on the route? Who’d have thought it...
 

PHILIPE

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There is a 158 attached to a 150 on the St Ives Branch today (Booked 2 x 150) and a 175 was seen on the Central Wales line yesterday although not the full length due to service disruption.
 
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