Trivia: Oldest route number still in use

[nw1]

A number of former Aldershot & District route numbers (latterly Alder Valley in National Bus Company days) still survive, most (if not all) dating from as far back as the post-war period, indeed if not before:

• 13: Alton - Kingsley - Bordon - Liphook
  (now Stagecoach South)
• 19: Aldershot - Farnham - Frensham - Churt - Hindhead - Haslemere
  (now Stagecoach South)
• 28: Guildford - Worplesdon - Pirbright - Brookwood - Knaphill - Woking
  (now Falcon Buses)
• 34: Guildford - Woking - Knaphill - Bisley - Lightwater - Bagshot - Camberley
  (now Arriva Kent & Surrey)

Aldershot - Ash - Normandy - Guildford route 20 (Stagecoach South) was also doing quite well. I can find reference of the route and number back to Aldershot & District days in 1930, so it may even go back as far as the 1920s. Sadly it lost it's historic number for 'KITE' in 2015, although I think it may also have been '220' for a period after the merger of Aldershot & District and Thames Valley into 'Alder Valley'. Therefore I guess there was a break for a while between circa 1930 and 2015 (even if relatively short in the grand scheme of things!).

Today, Stagecoach South also run a 1 between Aldershot - North Camp - Farnborough - Frimley - Camberley. Historically, the Aldershot & District Traction Company also ran a 1 covering this same stretch (and extending further north), however there was a fairly long period of I think at least 2/3 decades where it wasn't numbered the 1, so I guess this doesn't count but is more a coincidence. The current '1' only came about in around 2003 when Stagecoach simplified their 'Blackwater Valley' network around Aldershot, Farnborough and Camberley, with new low route numbers used to replace an array of mixed and varied numbers of what was a fairly unnecessarily complex network.

Many of the above haven't run continuously though,

For example the 13 was the 213 in Alder Valley days in the 1980s, both before and after deregulation. It was 213 as far back as 1978; this was before I moved to the south but I have seen a photo on Flickr from that year of a 213 en route to Haslemere.

Similarlly the 19 was the 219 (and went to Midhurst until October 1986, when it was split into the 219 north of Haslemere and the 229 south, though I'm not sure of the reason for this as both segments used the same vehicle types (predominantly Leyland Nationals with some VRs). The 219 remained the 219 until, I think, 1 June 1993 when the new Stagecoach network kicked in.
The 28 was the 280 in the 1980s prior to October 1986, and the 34 was the 284, before the 28 and 34 returned in October 1986.

Slightly bizarrely, in the late 1980s the southbound 34 was the 35, with a similar imbalance on the 54/55 (Guildford-Chobham via Woking, formerly the 285). The other Guildford-Woking route, the 48 to Staines, didn't do that though. Not sure if they still do that with the 34, i.e. call the southbound journeys 35.

Regarding the 20, this was also the 452 in the 1980s prior to deregulation, becoming the 20 in October 1986. It does seem to be the case that it was 220 before 452; again, before my time but again, I have seen a 1970s photo with a Guildford-Aldershot route numbered 220.


In the Southampton area, we did, I believe, have some long-standing route numbers, including the 30/32 to Totton, the 47 to WInchester, the 48 to Fair Oak and the 52 to Petersfield. While well before my time, I remember seeing a Hants and Dorset site once which listed historical routes and all those routes seemed to be very long-standing (pre-nationalisation). They survived relatively recently, to 2003, and the 47 lasted a little longer until October 2004 I think. (Slightly bizarrely, they renumbered most of the Blue Line routes in May 2003, so that most of the low numbers from 1-20 had routes, but didn't have a route 1. It's as if for some reason they meant to renumber the 47 to the 1 at that time, but for whatever reason, held off a bit longer.)

 

[Flange Squeal]

@nickw1 I’m guessing some of these interruptions may have come about as a result of the merger of Aldershot & District and Thames Valley into Alder Valley, to avoid duplication of numbers in the new larger operating area? Nice that they subsequently saw their original numbers restored though.

In regards to the 34/35, in more recent times both numbers are used in both directions these days, and differentiate routings. Both run Guildford to Camberley via Woking, St Johns, Knaphill, Bisley, West End, Lightwater and Bagshot. The differences are between Guildford and Woking the 34 runs via Sutton Green and Westfield, whereas the 35 runs via Mayford. North of Woking, the 35 runs a bit deeper into the residential roads of Lightwater, where as the 34 sticks to the main road as it passes through - apart from that they now shadow eachother to give a roughly 20 min combined frequency (does mean an uneven 20/40 min headway over the southern part of the 34 though).

Until 2011 they ran more radically different between Lightwater and Camberley - the 34 via Bagshot, the 35 via Deepcut, Frimley Green and Frimley Park Hospital. The 35 was also diverted via Hermitage Estate (between St John’s and Knaphill, and already served by the 34 evenings/Sundays) from this same time for four years, during a period of various fiddlings with routes 28/48.

 

[jamesst]

26/27 in Liverpool not sure how long that's been going.

My dad (in his 80s now) remembers that as a tram route with the same numbers!

 

[Jordan Adam]

Aberdeen's Service 1 can be traced back as far as 1882 when it was a horse drawn tram service operating from Market Street to Holburn Street (Bloomfield Road), by 1888 it had been extended along King Street to Merkland Road, then by 1894 it was operating from Bridge Of Dee along the full length of Holburn Street, Union Street and King Street to the Bridge Of Don. Publicity had the service "route" branded as red and it became known as "The Bridges". In 1958 the service was converted to bus operation and extended over the Bridge Of Don to Balgownie, although the service has seen changes at either end with it being extended within Garthdee and Bridge Of Don the core section of route from the Bridge Of Dee to the Bridge Of Don remains unchanged.

The outgoing 1/2 route branding applied to 15 Enviro500s in 2016 even takes a nod to past with the vehicles branded "The Bridges".

Tri-axle rarities... (64995 & 38216)

Seen here on Aberdeen's Castle Street are First Aberdeen's Alexander Dennis Enviro500 38216 operating TheBridges 1 to Danestone, with Vanhool A330 64995 sitting behind operating a Salmon Line 15 to Beach Retail Park. 38216 was new to First Glasgow as a batch of 25 in 2009 for the popular...

www.flickr.com

With the rather smart "Urban" liveries taking over the name has unfortunately now been dropped.

First Aberdeen 38220 SN09CCY (20th April 2021)

Photo Date: 20/04/2021 ©Jordan Adam.

www.flickr.com

Two trams at Bridge Of Dee Terminus in the early 1950s.

Aberdeen Trams in 1951 by Norman Hurford

In the 1950s Norman Hurford went on a tour of various cities in the UK to ride on the tram systems. The photographs he took on these tours are now a record of a lost era of urban transport. The print is annotated " Aberdeen Bridge of Dee Cars 20 & 33 19-7-1951" Anybody who can shed any light...

www.flickr.com

 

[nw1]

@nickw1 I’m guessing some of these interruptions may have come about as a result of the merger of Aldershot & District and Thames Valley into Alder Valley, to avoid duplication of numbers in the new larger operating area? Nice that they subsequently saw their original numbers restored though.

In regards to the 34/35, in more recent times both numbers are used in both directions these days, and differentiate routings. Both run Guildford to Camberley via Woking, St Johns, Knaphill, Bisley, West End, Lightwater and Bagshot. The differences are between Guildford and Woking the 34 runs via Sutton Green and Westfield, whereas the 35 runs via Mayford. North of Woking, the 35 runs a bit deeper into the residential roads of Lightwater, where as the 34 sticks to the main road as it passes through - apart from that they now shadow eachother to give a roughly 20 min combined frequency (does mean an uneven 20/40 min headway over the southern part of the 34 though).

Until 2011 they ran more radically different between Lightwater and Camberley - the 34 via Bagshot, the 35 via Deepcut, Frimley Green and Frimley Park Hospital. The 35 was also diverted via Hermitage Estate (between St John’s and Knaphill, and already served by the 34 evenings/Sundays) from this same time for four years, during a period of various fiddlings with routes 28/48.

Thanks. I have to admit I'm completely out of touch with the former "Guildford garage" and London Country workings in the Guildford area, last thing I remember was around 1993 they combined both into Guildford and West Surrey so you ended up with some VRs on route 8 (formerly G8, formerly 408A, no idea if it's still the 8 now) to Merrow (Bushy Hill), which formerly saw Atlanteans in the 80s.

There was a pleasing logic to the way NBC companies avoided duplication of numbers. Maybe it's just the way my mind works, but it seems a bit 'messy' for one bus company to have duplicate bus numbers. For example I remember Badgerline duplicated the low numbers in both Bath and Weston-super-Mare, and that always seemed a bit messy to my mind.

In this example though it was fine because by 1986 Alder Valley (North) was The Bee Line, an entirely different company.

What about the following? I am not sure if any of these still run but they were still running last time I looked, which was I think in the last 10 years. I am fairly sure the 700 still runs though not sure how old it is.

408 Guildford-Croydon 'Express'
700 Portsmouth-Brighton
173 Bath-Wells
176 Bath-Shepton Mallet
184 Bath-Frome

 

[cnjb8]

I can't think of owt else but this:
TrentBarton's Red Arrow (Nottingham to Derby fast) can trace it's roots back to the 1950s when the fast A52 expressway opened between the two cities. The Red Arrow brand is 26 years old now. Much more modern then the others!

 

[Flange Squeal]

What about the following? I am not sure if any of these still run but they were still running last time I looked, which was I think in the last 10 years. I am fairly sure the 700 still runs though not sure how old it is.

408 Guildford-Croydon 'Express'
700 Portsmouth-Brighton
173 Bath-Wells
176 Bath-Shepton Mallet
184 Bath-Frome

I vaguely remember the L&C* Lances on the 408! These days that corridor has been divided up. The Guildford - Leatherhead - Epsom section is largely today's Arriva 479, operated from Guildford garage. The Epsom - Sutton - Croydon section I don't think has a direct service anymore. Epsom and Croydon are linked by the 166, but via Banstead and Purley, not taking in Sutton. Epsom and Sutton are linked via Ewell by the 470, and Sutton and Croydon are linked via Carshalton by the 154. The 408 number still in use, but as a much shorter weekday route operated by Falcon Coaches. It operates broadly hourly Epsom - Ashtead - Leatherhead, then continuing every two hours alternately to Effingham via Great Bookham, or Cobham via Oxshott.

The 700 is these days still a Portsmouth to Brighton service, but I don't think there are any through journeys anymore. It's essentially three overlapping/connecting sections, but all numbered 700. Portsmouth to Flansham Park (Bognor), Chichester to Littlehampton, and Wick to Brighton.

* Mod note - jargon, please edit to define L&C. Thanks

Edit to clarify as requested by "Mod" (presume this is short for 'Moderator', but maybe a Ska fan?):- "L&C" stands for 'London & Country', who operated the route 408 Guildford to Croydon service mentioned in the quoted post.

 

[Busaholic]

I vaguely remember the L&C Lances on the 408! These days that corridor has been divided up. The Guildford - Leatherhead - Epsom section is largely today's Arriva 479, operated from Guildford garage. The Epsom - Sutton - Croydon section I don't think has a direct service anymore. Epsom and Croydon are linked by the 166, but via Banstead and Purley, not taking in Sutton. Epsom and Sutton are linked via Ewell by the 470, and Sutton and Croydon are linked via Carshalton by the 154. The 408 number still in use, but as a much shorter weekday route operated by Falcon Coaches. It operates broadly hourly Epsom - Ashtead - Leatherhead, then continuing every two hours alternately to Effingham via Great Bookham, or Cobham via Oxshott.

The 700 is these days still a Portsmouth to Brighton service, but I don't think there are any through journeys anymore. It's essentially three overlapping/connecting sections, but all numbered 700. Portsmouth to Flansham Park (Bognor), Chichester to Littlehampton, and Wick to Brighton.

The X26 also covers Croydon to Sutton (and beyond) so equates better to that part of the 408 express.

 

[Flange Squeal]

The X26 also covers Croydon to Sutton (and beyond) so equates better to that part of the 408 express.

Thanks for that. Couldn't remember the exact routing the 408 took east of Epsom, other than it went via Sutton, and totally forgot about the X26!

 

[NorthOxonian]

What about the following? I am not sure if any of these still run but they were still running last time I looked, which was I think in the last 10 years. I am fairly sure the 700 still runs though not sure how old it is.

408 Guildford-Croydon 'Express'
700 Portsmouth-Brighton
173 Bath-Wells
176 Bath-Shepton Mallet
184 Bath-Frome

The 173 is definitely still around, but the other two don't look to exist. There's no 176 in the area at all now, while the 184 seems to have been curtailed at Midsomer Norton in 2015.

 

[lincman]

First Manchester service 59 Shaw to Manchester

 

[jp4712]

First Manchester service 59 Shaw to Manchester

Not bad, not bad... the 59 started as a tram service, instituted on 9 June 1925 as part of the purchase of the Middleton Electric Tramways system. It was converted to bus on 20 March 1932 and although it's had changes to termini at both ends, it's still substantially the same service. It therefore predates the 17 which is generally regarded as Greater Manchester's longest use of the same number for the same bus service, which was given that number from 3 March 1930.

If you're going to include routes that carried over the same service number from tram to bus, then Greater Manchester's candidate is the 53. This service began in 1901, given its service number in 1914, then famously became the first really big tram conversion in the UK on 3 March 1930. However from the millennium onwards there were a lot of changes to the 53's route, and today's Go North West 53 has probably less than half of its length in common with the original 53.

 

[Busaholic]

Not bad, not bad... the 59 started as a tram service, instituted on 9 June 1925 as part of the purchase of the Middleton Electric Tramways system. It was converted to bus on 20 March 1932 and although it's had changes to termini at both ends, it's still substantially the same service. It therefore predates the 17 which is generally regarded as Greater Manchester's longest use of the same number for the same bus service, which was given that number from 3 March 1930.

If you're going to include routes that carried over the same service number from tram to bus, then Greater Manchester's candidate is the 53. This service began in 1901, given its service number in 1914, then famously became the first really big tram conversion in the UK on 3 March 1930. However from the millennium onwards there were a lot of changes to the 53's route, and today's Go North West 53 has probably less than half of its length in common with the original 53.

The 53 seems an excellent candidate to me, if the number has been in continuous use since 1901 on a significant section of its original route.

 

[jp4712]

The 53 seems an excellent candidate to me, if the number has been in continuous use since 1901 on a significant section of its original route.

Strictly speaking it would be 1914, as Manchester's services were un-numbered until then. I'm sorry to say that I don't know the exact date in 1914.

 

[Busaholic]

Strictly speaking it would be 1914, as Manchester's services were un-numbered until then. I'm sorry to say that I don't know the exact date in 1914.

Don't worry - at this stage, I don't think it matters.

 

[John Webb]

The 84 bus, running from the Golders Green terminus of the then new Hampstead Tube through to St Albans in 1912 still runs although it is now from Potters Bar to St Albans. Seems to be a candidate for one of the longest-running routes.

 

[Deerfold]

I can't think of owt else but this:
TrentBarton's Red Arrow (Nottingham to Derby fast) can trace it's roots back to the 1950s when the fast A52 expressway opened between the two cities. The Red Arrow brand is 26 years old now. Much more modern then the others!

Although in the early 90s it was a two-hourly extension of the TransPeak Manchester-Derby, later joined in the alternate hour by the Red Arrow which ultimately took that section of route over completely.

It's also been numbered the 252 (was that in the 80s?).

 

[cnjb8]

Although in the early 90s it was a two-hourly extension of the TransPeak Manchester-Derby, later joined in the alternate hour by the Red Arrow which ultimately took that section of route over completely.

It's also been numbered the 252 (was that in the 80s?).

I think I can recall it being numbered something like the 252.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The 173 is definitely still around, but the other two don't look to exist. There's no 176 in the area at all now, while the 184 seems to have been curtailed at Midsomer Norton in 2015.

The 173 is indeed still around though it’s a 1980s creation. The 184 was reduced to a tendered Frome to Midsomer Norton run in 2015, with the Bath portion extended to Wells as the 174 via Shepton Mallet.

That move saw Somerset withdraw the 776 Shepton to M Norton that was the remnant of the 176.

 

[nw1]

The 173 is indeed still around though it’s a 1980s creation. The 184 was reduced to a tendered Frome to Midsomer Norton run in 2015, with the Bath portion extended to Wells as the 174 via Shepton Mallet.

That move saw Somerset withdraw the 776 Shepton to M Norton that was the remnant of the 176.

Ah OK, still impressive enough for the 173. My earliest exposure to buses in the Bath area was 1993 and it seemed entrenched by then.

If we discount minor route renumberings (e.g. 19 to 219 and back again - already mentioned above) another candidate is the 60/260 Bognor to Midhurst. This appears to have run continuously on the exact same route since at least 1969 (source: Southdown timetable on timetableworld.com), except for a few years from 1993-99 when, as the 260 and later the 60, it extended through to Guildford as a joint working with Stagecoach Hants and Surrey, ex Alder Valley.

With some of the classic Alder Valley Nationals still about at that time, it meant some of the classic Alder Valley registrations such as NPJ4xxR or TPE1xxS made it through to Bognor. It also meant that, for a while, single-deckers dominated the route as the Midhurst-Haslemere section has to be mostly single-decker due to the low bridge on the B2131 - otherwise, the 60/260 has been dominated by double-deckers.

The 60/260 seems to have continuously maintained the same time slot out of Midhurst at around the half hour, though relatively recently (late 90s?) a second journey an hour was added.