TRIVIA: Operators (other than LT) with bespoke vehicle designs

[AY1975]

What about the articulated buses used on the Sheffield city centre "Clipper" service in the 1980s?

 

[GusB]

What about the articulated buses used on the Sheffield city centre "Clipper" service in the 1980s?

They wouldn't count because they weren't built for one specific operator.

 

[DunsBus]

Iirc Quest struggled like anything to package the drivetrain components, which I believe were a Ford Cargo engine driving through what I've heard described as a "chain linked u-drive"

Apparently they were a maintenance nightmare especially compared to the other vehicles in use at the time, mostly due to the low floor layout much like more modern psv's.

Just take a look under a Trident for example and you'll see how much of a struggle it was to package engine + gearbox + driveline into such a small space - not much room left under the bonnet!

Quest's venture into coaches was even less successful. I remember there was one, the highest-numbered of the seventeen Quest VM coaches supplied to Excelsior in 1984, lasting only for a number of weeks before expiring spectacularly on the M27.

 

[ajrm]

Were the first mainstream low-floor single decks the Merseyside Neoplan N4016s on L-TKB* regs (a N4014 demo on a K-EWG reg preceded them)? The demo ended up in Northern Ireland with Ulsterbus while the N4016s led a full service life, well into the Arriva North West era. Locals are welcome to correct me on this, but weren't they confined to the 18A (Croxteth Park Circular) for most of their lives, at least in the Arriva era (linked image from the DF57 OXF Flickr stream)?

Arriva North West & Wales 6402 L402 TKB, Liverpool 21st Oct 2006

Arriva North West & Wales Neoplan N4016 6402 L402 TKB. Ex MTL North, February 2000.

www.flickr.com

*: Two (6411/6412) were delievered with L-THF regs before reverting to L-TKB regs a few months after delivery.

IIRC one of the Merseyside Neoplans was the very first to enter service, but the London Wrights order was probably what set the ball rolling in the industry. Both were 1993, as was the single Scania for Tayside which was the first to enter service in Scotland (and, I suspect, the first to be bought by a UK operator as a commercial proposition without external subsidy).

 

[carlberry]

They wouldn't count because they weren't built for one specific operator.

The 1979 MAN ones were unique in the UK, the 1980 Leyland ones were a unique chassis type and body maker (British Airways had similar but a different chassis type and Roe body) and the 1985 ones were a unique Leyland chassis and DAB body.

 

[GusB]

The 1979 MAN ones were unique in the UK, the 1980 Leyland ones were a unique chassis type and body maker (British Airways had similar but a different chassis type and Roe body) and the 1985 ones were a unique Leyland chassis and DAB body.

Just because only one operator took a particular type doesn't necessarily make them bespoke, though.

 

[DunsBus]

What about the various generations of vehicles which operated the Border Courier services in the Scottish Borders over the 28 years - 1979 to 2007 - that they were in operation? They were all built to a passenger & goods specification as the services transported medical supplies between hospitals and health centres, in addition to their passenger roles.

 

[AY1975]

They wouldn't count because they weren't built for one specific operator.

So does that mean it just so happens that no other operator ordered them? Obviously that's not the same as a design that was intended for one particular operator.

I would guess that there might be other examples of models that were available to anyone who might order them, but in practice only one operator ever ordered them. That might potentially warrant a separate thread, although I suppose it could be covered in the thread linked from entry 85 above.

 

[CBlue]

But then the Trident had the fully low floor to the back of the bus, whereas the smaller Dart SLF (and later E200s) only has the low floor section at the front, so the packaging at the rear shouldn't be any more difficult than on the high floor Dart?

I must be missing something here, to what are you referring to? The Quests?

Back when the Quest 80 was designed small engines with the required power outputs weren't available. It was with the advent of the Cummins B series in the mid 1980s that a compact engine design with good packaging became available - as Dennis soon found out a year or two later when Dart development started.

 

[cnjb8]

Just because only one operator took a particular type doesn't necessarily make them bespoke, though.

Thank you! This is what I was trying to say!

 

[jp4712]

This has been a fascinating thread, and I thank all the contributors very much. I suspect that one of the reasons it has generated so many ideas is that until recently, buses were in general much more built to the exact specifications of the operator and not off-the-shelf. Take as an example my own Bristol RE, built with Marshall body: Bristol RE buses with Marshall bodies were supplied to North Western, Southdown, Aldershot & District, East Midland, Ribble, South Wales and Western Welsh - some 250 buses for seven customers. Yet some had Gardner engines, some Leyland, RESL or RELL, making a difference of 4 feet in length; and don't get me started on seat moquette, seat layout, height of the front grille and so on. So very much not bespoke, but every operator specified things that only it required.

Perhaps there are several definitions of 'bespoke'. Here's my attempt, with example:

1. A vehicle type that's obviously different from the norm is specified by one customer alone, and delivered only to that customer. Examples would be BMMO's postwar output, also the very short Walsall Fleetlines (but see option 3 below), or London FRM1.

2. A vehicle that is offered for general sale but which performs so badly that only one operator buys it. Examples would be the SHMD Atkinson double decker, or the Marshall double deck bodies bought by Leicester. I'd also put the dual-door Edinburgh Lynxes here, as it was a generally-available option that, to the best of my knowledge, only Lothian availed themselves of. You could also put prototypes in this category where only one or two were made before the project ended.

3. Vehicles that were originally built to the specifications of one operator, but a couple of others like the look of it and also buy it. Examples would be the Routemasters bought by Northern; the Mancunian, sold to neighbour/rival Salford as the 'Salcunian'; the later Walsall Fleetline design, which few people appreciate that the Stalybridge Joint Board also bought; or the 1960s Liverpool body design, also bought by Bury and Bolton Corporations. You could also plead that the GM Standard Northern Counties design fits into this category as it was taken by several independents such as Delaine.

4. A vehicle that isn't exactly bespoke in being designed from the floor up for the requirements of one operator, but with more structural (usually body) modification than the normal run-of-the-mill specification changes like the Bristol REs mentioned above. Examples would be Glenton Tours' centre entrances long after everyone else had gone to front entrances; East Yorkshire's Beverley Bar buses; or Tyneside's nearside staircases. Were South Yorkshire unique in specifying Rolls Royce engines for many of their Dennis Dominators?

5. Modifications that aren't truly bespoke but are sufficiently unusual or distinctive that they're regarded as 'signature' choices by the operator. The difference between 4 and 5 is subjective but I'd put Salford's strange extended blind handle frames in this category, or the aforementioned Hants & Dorset ferry cut-aways. I'd also put later GM Standards in this category as I think they were the only ones to specify a particular automatic gearbox.

6. Unique combinations of chassis and body - the body is common, the chassis is common, but the combination is unique. For example there were seven Foden-NC buses completed but only one had an East Lancs body. Or the Albion Aberdonians supplied to Manchester with Seddon bodies (and nasty things they were, too).

It's a very interesting topic!

1. It doesn't get much more bespoke than this...
1965 BHA399C Midland Red BMMO D9 by Andrew Farmer, on Flickr

2. The Atkinson PD746 wasn't designed for SHMD - they were the only people unlucky enough to buy one...
SHMD 70 UMA370 Boyle St 4-12-10 by Mark Amis, on Flickr

3. Walsall weren't the only people to take short Fleetlines.
An unconventional bus by Museum of Transport Greater Manchester archive, on Flickr

Liverpool to Bury in one body design...
Liverpool L501 501KD & Bury 116 REN116 Merseyside Transport Trust Open Day 14 July 2013 by DMC1947, on Flickr

4. Nearside staircases were unique to Tyneside. Forward visibility from the lower deck wasn't great!
GBB516K Leyland Atlantean TWPTE 716 Pilgrim St Newcastle 22/4/1977 by Geoff Allan, on Flickr

5. Only Salford specified the big frame for the blind handles so the conductor didn't have to climb. Does that make this bus bespoke?
Gloss amongst the grime by Museum of Transport Greater Manchester archive, on Flickr

6. Very few Foden-NCs, and only one of them was East Lancs.
South Yorkshire PTE: 511 (SWG311S) in Leopold Street, Sheffield by Mega Anorak, on Flickr

 

[Roilshead]

Only Salford specified the big frame for the blind handles so the conductor didn't have to climb. Does that make this bus bespoke?

They were also specified by Huddersfield JOC - not as widely, but they weren't unique to Salford. And no, it wouldn't make for a bespoke bus - any more than different destination displays, upholsery, or Sims/CAV electrical equipment, etc etc.

 

[Jamie45]

Only because Trent were delighted to get rid of them!

I only simply joined this forum; yes, the Tempo SR's at Ipswich Buses are unpredictable, rattly and have warranty issues seemingly. Even one of them was off the road for over a month.

 

[cnjb8]

I only simply joined this forum; yes, the Tempo SR's at Ipswich Buses are unpredictable, rattly and have warranty issues seemingly. Even one of them was off the road for over a month.

Ipswich can keep them, they were awful at Trent too!
It’s more common than you think for buses to be off the road for a month

 

[Statto]

Were the first mainstream low-floor single decks the Merseyside Neoplan N4016s on L-TKB* regs (a N4014 demo on a K-EWG reg preceded them)? The demo ended up in Northern Ireland with Ulsterbus while the N4016s led a full service life, well into the Arriva North West era. Locals are welcome to correct me on this, but weren't they confined to the 18A (Croxteth Park Circular) for most of their lives, at least in the Arriva era (linked image from the DF57 OXF Flickr stream)?

Arriva North West & Wales 6402 L402 TKB, Liverpool 21st Oct 2006

Arriva North West & Wales Neoplan N4016 6402 L402 TKB. Ex MTL North, February 2000.

www.flickr.com

*: Two (6411/6412) were delievered with L-THF regs before reverting to L-TKB regs a few months after delivery.

Not sure if the Neoplans were owned Merseytravel, or MTL when new, but they were allocated to the small network of cross Liverpool city centre routes with Merseytravel smart branding, in the late 90s [just before Arriva brought MTL] Arriva won the tender for these routes, so the Neoplans ended up being allocated to the 18A, & mostly stayed on that route until withdrawal.

Here's one in original livery, on one of the original routes

L410TKB, Neoplan L410TKB, Merseytravel Smart Bus April 1994rpool Smart Bus April 1994

Explore D464-Darren Hall's 12530 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

Just to add, the Neoplans spent 16 or so years at MTL then MTLs successor Arriva, which is pretty good going considering they were non standard, & non standard buses tend to be withdrawn early.

 

[A0wen]

Quest's venture into coaches was even less successful. I remember there was one, the highest-numbered of the seventeen Quest VM coaches supplied to Excelsior in 1984, lasting only for a number of weeks before expiring spectacularly on the M27.

Not entirely Quest's fault that - the VM IIRC stood for Vernon Maitland who was the owner of Excelsior and had long been loyal to Ford for his coaches. When Ford pulled out of coach chassis manufacture, Maitland approached Quest for a bespoke build which used Ford mechanics.

Another "bespoke", not Quest though was the Ward Dalesman

Essay : Not their finest hour - Ward Bros & ACE Ltd - AROnline

Mike Humble Ward Brothers of Lepton near Huddersfield at one point ran a medium sized coach business operating a mixed range of services including

www.aronline.co.uk

 

[341o2]

Am I imagining it, or did Nottingham operate the short-lived Dennis Arrow double decker that I only personally remember otherwise with Capital Citybus in London?

Dennis also designed the Pelican, only one was ever built in 1956

 

[bobslack1982]

Am I imagining it, or did Nottingham operate the short-lived Dennis Arrow double decker that I only personally remember otherwise with Capital Citybus in London?

They all seemingly ended up in Leeds with First and Arriva operating different batches of the ex-London ones iirc.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They all seemingly ended up in Leeds with First and Arriva operating different batches of the ex-London ones iirc.

The ones delivered to London & Country ended up with Arriva Yorkshire.

Some of the Capital Citybus ones ended up with First Leeds but a number didn’t, going to First Manchester via Bath EDIT: I think some ended up with Stagecoach with the Wigan depot sale

 

[Jamie45]

Ipswich can keep them, they were awful at Trent too!
It’s more common than you think for buses to be off the road for a month

I think it was Stephen Bryce's idea to have these buses, the general manager of Ipswich Buses.
I rather see these Tempo SR's in the airport territory or Australia/New Zealand.

 

[cnjb8]

I think it was Stephen Bryce's idea to have these buses, the general manager of Ipswich Buses.
I rather see these Tempo SR's in the airport territory or Australia/New Zealand.

I feel bad for you in Ipswich. Certainly don’t miss them. In fact I think Trents order in 2012 was meant to be all Tempo SR, but they changed to the Versa.

 

[43106]

This thread seems to have forgotten Barton. They had a small number of one-offs, such as the NCME bodied Dennis Loline that was only 12' 6" high, and a Bedford VAL with DUAL-DOOR coachwork, Strachan's I think.
The Sutherland Transport & Trading Company (STTC) ran bus services between Lairg and Tongue, Scourie and Durness. They used Duple bus-bodied Bedford VAS's (or similar), but they had a dedicated compartment for mail that only the GPO could access. The PSV Circle and/or the Omnibus Society (or whoever formulates the seating arrangements) denoted this by prefixing it with an M, e.g. MB21F.
Although not unique by any standard, there was a coach company, GLENTON's of Peckham Rye, London, had CENTRE doors on its coaches for years, certainly up to 1969, long after the rest of industry gave up on the idea!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This thread seems to have forgotten Barton. They had a small number of one-offs, such as the NCME bodied Dennis Loline that was only 12' 6" high, and a Bedford VAL with DUAL-DOOR coachwork, Strachan's I think.
The Sutherland Transport & Trading Company (STTC) ran bus services between Lairg and Tongue, Scourie and Durness. They used Duple bus-bodied Bedford VAS's (or similar), but they had a dedicated compartment for mail that only the GPO could access. The PSV Circle and/or the Omnibus Society (or whoever formulates the seating arrangements) denoted this by prefixing it with an M, e.g. MB21F.
Although not unique by any standard, there was a coach company, GLENTON's of Peckham Rye, London, had CENTRE doors on its coaches for years, certainly up to 1969, long after the rest of industry gave up on the idea!

Glentons Tours took their last batch of centre entrance Leopards in 1979

 

[Strathclyder]

6. Very few Foden-NCs, and only one of them was East Lancs.
South Yorkshire PTE: 511 (SWG311S) in Leopold Street, Sheffield by Mega Anorak, on Flickr

Indeed, only 8 Foden-NCs were ever built; the eighth being a uncompleted test rig. Have always wondered why 511 had a East Lancs body. There may be no truth to this whatsoever (those who do know, please sound off in a reply), but I seem to remember reading that SYPTE & Northern Counties had a falling out, hence 511's EL body. Like I say, completely unsubstantiated and most likely total hogwash, but am open to correction/elaboration.

@Statto Most interesting, thanks for that. Indeed, given their non-standard nature, they had a very good innings indeed. A pity none survived into preservation, I have to say.

 

[Eyersey468]

East Yorkshire buses had buses with specially shaped roofs for use on routes via Beverley North arch.

They also had versions that were designed to fit under the erstwhile railway bridge at Hornsea. The Hornsea Bridge ones would fit under the Beverley Bar but not the other way round.

 

[CN04NRJ]

With the alleged discontinuation of the B5TL could Lothian's E400 MMCs be considered 'bespoke'?

 

[lakeland844]

I don't think anyone has mentioned the Sunderland Corporation Strachan bodied single deck bodies built on Leyland Panther/AEC Swift and Daimler Roadliner from 1966 to 1969 - slanted pillars based on the 'Greyhound design' - specified by the corporation at the time - nothing else like them in the UK !

A handful of MCW bodies to similar design on Bristol RE chassis were built for Sunderland Corporation by MCW and saw further service with Burnley & Pendle during the 1980s