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Trolleybuses

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Caboose Class

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Many Forum members will remember them, some may even have ridden on them (either in the UK or abroad) and some members may not have even heard of them! But the trolleybus as a means of public transport is still alive and kicking - though sadly no longer in the the UK. There are still well over 2.000 trolleybus lines operational in the world today, the vast majority (68%) of them in the four countries of Russia, the Ukraine, Belarus and the Czech Republic - but they are also to be found in countries such as the USA, Italy, Austria, Sweden, Switzerland, Mexico, Morocco, Brazil and even in Saudi Arabia!

The last system in the UK to close (also, as it happens, one of the first to open) was Bradford when the last bus (no. 844) ran on the 26th March 1972. I was not there to see it but I do have very fond memories of riding trolleybuses as a child / schoolboy growing up in Bradford in the 1960's.

So 26th March 2022 is the 50th anniversary of the last trolleybus to run in this country and to celebrate the fact, the Trolleybus Museum in Sandtoft, near Wakefield Doncaster, is holding an Open Day on the weekend of 26th/27th March when a selection of their numerous trolleybuses will be running. Further details can be found at https://sandtoft.org/wp/visiting-us/open-days-2/

I hope some Forum members will be able to attend the event - and honour the "silent bus" of our transport heritage!!
 
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Ken H

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Many Forum members will remember them, some may even have ridden on them (either in the UK or abroad) and some members may not have even heard of them! But the trolleybus as a means of public transport is still alive and kicking - though sadly no longer in the the UK. There are still well over 2.000 trolleybus lines operational in the world today, the vast majority (68%) of them in the four countries of Russia, the Ukraine, Belarus and the Czech Republic - but they are also to be found in countries such as the USA, Italy, Austria, Sweden, Switzerland, Mexico, Morocco, Brazil and even in Saudi Arabia!

The last system in the UK to close (also, as it happens, one of the first to open) was Bradford when the last bus (no. 844) ran on the 26th March 1972. I was not there to see it but I do have very fond memories of riding trolleybuses as a child / schoolboy growing up in Bradford in the 1960's.

So 26th March 2022 is the 50th anniversary of the last trolleybus to run in this country and to celebrate the fact, the Trolleybus Museum in Sandtoft, near Wakefield, is holding an Open Day on the weekend of 26th/27th March when a selection of their numerous trolleybuses will be running. Further details can be found at https://sandtoft.org/wp/

I hope some Forum members will be able to attend the event - and honour the "silent bus" of our transport heritage!!
Me and dad had a day out riding trolleybuses in Bradford about 1970. Scrapping them was daft, especially in hilly bradford. I have put the date in my diary - thanks.
 

SLC001

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Went regularly to Sandtoft and have wonderful memories. Best photograph I have of junior mark II was at a gathering circa 1991. Sadly a long way to go now. First time I knew it as being based near Wakefield! Doncaster yes but Wakefield no. Over the last few years the annual Gathering always clashed with something on the domestic calendar like marriages of aforesaid MKII but I understand there have been developments since I last went.
Hope it goes well and is successful because I loved trolleybuses especially those in Huddersfield.
 

Robertj21a

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Many Forum members will remember them, some may even have ridden on them (either in the UK or abroad) and some members may not have even heard of them! But the trolleybus as a means of public transport is still alive and kicking - though sadly no longer in the the UK. There are still well over 2.000 trolleybus lines operational in the world today, the vast majority (68%) of them in the four countries of Russia, the Ukraine, Belarus and the Czech Republic - but they are also to be found in countries such as the USA, Italy, Austria, Sweden, Switzerland, Mexico, Morocco, Brazil and even in Saudi Arabia!

The last system in the UK to close (also, as it happens, one of the first to open) was Bradford when the last bus (no. 844) ran on the 26th March 1972. I was not there to see it but I do have very fond memories of riding trolleybuses as a child / schoolboy growing up in Bradford in the 1960's.

So 26th March 2022 is the 50th anniversary of the last trolleybus to run in this country and to celebrate the fact, the Trolleybus Museum in Sandtoft, near Wakefield Doncaster, is holding an Open Day on the weekend of 26th/27th March when a selection of their numerous trolleybuses will be running. Further details can be found at https://sandtoft.org/wp/

I hope some Forum members will be able to attend the event - and honour the "silent bus" of our transport heritage!!
Can't see anything obvious on the Sandtoft web page. Should there be an Events page ?
 

GusB

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BanburyBlue

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I've never seen one, but often wondered about trolleybuses. Assume used because cheaper than a traditional tram, no requirement for track etc.

How does the driver ensure they stay under the wires, especially round corners etc.

Where is the return power path?
 

Ken H

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I've never seen one, but often wondered about trolleybuses. Assume used because cheaper than a traditional tram, no requirement for track etc.

How does the driver ensure they stay under the wires, especially round corners etc.

Where is the return power path?
A lot cheaper than a tram. No digging up the road. But you need 2 wires above the track. And 'points' in the overhed where there was a split so the trolley went the right route.
The driver had to ensure he stayed on about the right path. But his pic shows that as the trolleypoles could pivot, there was a fair bit of manoevering room.
Overtaking of another trolleybus was more of an issue. Unless extra pairs of wires were provided.


(Link to pic of Bradford Trolleybuses at Sandtoft)

Its called a trolley because early trolleybuses had a little truck that ran under the wires.
 

Wyrleybart

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I've never seen one, but often wondered about trolleybuses. Assume used because cheaper than a traditional tram, no requirement for track etc.

How does the driver ensure they stay under the wires, especially round corners etc.

Where is the return power path?
My suggestion is a few days in Salzburg in Austria. You will be blown away by the system and wonder why the UK is decades and decades behind the forward thinking Europeans. The majority that I saw were bendis
 

Ken H

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My suggestion is a few days in Salzburg in Austria. You will be blown away by the system and wonder why the UK is decades and decades behind the forward thinking Europeans. The majority that I saw were bendis
We were forward thinking when we scrapped the trolley buses in Bradford in 1972. </sarc>
 

SLC001

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Trolleybuses were in many ways the natural successor to the trams as they could use the overhead infrastructure and power supplies without the need for track. Going back years the track in many urban areas was subject to subsidence which caused serious issues. Another advantage, overlooked now, was that many local authorities had their own power station and so the corporation could buy electricity cheaply. When the electricity supply industry was nationalised, it was no longer possible to buy cheap electricity and that gave another reason to abandon them. Buses were far more flexible (in the 1960s many towns road systems were being redeveloped), running costs far cheaper and I think Bradford only survived by buying equipment from authorities abandoning trolleybuses.

The art of driving a trolleybus properly took time to learn. Three braking systems, 5mph through junctions, knowing which junctions where you had to keep power on and where you had to coast, avoid traffic while at the same time stick under the wires etc. Going around gentle bends at pace could cause a de-wirement if you got it wrong and positioned the vehicle in the wrong place. Law of mechanics suggests that the outer boom could travel faster or slower than the other thereby causing your boom to come off. So the driver had to judge speed and his relative position under the wires otherwise it was get the boom out from under the bus (typically) and put the pole back on which was not easy in the dark. Imagine doing this in the smogs we used to have - sometimes a line of lights were installed alongside the overhead to assist the driver.

It was essential that the driver understood how a trolleybus worked from an electrical perspective which was different from a motorbus of course. Parallel / serial operation, resistor banks, notches and all that. Fascinating stuff when you delve into it.
 
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Ken H

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Trolleybuses were in many ways the natural successor to the trams as they could use the overhead infrastructure and power supplies without the need for track. Going back years the track in many urban areas was subject to subsidence which caused serious issues. Another advantage, overlooked now, was that many local authorities had their own power station and so the corporation could buy electricity cheaply. When the electricity supply industry was nationalised, it was no longer possible to buy cheap electricity and that gave another reason to abandon them. Buses were far more flexible (in the 1960s many towns road systems were being redeveloped), running costs far cheaper and I think Bradford only survived by buying equipment from authorities abandoning trolleybuses.
The art of driving a trolleybus properly took time to learn. Three braking systems, 5mph through junctions, knowing which junctions where you had to keep power on and where you had to coast, avoid traffic while at the same time stick under the wires etc. Going around gentle bends at pace could cause a de-wirement if you got it wrong and positioned the vehicle in the wrong place. Law of mechanics suggests that the outer boom could travel faster or slower than the other thereby causing your boom to come off. So the driver had to judge speed and his relative position under the wires otherwise it was get the boom out from under the bus (typically) and put the pole back on which was not easy in the dark. Imagine doing this in the smogs we used to have - sometimes a line of lights were installed alongside the overhead to assist the driver.
It was essential that the driver understood how a trolleybus worked from an electrical perspective which was different from a motorbus of course. Parallel / serial operation, resistor banks, notches and all that. Fascinating stuff when you delve into it.
was it the same licence and test as a motor bus?
 

trentside

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I’m currently reading Under the Wires of London by Charlie Wyatt who was a trolleybus conductor and driver at Finchley depot for London Transport. A really fascinating read and good detail on some aspects I’d never though about such as the junctions (Frogs) on the overheads. Worth a read for anyone, like me, who doesn’t know much about trolleybuses!
 

BanburyBlue

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A lot cheaper than a tram. No digging up the road. But you need 2 wires above the track. And 'points' in the overhed where there was a split so the trolley went the right route.
The driver had to ensure he stayed on about the right path. But his pic shows that as the trolleypoles could pivot, there was a fair bit of manoevering room.
Overtaking of another trolleybus was more of an issue. Unless extra pairs of wires were provided.


(Link to pic of Bradford Trolleybuses at Sandtoft)

Its called a trolley because early trolleybuses had a little truck that ran under the wires.
thanks - so wires hooked on in some way?
 

Ken H

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thanks - so wires hooked on in some way?
I think the poles were sprung upwards. There was a slot at the end of each pole with a carbon insert. That ran along the wire. It made a sort of 'zinng' noise as it went past. These things actually nipped along quite quick. Here is a link to a you tube movie of them in Bradford -

(I dont know if the movie was transferred to digital correctly so is a little speeded up...)
 

Caboose Class

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I think the poles were sprung upwards. There was a slot at the end of each pole with a carbon insert. That ran along the wire. It made a sort of 'zinng' noise as it went past. These things actually nipped along quite quick. Here is a link to a you tube movie of them in Bradford -

(I dont know if the movie was transferred to digital correctly so is a little speeded up...)
Wonderful memories.
 

Wyrleybart

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was it the same licence and test as a motor bus?
My mate's dad was a driver at Walsall Corporation which had trolleybuses until 1970. He was a motor bus driver but was apparently relegated to trolleybuses after a misdemeanor, although my mate didn't know what it was. From what he said the trolleybus was a step down from motorbuses, perhaps because there wasn't a gear stick and double de clutching to be done. "
 

edwin_m

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A lot cheaper than a tram. No digging up the road. But you need 2 wires above the track. And 'points' in the overhed where there was a split so the trolley went the right route.
The driver had to ensure he stayed on about the right path. But his pic shows that as the trolleypoles could pivot, there was a fair bit of manoevering room.
Overtaking of another trolleybus was more of an issue. Unless extra pairs of wires were provided.


(Link to pic of Bradford Trolleybuses at Sandtoft)

Its called a trolley because early trolleybuses had a little truck that ran under the wires.
Cheaper in capital terms but not necessarily to operate. A trolleybus can't be any bigger than a motorbus and due to the driving issues mentioned above a fleet of trolleybuses might actually be less effective at moving people than the same number of otherwise identical motorbuses. Whereas a tram can carry a lot more passengers in one vehicle, and being steel wheel its rolling resistance is much less so it uses less power per passenger.

So at high passenger numbers a tram may be better, and when numbers are low the cost of the wiring isn't justified, especially as diesel buses have improved and hydrogen and battery vehicles are moving towards being competitive. There may be a niche for trolleybus, particularly in very hilly cities, but in most other places that niche is so small as to be non-existent. Telling that the revival in light rail since the 1970s hasn't been matched by large numbers of new trolleybus routes.
 

Busaholic

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I’m currently reading Under the Wires of London by Charlie Wyatt who was a trolleybus conductor and driver at Finchley depot for London Transport. A really fascinating read and good detail on some aspects I’d never though about such as the junctions (Frogs) on the overheads. Worth a read for anyone, like me, who doesn’t know much about trolleybuses!
One of my absolute favourite London trolleybus books, and I must have at least two dozen, so I join you in recommending it.

Whisper it softly but trolleybuses in some places are beginning to go hybrid, in their case using reserve battery power to negotiate parts of a route where provision of overhead wires would be difficult or environmentally sensitive. Battery power was used in days of yore too, but usually only for limited manoeuvres, such as in and around depots.
 
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Marton

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I recollect them in Bradford and Saltaire.

I also remember the chaos caused when the pole came off the wires and the hook had to be brought out from under the bus. I suspected the maintenance was on the “just enough” principle.

The ride always seemed much smoother than motor buses. Much as it is between MKIV and Azuma.
 

Strathclyder

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In regards to Glasgow's short-lived trollybus network (from April 1949 to May 1967; the only British system to open after World War II IIRC), linked below is a excellent page on them, with dozens of high-quality images. The (in)famous Standees have a section to themselves here, as do the 34-and-a-half foot Burlingham single-decks for route 108; these vehicles required a dispensation from the Minstry of Transport to operate as they exceeded the then-existing legal limit for two-axle buses & trollybuses generally by 4-and-a-half feet:

 

dm1

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Cheaper in capital terms but not necessarily to operate. A trolleybus can't be any bigger than a motorbus and due to the driving issues mentioned above a fleet of trolleybuses might actually be less effective at moving people than the same number of otherwise identical motorbuses. Whereas a tram can carry a lot more passengers in one vehicle, and being steel wheel its rolling resistance is much less so it uses less power per passenger.

So at high passenger numbers a tram may be better, and when numbers are low the cost of the wiring isn't justified, especially as diesel buses have improved and hydrogen and battery vehicles are moving towards being competitive. There may be a niche for trolleybus, particularly in very hilly cities, but in most other places that niche is so small as to be non-existent. Telling that the revival in light rail since the 1970s hasn't been matched by large numbers of new trolleybus routes.

I think that's only partially true, even then only while diesel buses remain a viable option. When compared to other types of electrified bus, the trolleybus wins out in many situations, particularly the IMC variety, with the main advantage being the ability to operate an entire day without needing to stop for charging, be that in a depot or at stops, therefore making far better use of vehicles and reducing PVRs.

I've discussed that more extensively in other posts of mine here. I just think it's insane that there are none left in the UK and none on the horizon, and I think it's more to do with those in charge just not understanding how trolleybuses have developed since they disappeared in the UK and the situations where they might be useful, as well as deregulation making them difficult to arrange in a stable way. A private bus operator with almost no capital funding that doesn't know if they will still exist in 5 years won't invest in infrastructure that will take 10 years to pay itself back financially in reduced maintenance and fuel costs, as well as longer vehicle lifetime. Trams are shinier than trolleybuses, so are inherently more attractive to politicians. That doesn't always make them the better solution, even in the UK.

Trolleybuses can have signifcantly higher capacities than motor buses, particularly the biarticulated variety. Biarticulated motor buses are invariably underpowered and unreliable (see Hamburg), whereas bi-articulated trolleybuses generally have multiple powered axles and a very large capacity. This is why they are used extensively in Switzerland for example. The city of Luzern chose to invest in such a bi-articulated trolleybus network instead of trams, since it was so much cheaper but provided enough capacity for a city of its size. Of course they can't be used everywhere, but there are definitely places where they can and would be a good option.

The driving issues mentioned have also been mostly mitigated since trolleybuses were abolished in the UK. Dewirements are much, much rarer on modern systems due to improved trolley pole and wire design, which makes them much easier to drive and much more forgiving. Junctions and curves can be passed at exactly the same speed as on a motor bus, thanks to remotely operated switches, but most of them can be avoided in new systems entirely using IMC, since the buses can attach and detach from the wires at the push of a button, using a small battery (generally with a service range of up to 30km) to traverse complex junctions or up to 50% of the route if necessary. Even with such a battery, trolleybuses are much lighter than diesel buses and most other types of electric bus, meaning they cause much less damage to roads and also much less particulate emissions as a result.

You can try and make the argument about flexibility, but IMC makes that moot in most contexts, but even without it a bus will spend most of its life travelling along the same network, if not along the same route. Nobody seems to question whether the cost - both financial and environmental - of the additional flexibility of motor buses or other e-buses is really worth it. In many cases, at least in my view, it clearly isn't.
 

edwin_m

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I think that's only partially true, even then only while diesel buses remain a viable option. When compared to other types of electrified bus, the trolleybus wins out in many situations, particularly the IMC variety, with the main advantage being the ability to operate an entire day without needing to stop for charging, be that in a depot or at stops, therefore making far better use of vehicles and reducing PVRs.

I've discussed that more extensively in other posts of mine here. I just think it's insane that there are none left in the UK and none on the horizon, and I think it's more to do with those in charge just not understanding how trolleybuses have developed since they disappeared in the UK and the situations where they might be useful, as well as deregulation making them difficult to arrange in a stable way. A private bus operator with almost no capital funding that doesn't know if they will still exist in 5 years won't invest in infrastructure that will take 10 years to pay itself back financially in reduced maintenance and fuel costs, as well as longer vehicle lifetime. Trams are shinier than trolleybuses, so are inherently more attractive to politicians. That doesn't always make them the better solution, even in the UK.

Trolleybuses can have signifcantly higher capacities than motor buses, particularly the biarticulated variety. Biarticulated motor buses are invariably underpowered and unreliable (see Hamburg), whereas bi-articulated trolleybuses generally have multiple powered axles and a very large capacity. This is why they are used extensively in Switzerland for example. The city of Luzern chose to invest in such a bi-articulated trolleybus network instead of trams, since it was so much cheaper but provided enough capacity for a city of its size. Of course they can't be used everywhere, but there are definitely places where they can and would be a good option.

The driving issues mentioned have also been mostly mitigated since trolleybuses were abolished in the UK. Dewirements are much, much rarer on modern systems due to improved trolley pole and wire design, which makes them much easier to drive and much more forgiving. Junctions and curves can be passed at exactly the same speed as on a motor bus, thanks to remotely operated switches, but most of them can be avoided in new systems entirely using IMC, since the buses can attach and detach from the wires at the push of a button, using a small battery (generally with a service range of up to 30km) to traverse complex junctions or up to 50% of the route if necessary. Even with such a battery, trolleybuses are much lighter than diesel buses and most other types of electric bus, meaning they cause much less damage to roads and also much less particulate emissions as a result.

You can try and make the argument about flexibility, but IMC makes that moot in most contexts, but even without it a bus will spend most of its life travelling along the same network, if not along the same route. Nobody seems to question whether the cost - both financial and environmental - of the additional flexibility of motor buses or other e-buses is really worth it. In many cases, at least in my view, it clearly isn't.
That may all be so, but how many brand new trolleybus networks have appeared since the 1970s, compared to the number of tram networks? I agree the UK has unique issues, deregulation in particular, but other countries don't seem to be keen on them either.

From the above I exclude cities that have them already, many of which have indeed upgraded with new vehicles etc. That might be because they are amongst the few places where the trolleybus is the best solution, and/or because the capital investment is already made and it is sensible to take advantage of it.
 

dm1

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That may all be so, but how many brand new trolleybus networks have appeared since the 1970s, compared to the number of tram networks? I agree the UK has unique issues, deregulation in particular, but other countries don't seem to be keen on them either.

From the above I exclude cities that have them already, many of which have indeed upgraded with new vehicles etc. That might be because they are amongst the few places where the trolleybus is the best solution, and/or because the capital investment is already made and it is sensible to take advantage of it.
There have been some new systems that have opened, a cursory look through this article gives Marrakech in Morocco and a couple of cities in Turkey that have started new systems in the last decade or so.

Prague also opened a new trolleybus system in 2017, and significant expansion has occured since then and is still planned. Rome opened a new system in 2005, with some expansion planned. Berlin is currently planning a new trolleybus system, having performed extensive analysis of the best way to electrify their entire bus network (I am genuinely interested in what a similar analysis in London, looking at the entire bus network as a whole would show. I suspect it might also be IMC electrification).

These are all brand new systems. Some of the cities listed had trolleybuses previously, but abolished them entirely in a similar way to the UK. As I mentioned earlier, trolleybus lines and systems are much less shiny than tram systems, so we don't hear about them as much. But they still exist. We don't hear about every bus line that starts using opportunity charigng for e-buses either.
 

edwin_m

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There have been some new systems that have opened, a cursory look through this article gives Marrakech in Morocco and a couple of cities in Turkey that have started new systems in the last decade or so.

Prague also opened a new trolleybus system in 2017, and significant expansion has occured since then and is still planned. Rome opened a new system in 2005, with some expansion planned. Berlin is currently planning a new trolleybus system, having performed extensive analysis of the best way to electrify their entire bus network (I am genuinely interested in what a similar analysis in London, looking at the entire bus network as a whole would show. I suspect it might also be IMC electrification).

These are all brand new systems. Some of the cities listed had trolleybuses previously, but abolished them entirely in a similar way to the UK. As I mentioned earlier, trolleybus lines and systems are much less shiny than tram systems, so we don't hear about them as much. But they still exist. We don't hear about every bus line that starts using opportunity charigng for e-buses either.
That's a total of four in the last decade or so. The Wikipedia page for tram systems includes about 80 that have opened in the same period, including a couple of dozen in China that I'd never heard of. I think that illustrates my point that the combination of circumstances that makes the trolleybus the best choice is pretty rare.

Rome and Prague are very hilly cities so it may well be that trolleybus is suitable there as I suggested in a previous post. In Berlin it appears they are electrifying trunk bus routes but most of the mileage will be under battery power. So it's not really a traditional trolleybus, but nevertheless an interesting way of harnessing the best of both that may be applicable in other cities with a lot of bus operation.
 
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Ken H

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That's a total of four in the last decade or so. The Wikipedia page for tram systems includes about 80 that have opened in the same period, including a couple of dozen in China that I'd never heard of. I think that illustrates my point that the combination of circumstances that makes the trolleybus the best choice is pretty rare.

Rome and Prague are very hilly cities so it may well be that trolleybus is suitable there as I suggested in a previous post. In Berlin it appears they are electrifying trunk bus routes but most of the mileage will be under battery power. So it's not really a traditional trolleybus, but nevertheless an interesting way of harnessing the best of both that may be applicable in other cities with a lot of bus operation.
So ideal for northern cities/towns like leeds/bradford/Huddersfield then.
 
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