Tube BoJ Rules

[m00036]

I'm planning to buy a ticket from Farnborough to Bethnal Green (return, any permitted route including one cross-London journey) and wanted to check the BoJ rules.

As I understand it, you can break your journey on the tube but, in doing so, you'd be unable to get back onto the tube and can only rejoin your journey at the next National Rail station en route (in this case, London Liverpool Street on outbound and London Waterloo on return).

Does the reverse apply? I.e. can you walk from London Waterloo along the south bank and then join the tube halfway as your one cross-London journey? It seems to be fully in the rules but I imagine this is the sort of thing that barriers won't like, so no harm in asking

 

[yorkie]

You are unlikely to be allowed to enter at an intermediate London Underground station, unless it's one that is designated as a cross London interchange station (so you could walk along the Thames part way, if you carefully pick your station)

 

[Joe Paxton]

You are unlikely to be allowed to enter at an intermediate London Underground station, unless it's one that is designated as a cross London interchange station (so you could walk along the Thames part way, if you carefully pick your station)

The list of said stations is towards the top of this NRE page:
www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx

The blurb on that page about cross-London Underground transfers does include...

Tickets displaying this indicator are valid for travel between any two stations shown in the ‘Station List' (below) appropriate to the route of the through journey being made.
[...]

List of London Underground and DLR Stations between which single/return tickets valid for travel ‘via London' may be used - subject to route of the through journey being made
[...]

Which of course is subject to interpretation, but I'd suggest a basic rule-of-thumb which is just don't take the mickey!

From Waterloo you could say walk along the South Bank and then cross a bridge to get on the Circle line at Blackfriars, Cannon Street or Tower Hill, or walk to London Bridge for the Northern line (I'd emerge at Moorgate which is just around the corner from Liverpool Street). Or else just walk all the way! Lots of fascinating corners and alleyways in the Square Mile.

 

[87 027]

I have been denied entry into the tube system at an unlisted station in similar circumstances as outlined by the OP

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have been denied entry into the tube system at an unlisted station in similar circumstances as outlined by the OP

I've even had trouble with exit which is allowed.

I would say that if you don't enter and exit at one of the listed stations (whatever the official rights and wrongs) you will get hassle.

 

[Class800]

The hassle may be even worse from fellow passengers sadly. During engineering works a while back, there were no trains to Waterloo East and Charing Cross. Ticket acceptance was issued on the Underground from London Bridge, and accepted by staff no issue. Yet they hadn't activated it on the barriers (may be seen as too much hassle for a weekend, but would be good customer service), meaning had to be let through manually. And as there were few staff and hard to get attention, there was quite an issue with customers coming behind and being extremely rude and impatient and demanding I don't stand there and try to get staff attention if the ticket doesn't work the gate, but leave the station to those with 'correct' tickets, and then they deny they are even rude! Very aggressive fellow customers the big issue on Underground for me - though staff issues may also occur

 

[Snow1964]

The hassle may be even worse from fellow passengers sadly. During engineering works a while back, there were no trains to Waterloo East and Charing Cross. Ticket acceptance was issued on the Underground from London Bridge, and accepted by staff no issue. Yet they hadn't activated it on the barriers (may be seen as too much hassle for a weekend, but would be good customer service), meaning had to be let through manually. And as there were few staff and hard to get attention, there was quite an issue with customers coming behind and being extremely rude and impatient and demanding I don't stand there and try to get staff attention if the ticket doesn't work the gate, but leave the station to those with 'correct' tickets, and then they deny they are even rude! Very aggressive fellow customers the big issue on Underground for me - though staff issues may also occur

Are you saying ticket acceptance is advertised, but not put into effect, so barriers won’t accept them.

That sort of disjointed thinking is bound to lead to angry customers.

Surely a station supervisor has a responsibility to his barrier staff, so ensuring they don’t get complaints means suggests a a few minutes of gate data input would give them less manual hassle.

In my mind if ticket acceptance is requested, then not programming barriers is understandable, but if it moves to next stage as ticket acceptance advertised and in place, then it should be done.

 

[Class800]

Ticket acceptance was advertised. It was accepted no issue by staff. But not programmed in barriers. So staff had to let customers through manually. The behaviour of some fellow customers who had Oyster cards etc and were not on the diverted route was unacceptable and lacked basic courtesy

 

[district]

Surely a station supervisor has a responsibility to his barrier staff, so ensuring they don’t get complaints means suggests a a few minutes of gate data input would give them less manual hassle.

Not sure if you’re implying the Supervisor should program the barriers - I’m only assuming LUL is similar to TOCs but in which case ticket acceptance is not controllable on site.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ticket acceptance was advertised. It was accepted no issue by staff. But not programmed in barriers. So staff had to let customers through manually. The behaviour of some fellow customers who had Oyster cards etc and were not on the diverted route was unacceptable and lacked basic courtesy

I've never found a problem with this provided that on the ticket being rejected you immediately take the ticket and step aside to speak to staff, as if it doesn't work once it won't work the second or third time. The thing that winds commuters up is when someone tries again repeatedly, blocking that barrier for a while, or they wait for staff blocking the barrier while they wait.

This would be made easier if there was a prominent sign showing where the staff would be.

However if your ticket doesn't have + on it or you are at another station you might as well go straight to staff and avoid it as you already know it won't work the barrier.

 

[Haywain]

ensuring they don’t get complaints means suggests a a few minutes of gate data input would give them less manual hassle

Updating gate logic is a fairly specialised task and takes considerably more than a few minutes, even if there is capacity in the limited memory available to do it. I'm far from surprised that it doesn't happen.

 

[CyrusWuff]

It's even more "fun" down in London, where TfL are responsible for data tables for all of the gates that were upgraded as part of the "ITSO on Prestige" project.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I've never found a problem with this provided that on the ticket being rejected you immediately take the ticket and step aside to speak to staff, as if it doesn't work once it won't work the second or third time. The thing that winds commuters up is when someone tries again repeatedly, blocking that barrier for a while, or they wait for staff blocking the barrier while they wait.
[...]

This. If someone stands there blocking a gate with a ticket that evidently doesn't work, they are likely not to be met with enormous courtesy by others.

This is one of the issues that comes to mind as and when Aztec ('barcode') scanners for e-tickets might eventually be installed at LU stations. If that is something that is on the agenda, I wonder if it'd best be done by having very clearly marked gates either solely or primarily for that purpose, so others won't get held up. Throughput at busy LU gatelines is a genuine concern.

 

[Wolfie]

I've never found a problem with this provided that on the ticket being rejected you immediately take the ticket and step aside to speak to staff, as if it doesn't work once it won't work the second or third time. The thing that winds commuters up is when someone tries again repeatedly, blocking that barrier for a while, or they wait for staff blocking the barrier while they wait.

This would be made easier if there was a prominent sign showing where the staff would be.

However if your ticket doesn't have + on it or you are at another station you might as well go straight to staff and avoid it as you already know it won't work the barrier.

The problem comes when staff then ask you to try the ticket again even though it hasn't worked once.

 

[Class800]

I do find London a rude place these days. How I was brought up the person in front in a queue finishes his or her business, and then only then can the person behind move forward. The thread is maybe straying off Tube BoJ into various issues with Tube gatelines, although it is interesting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem comes when staff then ask you to try the ticket again even though it hasn't worked once.

Yes, true, though this will normally be at the wide gate at the end where the staff are, and most people in a hurry won't use those as they are slow to open.

I do find London a rude place these days. How I was brought up the person in front in a queue finishes his or her business, and then only then can the person behind move forward. The thread is maybe straying off Tube BoJ into various issues with Tube gatelines, although it is interesting.

London is and always has been busy and fast-moving. In London it is, and always was, considered rude to obstruct others in what they are doing; if you have a problem you need to move away from the flow of people to deal with it then return when ready to proceed.

Look at the escalators - in London you stand on the right only so others can move more quickly. On Merseyrail for example you can stand on both sides and you wait if someone is - and if you miss your train you wait for the next one.

It is what it is. If it's not to your taste, London isn't for you. Other British cities move slower (and are probably frustrating to a Londoner as a result).

 

[londonbridge]

How I was brought up the person in front in a queue finishes his or her business, and then only then can the person behind move forward.

That's also how I was bought up, only it seems to no longer apply. I work in supermarket conveinience and more often than not as soon as I finish scanning someone's items, the next customer will step up and put their basket on the counter whilst the person I'm serving is still trying to pack and/or pay. In one instance I finished scanning and the next woman walked straight up, plonked her basket down and asked for a bag. When I said "Sorry, just let me finish dealing with this gentleman please", she launched into a rant and complained to the manager that I was the one who was somehow being rude.

On the other side of the coin (pun not intended), I'm in the queue, the cashier hands change to the woman she's serving and calls out "next please". Woman is still at the counter putting the change in her purse, so I stand my ground. Cashier calls out 'next please' again, woman behind me says "you're next love". I say "I'll wait till she's finished and the till is clear if you don't mind". Woman said nothing but the look she gave me said it all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's also how I was bought up, only it seems to no longer apply. I work in supermarket conveinience andmore often than not as soon as I finish scanning someones items, the next customer will step up and put their basket on the counter whilst the person I'm serving is still trying to pack and/or pay. In one instance I finished scanniing and the next woman walked straight up, plonked her basket down and asked for a bag. When I said "Sorry, just let me finish dealing with this gentleman please", she launched into a rant and complained to the manager that I was the one who was somehow being rude.

As a basket is heavy, if the previous customer has vacated the place where it goes, then I think it's rude to expect people not to place it in that space. Attempting to start the next transaction I would agree.

Removal of the previous customer's basket from the space where it sits is the signal that the space is now available for the next basket.

However, that's not a great analogy with the gateline. A better one would be a customer's payment method failing, and instead of them offering a different one to resolve the issue quickly, insisting on telephoning their bank to resolve any issue, blocking the till while doing so. If you do need a chat with your bank to extend your overdraft, put your items back in the basket and rejoin the queue once ready to pay.

I also think it's quite rude to delay other customers while finding your payment method as if surprised that you might need it. Put your basket down on the till and prepare it ready to pay once the items have been scanned. This is the equivalent of getting to a busy gateline and stopping blocking it while you get your ticket out.

 

[plugwash]

Updating gate logic is a fairly specialised task and takes considerably more than a few minutes, even if there is capacity in the limited memory available to do it. I'm far from surprised that it doesn't happen.

I'm not surprised but I am disappointed.

Given that TFL are repeatedly claiming (rightly or wrongly) that tube gatelines have to be super-efficient to avoid crowd-control issues (and using this as an excuse to obstruct the transition to e-tickets), then surely they should realise the importance of updating those gates configuration during planned engineering works.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not surprised but I am disappointed.

Given that TFL are repeatedly claiming (rightly or wrongly) that tube gatelines have to be super-efficient to avoid crowd-control issues (and using this as an excuse to obstruct the transition to e-tickets), then surely they should realise the importance of updating those gates configuration during planned engineering works.

Only if there is a significant flow due to that diversion. If for instance they allow "route Kensington Olympia" tickets via Victoria and Euston, as they often do when there's engineering works, that is a tiny flow and it isn't a problem provided those passengers don't stand at the gateline trying their ticket multiple times once they have realised it doesn't work.

 

[londonbridge]

Not in my book. The sign says 'Please wait here until a till becomes free'. Regardless of whether there's a basket there or not, the presence of a customer in front of the till means the till is NOT free, and you should wait until the customer has gone. If the customer isn't using a basket because, say, they've just come in to buy twenty Marlboro (other tobacco brands are available), would you think it acceptable to hover right behind them and put your basket down whilst I'm still getting the cigs from the cupboard? Whatever happened to giving each other space?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not in my book. The sign says 'Please wait here until a till becomes free'. Regardless of whether there's a basket there or not, the presence of a customer in front of the till means the till is NOT free, and you should wait until the customer has gone. If the customer isn't using a basket because, say, they've just come in to buy tenty Marlboro (other tobacco brands are available), would you think it acceptable to hover right behind them and put your basket down whilst I'm still getting the cigs from the cupboard?

I don't see any problem with that in normal circumstances at all. Your basket might be heavy, there is an empty space to place it on the till. No problem.

Whatever happened to giving each other space?

For COVID perhaps.

In any other situation, "personal space" is not something you can really experience in London. Again, if you want somewhere that isn't crowded and fast-moving, London is not the place for you.

 

[londonbridge]

I don't see any problem with that in normal circumstances at all. Your basket might be heavy, there is an empty space to place it on the till. No problem.



For COVID perhaps.

In any other situation, "personal space" is not something you can really experience in London. Again, if you want somewhere that isn't crowded and fast-moving, London is not the place for you.

You don't have to stand there holding the basket you know, you can put it on the floor for a moment. Plus I've lived in London all my life and people always used to give each other space and respect each other's privacy at the till when I was younger.

 

[Wolfie]

You don't have to stand there holding the basket you know, you can put it on the floor for a moment. Plus I've lived in London all my life and people always used to give each other space and respect each other's privacy at the till when I was younger.

The shops used to close earlier, often Saturday was a half day too, and Sunday opening was unheard of. Things have changed, they always have and they always will. The population of London has gone up significantly too and not all of that new population were brought up the way that you were.

Should people have some space? Of course. Is that large amounts of space at their complete convenience? Hell no.

 

[AM9]

I do find London a rude place these days. How I was brought up the person in front in a queue finishes his or her business, and then only then can the person behind move forward. The thread is maybe straying off Tube BoJ into various issues with Tube gatelines, although it is interesting.

London is no worse than many other 'world cities' in that respect. Try Hong Kong, New York or even Paris. Travelling around a seriously large and busy city as a visitor is something that tourists and any others who aren't used to the ways of the population there need to be aware of and just try to go with the flow. They just want to go about on their business.
On the other hand, if you do innocently get in the way, don't get upset at what they say, - they will have forgotten about it 3 steps later so you might as well. There's no point in harbouring the issue. I prefer it to the occasional brusqueness you can get when visiting a quiet provincial town where some object to you even being in 'their' town at all.

 

[londonbridge]

@Wolfie I know things change over time obviously, sadly not always for the better. I do have a couple of theories but I’m not going to go there in order to avoid dragging the thread even further off topic and ending up with it closed.