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Tyneside 3rd rail

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Anon Mouse

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I am interested in finding pictures of the various 3rd rail EMU's that were used on Tyneside, especially the 2 EPB's. Does anyone know of any sites containing such shots? The odd ones you find tend to be the same shots!

Also is anyone aware of any publications on the electric network?

Cheers!
 
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sprinterguy

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Regarding publications that detail the old Tyneside electric network, I have a fairly old (Ian Allan, 1980) book called "The Railway Carriage Album" that details, quite briefly admittedly, the pre-nationalisation rolling stock of the Tyneside electric network, including several exterior and one interior shot of the original 1904 NER North Tyneside electric cars that launched the electric service, the later 1920 NER electric cars that, following a refurbishment, later found work on the South Tyneside electric services when they were electrified in 1937 and finally the Gresley-designed articulated railcar sets built to replace the 1904 stock in 1937. The book is surely long out of print by now, but could probably be bought for a song if any were to be found online.

Another, more recent, book, "The Railways of South Shields" by Neil Sinclair and Ian Carr, provides a more detailed potted history of the Tyneside electric system within it's body of text, as well as a couple of pictures of the later 2-EPBs in addition to a few of the older electric stock.
 

Anon Mouse

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cheers for that I'll have a poke around online. Stuff on the 3rd rail network seems to be like gold dust and hardly owt online. I guess folk were too busy taking photo's of kettles to care! :)
 

JohnCarlson

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I am interested in finding pictures of the various 3rd rail EMU's that were used on Tyneside, especially the 2 EPB's. Does anyone know of any sites containing such shots? The odd ones you find tend to be the same shots!

Also is anyone aware of any publications on the electric network?

Cheers!


Are you the guy I spoke to about a year ago in Newcastle and went for a burger with in the Forth Hotel?
 

Class172

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I never realised that their used to be 3rd rail in this area. When was it abolished and was it similar to the southern system (ie 750V)?
 

John55

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I never realised that their used to be 3rd rail in this area. When was it abolished and was it similar to the southern system (ie 750V)?

You need to brush up on your Railway History. The Southern (LSWR) system was significantly after the North Eastern Railway had their electrified railway up and running so the correct way to put it was the Southern system was similar to the NER system.
 

Class172

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Sorry but my historical railway knowledge does not really stretch beyond the western and midland region
 

Anon Mouse

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Are you the guy I spoke to about a year ago in Newcastle and went for a burger with in the Forth Hotel?

I'm afraid not!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I never realised that their used to be 3rd rail in this area. When was it abolished and was it similar to the southern system (ie 750V)?

It was more or less along the rout of whats now the Metro, plus a branchline between Percy Main and Byker serving the shipyards. It was de-electrified in the 1960's. The LNER North Tyneside sets scrapped and the South Tyneside EPB's were sent to the Southern. I'm facsinated by it all!
 

Darandio

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You need to brush up on your Railway History. The Southern (LSWR) system was significantly after the North Eastern Railway had their electrified railway up and running so the correct way to put it was the Southern system was similar to the NER system.

Given the question by Class172, does it actually matter who was first? Absolutely no need for a lecture.

They were only asking if it was similar.

Which in response to the voltage question, I believe Tyneside was 600v.
 

Anon Mouse

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Which in response to the voltage question, I believe Tyneside was 600v.

Hmm interesting, I assumed (probably due to the fact that a fleet of EPB's were built for South Tyneside) that it was the same voltage as the Southern

Regardless of what came first or what the voltage was I feel BR made a very short-sighted decision. I always wonder what would have happened if it stayed 3rd rail and if the metro never happened....could we of ended up with say, 507's & 508's or would we of had a series of cast offs?
 

swt_passenger

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Hmm interesting, I assumed (probably due to the fact that a fleet of EPB's were built for South Tyneside) that it was the same voltage as the Southern

Some of the former Southern Region (SR) in the inner London suburban area is still 660V, and at the time the EPB were on order there was much more 600V than now. There is a project still underway to lift the nominal voltage to 750 V all over the network, but some areas especially those fed by NR that involve LU stock running, such as the East Putney to Wimbledon and the Richmond - Gunnersbury sections, aren't planned to be completed until 2016, when the S stock has fully taken over.

Taking the SR as a whole, 750V should be seen as purely a nominal value.

By the way, you should also be interested in this link to a 1955 Railway Magazine article about the Tyneside EPB order, held on the SEMG website's archive section:

http://www.semgonline.com/RlyMag/TwoCarElectricUnits.pdf

The index is here, there are many articles about historical SR stuff:

http://www.semgonline.com/RlyMag/index.html
 
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ainsworth74

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Hmm interesting, I assumed (probably due to the fact that a fleet of EPB's were built for South Tyneside) that it was the same voltage as the Southern

I believe they were able to fudge it when the EPB's moved south. 600v is quite close to 750v and electrical systems back then weren't quite as sensitive as they are these days to voltage changes. Indeed I imagine the EPBs probably got a performance boost out of it!
 

LE Greys

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Hmm interesting, I assumed (probably due to the fact that a fleet of EPB's were built for South Tyneside) that it was the same voltage as the Southern

Regardless of what came first or what the voltage was I feel BR made a very short-sighted decision. I always wonder what would have happened if it stayed 3rd rail and if the metro never happened....could we of ended up with say, 507's & 508's or would we of had a series of cast offs?

Pure speculation here, but we would have had 509s which would have been practically identical (well, unless BR decided to sell the lot off as an electrified going concern in the 1980s). We would also still have 509s, probably operated by a separate franchise, somewhat like Merseyrail. I'm not sure if they would have cut the new tunnel sections, but a line to the airport is a distinct possibility.
 

John55

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Given the question by Class172, does it actually matter who was first? Absolutely no need for a lecture.

They were only asking if it was similar.

Which in response to the voltage question, I believe Tyneside was 600v.

I was merely putting the answer in context without going into chapter and verse. It is surprising to me that so little seems to be known of the great pioneering work of the NER in the field of railway electrification in this country.

The voltage of the supply can be very misleading as the quoted figure is usually some average figure at the sub-station bus bar. Under different conditions of load this may vary up or down by well over a 100Vs.

As far as I am aware all the early 20th century 3rd rail schemes used voltages in the 600 - 660V range. Limited probably by equipment supply availability or the requirement to interwork with other railways (especially what is now LU).
 

LE Greys

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I was merely putting the answer in context without going into chapter and verse. It is surprising to me that so little seems to be known of the great pioneering work of the NER in the field of railway electrification in this country.

The voltage of the supply can be very misleading as the quoted figure is usually some average figure at the sub-station bus bar. Under different conditions of load this may vary up or down by well over a 100Vs.

As far as I am aware all the early 20th century 3rd rail schemes used voltages in the 600 - 660V range. Limited probably by equipment supply availability or the requirement to interwork with other railways (especially what is now LU).

The NER was, of course, one of the first companies to look into overhead electrification in this country as well. AIUI, they were behind the LB&SC, but ahead of pretty much everyone else. As for the third rail supply issue, that sounds like a conversion issue based on multiples of standard mains voltages rather than any other factor (perhaps for convenience as much as anything - after all, they would have depended on external suppliers for electrical equipment) and was increased gradually on the Southern as various new generations of stock came along. Most likely, it would have standardised at 750V by now.

http://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/ef1eb1.shtml
 

Anon Mouse

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Some of the former Southern Region (SR) in the inner London suburban area is still 660V, and at the time the EPB were on order there was much more 600V than now. There is a project still underway to lift the nominal voltage to 750 V all over the network, but some areas especially those fed by NR that involve LU stock running, such as the East Putney to Wimbledon and the Richmond - Gunnersbury sections, aren't planned to be completed until 2016, when the S stock has fully taken over.

Taking the SR as a whole, 750V should be seen as purely a nominal value.

By the way, you should also be interested in this link to a 1955 Railway Magazine article about the Tyneside EPB order, held on the SEMG website's archive section:

http://www.semgonline.com/RlyMag/TwoCarElectricUnits.pdf

The index is here, there are many articles about historical SR stuff:

http://www.semgonline.com/RlyMag/index.html

THanks very much, thats really interesting....especially the bit about the 1st class compartment (who on earth would use that on a 15min journey on Tyneside?) and the larger van (Read elsewhere that it was to cater for fishboxes and prams). Some good stuff on that website too!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Pure speculation here, but we would have had 509s which would have been practically identical (well, unless BR decided to sell the lot off as an electrified going concern in the 1980s). We would also still have 509s, probably operated by a separate franchise, somewhat like Merseyrail. I'm not sure if they would have cut the new tunnel sections, but a line to the airport is a distinct possibility.

Of course I was assuming that an underground network in Newcastle wouls not have needed to have been built. Obviously the PTE would have continuied to subsidise the network on Tyneside so its possible that an Airport link may of been built. Could we of seen 3rd rail extending to Sunderland? Middlesbrough? When the Metrocentre was built could 3rd rail of been extended there? Who knows....Very short sighted of BR to have ripped up the 3rd rail, but maybe the alternative was closure....
 

Peter Mugridge

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Pure speculation here, but we would have had 509s which would have been practically identical (well, unless BR decided to sell the lot off as an electrified going concern in the 1980s). We would also still have 509s, probably operated by a separate franchise, somewhat like Merseyrail. I'm not sure if they would have cut the new tunnel sections, but a line to the airport is a distinct possibility.

Is that why there was a gap in the sequence at class 509?

The 455s were originally going to be class 510 ( and some 455/8s actually had this on internal stickers for a while ). So was class 509 in fact reserved for a North East batch of 3rd rail PEP stock before the system was turned into a Metro?
 

DXMachina

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Is that why there was a gap in the sequence at class 509?

The 455s were originally going to be class 510 ( and some 455/8s actually had this on internal stickers for a while ). So was class 509 in fact reserved for a North East batch of 3rd rail PEP stock before the system was turned into a Metro?

Timing doesnt work - there was nearly a decade between the closing of NER 3rd rail and the PEP program
 

142094

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Good book to have a look at is Suburban Railways of Tyneside, there is one on eBay at the minute (and available elsewhere).
 

LE Greys

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Is that why there was a gap in the sequence at class 509?

The 455s were originally going to be class 510 ( and some 455/8s actually had this on internal stickers for a while ). So was class 509 in fact reserved for a North East batch of 3rd rail PEP stock before the system was turned into a Metro?

I always thought 509s were a MkII-based REP replacement that never happened. Might have been good, though. Imagine a 6-car MkII formation with a DBSO at either end and REP motors underneath it.
 

yorksrob

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You need to brush up on your Railway History. The Southern (LSWR) system was significantly after the North Eastern Railway had their electrified railway up and running so the correct way to put it was the Southern system was similar to the NER system.

But by the same token, Eastern EPB's followed Southern EPB's.
 

142094

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At the time I wouldn't have thought that BR would have been keen to replace the stock with newer 3rd rail units, lot of investment for what was seen as a small return. I'm sure at one point the whole Coast loop was proposed for closure under Beeching, but only the Riverside Branch went.
 

Peter Mugridge

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I always thought 509s were a MkII-based REP replacement that never happened. Might have been good, though. Imagine a 6-car MkII formation with a DBSO at either end and REP motors underneath it.

Wouldn't that have had a 42x class number though?
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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
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Timing doesnt work - there was nearly a decade between the closing of NER 3rd rail and the PEP program

Unless they were planning originally to re-instate 3rd rail then changed the plan to the Metro?
 
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L&Y Robert

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At the time I wouldn't have thought that BR would have been keen to replace the stock with newer 3rd rail units, lot of investment for what was seen as a small return. I'm sure at one point the whole Coast loop was proposed for closure under Beeching, but only the Riverside Branch went.

I once travelled back to my flat in Newcastle (Wesgate Road) from Tynemouth (girl friend's) via the Riverside Branch for a change. About half way back, I saw a mouse emerge from behind the feet of the woman sitting diagonally opposite. It ran across the floor, the woman, discomforted by my attention to her feet, looked down and saw it. "Oh! M.G" she shrieked, and I actually saw a grown woman climb onto a seat because of a mouse! I shooed it away, she was grateful, we got into Manors and she got off. When we arrived at Newcsatle Central I said told the guard that his train had a mouse. "Oh, that's real champion" he said.

I don't think anyone has mentioned the Quayside Branch, rermarkable for two reasons: first that it followed a semi-circular route mostly in a tunnel from the sidings alongside the main line to the quay below and down-stream of Tyne Bridge, and second, it was electrified by overherad "Tram wire" and operated by that "Crocodile" loco they have in the mueum at York. I have seen that loco coupled to an 060 steam tank engine double-head a train off the quayside and into the tunnel. On another occasion a train of wagons, brake van to the fore, ran away down the tunnel, into the shunting yard at the bottom, and the brake van climbed vertically up a warehouse wall by the force of the train behind it! I have the newspaper cutting photograph still!
 
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