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Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

Jordan Adam

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I'm sure a thread like this was created before, however i had a look and can no longer find it.

The purpose of this thread is to post news and updates regarding bus manufacturers based in the UK such as ADL, Optare and Wright. Builders like Mellor Coachcraft who do the minibus van bodies are included too.

...

It would appear Plaxton have dropped the Cheetah XL from their range, it has now been removed from their website and i don't believe any have been built recently.
 
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cactustwirly

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Anyone know why they all make such crappy buses, the difference in quality to something like a MAN Lions City, or a Scania Omnicity is like night and day!
 

DaveLondon

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Cactuswirly - Not sure what the basis of this rather generalised comment is. It is very difficult to judge "quality" in such a generalised way. I assume you have no specialist expertise in this area. David
 

class387

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Anyone know why they all make such crappy buses, the difference in quality to something like a MAN Lions City, or a Scania Omnicity is like night and day!
The Lions City is great, but the Omnictiys that Uno just got rid of rattled far, far more than Darts of the same age. Felt like they had no suspension.
 

37114

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Hmm, how many ADLs were sold in comparison to MANs in the UK last year? If MANs were that good how come Stagecoach binned them due to a load of Engine troubles? Scania may be doing better but they are expensive to buy and the parts are pricey, and again Stagecoach have switched away from them.
 

Non Multi

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Anyone know why they all make such crappy buses, the difference in quality to something like a MAN Lions City, or a Scania Omnicity is like night and day!
I thought the UK market generally buys lightweight, economical to run midi buses, not traditional full-size integrals. I quite like the current ADL Enviro200 and the Optare Solo SR from a passenger point of view. Much improved from the old Dart SLF and original Solo which were both super rattly inside. The Mellor Coachcraft breadvans are also way better than the Freight Rover Dormobiles and Renault S75s of the late 1980's.
 

cactustwirly

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Hmm, how many ADLs were sold in comparison to MANs in the UK last year? If MANs were that good how come Stagecoach binned them due to a load of Engine troubles? Scania may be doing better but they are expensive to buy and the parts are pricey, and again Stagecoach have switched away from them.

Because Stagecoach are stupid, and an awful bus company.
Look across Europe, from Austria, to Italy to Sweden, almost every city has MAN Lions City, because they are high quality and reliable buses.

UK buses, are actually quite bad when compared to the rest of Europe IMO

ADLs in particular are the reason why I hate bus travel in the UK, as one will almost certainly turn up, it's horribly uncomfortable and it slowly rattles itself around town, the suspension is rock hard so you really feel every bump in the road.
All in all a miserable experience, and one which I'll only do if I absolutely have to. In fact I'll be getting a car soon, which is a lot better than a bus!

The Lions City is a much more pleasant experience that I don't mind so much, the seats are comfortable, the suspension is nice and soft, so it's built a lot better, so it doesn't rattle so much, so you waft about in relative comfort.
 
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Jordan Adam

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Because Stagecoach are stupid, and an awful bus company.
Look across Europe, from Austria, to Italy to Sweden, almost every city has MAN Lions City, because they are high quality and reliable buses.

UK buses, are actually quite bad when compared to the rest of Europe IMO

From what i'm told MAN's build quality is very hit and miss, especially when it comes to bodies, some can be built well while others are on part and/or worse than a Streetlite.

Out of interest have MAN managed to produce a engine that can run for more than 15 minutes without blowing something yet?
 

GusB

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It would appear Plaxton have dropped the Cheetah XL from their range, it has now been removed from their website and i don't believe any have been built recently.

Seems odd, according to http://www.buslistsontheweb.co.uk , York Pullman took one in June along with other companies like Acklams in the previous months.
I would assume these would have come from dealer stock. The date of registration doesn't necessarily reflect when the vehicle was actually built.

There a couple of other companies building bodywork on the Mercedes Atego chassis - Noone, UNVI etc. Is that market big enough?
 

Jordan Adam

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Seems odd, according to http://www.buslistsontheweb.co.uk , York Pullman took one in June along with other companies like Acklams in the previous months.
I would assume these would have come from dealer stock. The date of registration doesn't necessarily reflect when the vehicle was actually built.

There a couple of other companies building bodywork on the Mercedes Atego chassis - Noone, UNVI etc. Is that market big enough?

GusB is right.

The body numbers give it away. All the 2019 registered examples have F/G series numbers which means they were built in the 2016/17 and 2017/18 financial periods.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Because Stagecoach are stupid, and an awful bus company.
Look across Europe, from Austria, to Italy to Sweden, almost every city has MAN Lions City, because they are high quality and reliable buses.

UK buses, are actually quite bad when compared to the rest of Europe IMO

ADLs in particular are the reason why I hate bus travel in the UK, as one will almost certainly turn up, it's horribly uncomfortable and it slowly rattles itself around town, the suspension is rock hard so you really feel every bump in the road.
All in all a miserable experience, and one which I'll only do if I absolutely have to. In fact I'll be getting a car soon, which is a lot better than a bus!

The Lions City is a much more pleasant experience that I don't mind so much, the seats are comfortable, the suspension is nice and soft, so it's built a lot better, so it doesn't rattle so much, so you waft about in relative comfort.

Stagecoach aren't stupid - you don't create a business like that by being stupid. Also, they are not awful - I don't know which is your local OpCo but they are generally good across the country. Yes, their vehicles are generally a bit on the basic side of things but here's the rub...

These high class vehicles (Citaros etc) cost a lot more - both in terms of purchase price, and on an ongoing basis whether that is in terms of parts, and then fuel as bonded glazing and air con plus heavier ULW means that they are returning much lower MPG. Now who pays for that??

  • The passenger in increased fares - we are already seeing the challenge on fares levels so will people pay a premium?
  • The operator - given that most operators are already fighting to retain routes and margins?
  • The government - through reinstating the full BSOG and/or additional funding...at a time when public spending is at its' lowest
I remember a particular journey last year on a standard Stagecoach e200 from Chipping Norton to Banbury. It was a miserable wet day, condensation on the windows etc. It's a commercial route in rural Oxfordshire (a county that slashed subsidised services) that probably washes its face and a bit more, contributing to the depot overhead. Yes, it would be lovely to have some European citybus but that would simply be uneconomic.
 

cactustwirly

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Stagecoach aren't stupid - you don't create a business like that by being stupid. Also, they are not awful - I don't know which is your local OpCo but they are generally good across the country. Yes, their vehicles are generally a bit on the basic side of things but here's the rub...

These high class vehicles (Citaros etc) cost a lot more - both in terms of purchase price, and on an ongoing basis whether that is in terms of parts, and then fuel as bonded glazing and air con plus heavier ULW means that they are returning much lower MPG. Now who pays for that??

  • The passenger in increased fares - we are already seeing the challenge on fares levels so will people pay a premium?
  • The operator - given that most operators are already fighting to retain routes and margins?
  • The government - through reinstating the full BSOG and/or additional funding...at a time when public spending is at its' lowest
I remember a particular journey last year on a standard Stagecoach e200 from Chipping Norton to Banbury. It was a miserable wet day, condensation on the windows etc. It's a commercial route in rural Oxfordshire (a county that slashed subsidised services) that probably washes its face and a bit more, contributing to the depot overhead. Yes, it would be lovely to have some European citybus but that would simply be uneconomic.

My last Stagecoach journey was very underwhelming, it was a brand new bus, but it was really slow and very uncomfortable.
My local OpCo, is Courtney/Reading buses.
Courney are absolutely useless, the bus often runs 20 minutes late, if it actually runs.
The fares are an absolute rip off, as such the bus gets used as a complete last resort.
I think I'd rather cycle tbh.
 

Gingerbus1991

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scrounging as much money as possible out of as much as possible across the business is what Ive known Stagecoach to do.

I had previously driven Stagecoach Fifes man chassis buses when they were used on the 19 but they were certainly not maintained nor fixed correctly or promptly, good comfortable chassis, suspension & smooth brakes though.

The light weight guff is good for economy but poor on comfort, and there usually much noisier.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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scrounging as much money as possible out of as much as possible across the business is what Ive known Stagecoach to do.

I had previously driven Stagecoach Fifes man chassis buses when they were used on the 19 but they were certainly not maintained nor fixed correctly or promptly, good comfortable chassis, suspension & smooth brakes though.

The light weight guff is good for economy but poor on comfort, and there usually much noisier.
Not disputing heavyweight chassis are more comfortable. Been on buses across Europe but ultimately someone has to pay for the higher running costs.
 

Mwanesh

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I dont get this Stagecoach are stupid thing. They bought hundreds of MAN E300s but most of the time they were in the workshop broken down. Then they tried Neoplans on Megabus which did not last long.
 

cactustwirly

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I dont get this Stagecoach are stupid thing. They bought hundreds of MAN E300s but most of the time they were in the workshop broken down. Then they tried Neoplans on Megabus which did not last long.

Maybe it's Stagecoach's dodgy maintenance.
If MANs are so unreliable, why are they the most popular bus in Europe?
 

37114

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Maybe it's Stagecoach's dodgy maintenance.
If MANs are so unreliable, why are they the most popular bus in Europe?
It will be a combination of dealer back up, price, full life operating costs. My experience from an HGV side of MAN s is they can be hit and miss with engine quality, some models are good some aren't so presume whatever chassis they sold over here had a poor engine, it is widely quoted that it was Engine problems that caused Stagecoach to look elsewhere.

The other point in our domestic manufacturers favour is the fact that we seem to have some quirky demands, namely double decker, right hand drive etc. To MAN and Mercedes the UK is a rounding error in the potential sales opportunity, add in the complexity of the market and you are never going to push hard.

Personally I think that it is great that the UK still has a domestic bus building industry and until recently all 3 major players were in UK ownership and with some good export orders and should be celebrated rather than knocked.
 

Mwanesh

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Maybe it's Stagecoach's dodgy maintenance.
If MANs are so unreliable, why are they the most popular bus in Europe?
When they were new and still under warranty they were even worse.We had them in our depot .When they repowered them with Cummins engines they were better. Ask yourself which large operator has MAN in their fleets in the UK .Their support is also not up to standard.
 

Swanny200

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Good thread to open Jordan, there was news that ADL were going to release a new product but it was quickly removed off their site (to do with Lothian buses IIRC) and nothing to do with the express coaches they have just finished for them either. I know Wright need to keep orders flowing due to them opening another site so hopefully they should be due some new products soon rather than just an evolution on their existing and somewhat older designs.
 

37114

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Good thread to open Jordan, there was news that ADL were going to release a new product but it was quickly removed off their site (to do with Lothian buses IIRC) and nothing to do with the express coaches they have just finished for them either. I know Wright need to keep orders flowing due to them opening another site so hopefully they should be due some new products soon rather than just an evolution on their existing and somewhat older designs.

Arguably there is over supply in the UK market between the 3 UK suppliers. ADL seem to be aggressively going for market share what with offering more "body on others chassis" to get them in with Lothian amongst others and have been doing well getting stronger representation in fleets where they might have been second or third choice. Optare have had a couple of good export orders to ofset their reduction in the UK domestic market and have a couple of Electric orders for the double decker. Wright seem vulnerable with a number of double deck body buyers switching to ADL and MCV, while the streetlites seem to get mixed reviews and have hardly troubled the E200 recently.
 

Jordan Adam

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Arguably there is over supply in the UK market between the 3 UK suppliers. ADL seem to be aggressively going for market share what with offering more "body on others chassis" to get them in with Lothian amongst others and have been doing well getting stronger representation in fleets where they might have been second or third choice. Optare have had a couple of good export orders to ofset their reduction in the UK domestic market and have a couple of Electric orders for the double decker. Wright seem vulnerable with a number of double deck body buyers switching to ADL and MCV, while the streetlites seem to get mixed reviews and have hardly troubled the E200 recently.

Very interesting post which summarises things well. I mean downfall for Wright has no doubt been build quality, ADL are hardly perfect in this regard but they are improving year on year. Just compare a 16 plate E400MMC when new and a 19 plate one when new and the improvement is quite noticeable. That being said i don't actually think ADL have been that much of a risk to Wright, It's MCV who have.

Optare's product range is just outdated, the Metrodecker has became a laughing stock with it's inability to make any sales. Even now 7 years since original concept launch they're yet to actually deliver any production models. Perhaps someone needs to teach them that fixed nonadjustable dashboards were the thing in 1999, but in 2019 nobody wants them!

ADL will pretty much build anything provided they're promised a decent sized of order.
 

Jordan Adam

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I'm not even sure MAN builds something that big.

They do.

33218580303_bb4c020f01_b.jpg


They have also built some tri-axle deckers fro Berlin in the past.

man-lions-city-dd-bvg-57898.jpg
 

duncombec

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Look across Europe, from Austria, to Italy to Sweden, almost every city has MAN Lions City, because they are high quality and reliable buses.

The Lions City is a much more pleasant experience that I don't mind so much, the seats are comfortable, the suspension is nice and soft, so it's built a lot better, so it doesn't rattle so much, so you waft about in relative comfort.

Really? I didn't see any in Rome. Have RATP suddenly bought a load for Paris? Or STIB for Brussels? Perhaps the cities you have visited, but that is not even close to almost every city. And as for comfortable, that depends on the interior specifications. I've been on some operated by DB's subsidiary Autokraft (in pre-red days) that were anything but comfortable.

If MANs are so unreliable, why are they the most popular bus in Europe?

Based on what facts? I think Mercedes may question that statement! Let alone Irisbus, Solaris, Volvo, etc.

Ask yourself which large operator has MAN in their fleets in the UK .Their support is also not up to standard.

I have long associated MAN with only really being interested in the LHD market in recent years. What's more, I seem to recall that one of the reasons Berlin went to a different manufacturer for MAN replacement was related to maintenance support - as well as being fuel guzzlers and the occasional propensity to catch fire.
 

Speedbird96

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Good thread to open Jordan, certainly going to be interesting the next couple of months in regards to new buses being produced. We have Metroline introducing 37 Enviro400EV for the 43. Eyebrows definitely raised in regards to new single decker to be produced by ADL.

Anyone know why they all make such crappy buses, the difference in quality to something like a MAN Lions City, or a Scania Omnicity is like night and day!

Suggesting that a Scania OmniCity is high quality is setting a very low bar; whilst have no issues with Scania's which are certainly reliable, the build quality is very poor and the suspension is hard. I can definitely think of better full-size single deckers.

Although have never rode an MAN Lions City, having experienced their offerings in the UK in the form of ALX300s, Enviro300s, MCV Evolutions and the rare Wright Meridian, they are not up to snuff.

Maybe it's Stagecoach's dodgy maintenance.
If MANs are so unreliable, why are they the most popular bus in Europe?

Except it isn't just Stagecoach that have had problems, MAN's are generally well known for having a poor reputation in the UK, often overheating and breaking down.

Nottingham City Transport operated 20 Optare Versas with MAN engines in 2008, but were having constant problems with engines overheating that they had to add extra cooling vents. There were plans to re-engine the Versas with Cummins engines, but were instead withdrawn after 5 years in 2013 and replaced by existing Cummins powered Optare Solo SRs and long-wheelbase ADL Enviro200s.

Arguably there is over supply in the UK market between the 3 UK suppliers. ADL seem to be aggressively going for market share what with offering more "body on others chassis" to get them in with Lothian amongst others and have been doing well getting stronger representation in fleets where they might have been second or third choice. Optare have had a couple of good export orders to ofset their reduction in the UK domestic market and have a couple of Electric orders for the double decker. Wright seem vulnerable with a number of double deck body buyers switching to ADL and MCV, while the streetlites seem to get mixed reviews and have hardly troubled the E200 recently.

ADL has the advantage of being the largest UK bus manufacturer, and have been able to diversify their offerings. What is more surprising is operators like Lothian Buses and Brighton & Hove have transferred their orders over to ADL as they were long-standing Wright customers so agree they are vulnerable to changing market conditions.
 

cnjb8

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Good thread to open Jordan, certainly going to be interesting the next couple of months in regards to new buses being produced. We have Metroline introducing 37 Enviro400EV for the 43. Eyebrows definitely raised in regards to new single decker to be produced by ADL.



Suggesting that a Scania OmniCity is high quality is setting a very low bar; whilst have no issues with Scania's which are certainly reliable, the build quality is very poor and the suspension is hard. I can definitely think of better full-size single deckers.

Although have never rode an MAN Lions City, having experienced their offerings in the UK in the form of ALX300s, Enviro300s, MCV Evolutions and the rare Wright Meridian, they are not up to snuff.



Except it isn't just Stagecoach that have had problems, MAN's are generally well known for having a poor reputation in the UK, often overheating and breaking down.

Nottingham City Transport operated 20 Optare Versas with MAN engines in 2008, but were having constant problems with engines overheating that they had to add extra cooling vents. There were plans to re-engine the Versas with Cummins engines, but were instead withdrawn after 5 years in 2013 and replaced by existing Cummins powered Optare Solo SRs and long-wheelbase ADL Enviro200s.



ADL has the advantage of being the largest UK bus manufacturer, and have been able to diversify their offerings. What is more surprising is operators like Lothian Buses and Brighton & Hove have transferred their orders over to ADL as they were long-standing Wright customers so agree they are vulnerable to changing market conditions.
Optare Tempo SR's in Nottingham were also pretty dreadful (they aren't MAN I know). Do Optare still make them for the UK?
Also do MAN still sell buses (I know about coaches) in the UK?
 

mbonwick

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I dont get this Stagecoach are stupid thing. They bought hundreds of MAN E300s but most of the time they were in the workshop broken down. Then they tried Neoplans on Megabus which did not last long.
Think about it from a historical perspective.
The MAN 18.220/ALX300 came onto the scene in 1998, and is generally fairly well regarded as far as MANs go. Certainly no Volvo B10M, but reliable enough.
The Neoplans came along in 2004/5. By this point there were hundreds of MAN/ALX300s providing good service - why wouldn't you use the same engine type?
Late 2007, the 18.240/E300 came along as the successor/replacement for the 18.220/ALX300 so it was logical that orders would continue. However, the reliability dropped off a cliff, and it took just 2 years for Stagecoach to react and switch entirely to all-ADL products; the 2009/10 order was the last for MAN based products.
 

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