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Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

37114

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Silly me, Lothian have ordered another batch of ADL bodied Volvos. Seems Lothian is the only costumer in that particular market
Which raises the point about do Volvo have an all electric double deck chassis available or planned? I recall Lothian have some BYD ADL Electrics on order for trial so Volvo risk losing their last major bus company in the future if they can't provide a non diesel alternative.

I believe they were on a five year lease agreement, probably scrapped by now

While the last ADL bodied Scania and Volvo orders were over a year ago

ADL have bodied quite a few gas Scanias this year, mostly for Bristol
 
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Snow1964

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Which raises the point about do Volvo have an all electric double deck chassis available or planned? I recall Lothian have some BYD ADL Electrics on order for trial so Volvo risk losing their last major bus company in the future if they can't provide a non diesel alternative.
Volvo did say (about 3 years ago in a Trading or annual report) that plan was to phase out hybrid and diesel chassis for Europe, did not intend to update the designs any further. The same update indicated Volvo planned to move to full electric complete buses in Europe.

It kind of implied that there were no plans to sell an electric chassis for other body companies. Wrightbus had opened its own chassis factory (built with public money from the New Routemaster development), the Streetdeck chassis is identical (except behind rear wheels). With the phasing out of orders for hybrids Volvo are only left with some B8 chassis orders (and trickle of B5 orders)

As ADL have given notice of closure of Dennis chassis plant in Guildford, I do wonder if they intend to start making them, even if in kit form at the Malaysia factory or a NFI factory in Canada. Possibly ADL don’t see a long term future for big diesel buses (although smaller low cost rural buses likely to stay diesel)

Just totalling up the London requirements for 2021 (based on tender announcements) and majority of the 400 BYD chassis could be committed. (Don’t know if ADL have the orders), but even if some slip into 2022, I struggle to see where all the electric bus chassis are coming from especially if other Cities start ordering lots of electric buses as well.
 

cnjb8

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Which raises the point about do Volvo have an all electric double deck chassis available or planned? I recall Lothian have some BYD ADL Electrics on order for trial so Volvo risk losing their last major bus company in the future if they can't provide a non diesel alternative.



ADL have bodied quite a few gas Scanias this year, mostly for Bristol
Those Bristol Scanias were ordered over a year ago and I was talking about the diesel variants.
 

MotCO

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As ADL have given notice of closure of Dennis chassis plant in Guildford, I do wonder if they intend to start making them, even if in kit form at the Malaysia factory or a NFI factory in Canada. Possibly ADL don’t see a long term future for big diesel buses (although smaller low cost rural buses likely to stay diesel)

Just totalling up the London requirements for 2021 (based on tender announcements) and majority of the 400 BYD chassis could be committed. (Don’t know if ADL have the orders), but even if some slip into 2022, I struggle to see where all the electric bus chassis are coming from especially if other Cities start ordering lots of electric buses as well.

I did assume that ADL chassis production was going to move to Scarborough and Falkirk; this would remove the long distances the Guildford built chassis had to travel. However, I do take the point that Enviro 200/400/500 diesel and hybrid chassis could start to decline, but would they start designing their own EV chassis? Does it make more sense to redesign from the bottom up, rather than just adapt diesel chassis - this is very much the approach Teslla took. Have ADL left the rural market to the Optare (or should I say Switch?) Solo and wheel forward Streetlite?

With regards to the 400 BDL chassis, Nat Ex West Midlands are also buying ADL 400 EVs, so not all will be coming to London.
 

Mikey C

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I did assume that ADL chassis production was going to move to Scarborough and Falkirk; this would remove the long distances the Guildford built chassis had to travel. However, I do take the point that Enviro 200/400/500 diesel and hybrid chassis could start to decline, but would they start designing their own EV chassis? Does it make more sense to redesign from the bottom up, rather than just adapt diesel chassis - this is very much the approach Teslla took. Have ADL left the rural market to the Optare (or should I say Switch?) Solo and wheel forward Streetlite?

With regards to the 400 BDL chassis, Nat Ex West Midlands are also buying ADL 400 EVs, so not all will be coming to London.
ADL are moving chassis production to Falkirk, as they want it all under the same roof


Following experience of vertical integration at ADL’s facilities in North America and the Asia Pacific region, where building chassis and body on the same site has demonstrated efficiencies in terms of output, time, cost and co-ordination, ADL intends to transfer chassis production to its Falkirk factory. This will impact around 200 employees in manufacturing and operational support roles at Guildford. Non-manufacturing functions including Engineering, Test & Development and Aftermarket will continue to be based at the Guildford site.
 

hst43102

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Have ADL left the rural market to the Optare (or should I say Switch?) Solo and wheel forward Streetlite?
Absolutely not. I think they have sold more short E200's than both Solos and Streetlite WF's in the last 5 years or so.
 

MotCO

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Absolutely not. I think they have sold more short E200's than both Solos and Streetlite WF's in the last 5 years or so.

But were they for urban or rural use? Probably difficult to say, but I would have thought that Solos and WF Streetlites were lighter-weight and possibly cheaper and more suited to light rural work rather than intensive urban work.
 

CN04NRJ

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Most of them had already been parked up out of use for months before covid happened.

One re-entered service in late February, the rest had been parked since September/October 2019.

The Lothian BYD / E400EV is for 4 buses vs 98 E400 B8L/B5s so I'd hardly say Volvo are losing a major customer.
 

hst43102

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But were they for urban or rural use? Probably difficult to say, but I would have thought that Solos and WF Streetlites were lighter-weight and possibly cheaper and more suited to light rural work rather than intensive urban work.
I was referring to small operators' orders - usually a single or maybe two vehicles at a time. Don't count this as fact, but I think the E200 might have a smaller turning circle due to the wheel being behind the door?
 

cnjb8

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One re-entered service in late February, the rest had been parked since September/October 2019.

The Lothian BYD / E400EV is for 4 buses vs 98 E400 B8L/B5s so I'd hardly say Volvo are losing a major customer.
Of course they are! If Volvo actually made an electric chassis then Lothian wouldn't have ordered the BYDs. With the shift to electric, the more Volvo loose Lothian orders unless they change with the times and make an electric chassis
 

CN04NRJ

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Of course they are! If Volvo actually made an electric chassis then Lothian wouldn't have ordered the BYDs. With the shift to electric, the more Volvo loose Lothian orders unless they change with the times and make an electric chassis

That's presuming that Lothian are moving towards electric. As far as I understand they're for a free city centre shuttle service and their purchase is heavily subsidised.

Who knows? - they might move towards Hydrogen or CNG? But for now the future seems firmly diesel.
 

Astradyne

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I did assume that ADL chassis production was going to move to Scarborough and Falkirk; this would remove the long distances the Guildford built chassis had to travel. However, I do take the point that Enviro 200/400/500 diesel and hybrid chassis could start to decline, but would they start designing their own EV chassis? Does it make more sense to redesign from the bottom up, rather than just adapt diesel chassis - this is very much the approach Teslla took. Have ADL left the rural market to the Optare (or should I say Switch?) Solo and wheel forward Streetlite?

With regards to the 400 BDL chassis, Nat Ex West Midlands are also buying ADL 400 EVs, so not all will be coming to London.
NFI, ADLs parent company produces it's own electric chassis for the American market. Not sure how long the ADL/BYD partnership tie up is for, but can see NFI wanting ADL to body their technology at some point in the future.
 

LOL The Irony

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NFI, ADLs parent company produces it's own electric chassis for the American market. Not sure how long the ADL/BYD partnership tie up is for, but can see NFI wanting ADL to body their technology at some point in the future.
Or get ADL to make an in-house electric chassis.

On another note, why don't Scania start making hydrogen buses? They already know how to store gas and their chassis are well reputed.
 

MotCO

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NFI, ADLs parent company produces it's own electric chassis for the American market. Not sure how long the ADL/BYD partnership tie up is for, but can see NFI wanting ADL to body their technology at some point in the future.

What size are the chassis? Doubt it would be Enviro 200 size, and I doubt they would be double deckers. If anything, ADL can design and make their own chassis, incorporating the electric gubbins from NFI.
 

Snow1964

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What size are the chassis? Doubt it would be Enviro 200 size, and I doubt they would be double deckers. If anything, ADL can design and make their own chassis, incorporating the electric gubbins from NFI.

New Flyer sells 3 lengths 35, 40 or 60 feet
Don’t know exact chassis length, but with xcelsior body is :
10.80m, 12.24m, 18.29m (over body, longer over bumpers)

The electric version uses Siemens equipment

 

Astradyne

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New Flyer sells 3 lengths 35, 40 or 60 feet
Don’t know exact chassis length, but with xcelsior body is :
10.80m, 12.24m, 18.29m (over body, longer over bumpers)

The electric version uses Siemens equipment

And I am sure there are sections that can be removed to shorten the chassis.

Why would a company reinvent the wheel when it already has the answer. ADL is just a trading name for NFI, you have to face facts, ADL is essentially an American company now.
 

Goldfish62

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And I am sure there are sections that can be removed to shorten the chassis.

Why would a company reinvent the wheel when it already has the answer. ADL is just a trading name for NFI, you have to face facts, ADL is essentially an American company now.
I think you'll find that Alexander Dennis Ltd is a British company. It is not a trading name of NFI and the fact that the parent company is not British does not mean that ADL isn't British.
 

Man of Kent

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And I am sure there are sections that can be removed to shorten the chassis.

Why would a company reinvent the wheel when it already has the answer. ADL is just a trading name for NFI, you have to face facts, ADL is essentially an American company now.
NFI is a Canadian company. While there may be some transferable technology in terms of manufacturing techniques, it is unlikely that their existing designs can easily be modified for the UK market.

For one thing, North American buses tend to be built like tanks, and fuel economy appears not to be important. If curb weight in the New Flyer description referred to in message 856 equates to our unladen weight, then the 36' Excelsior at 11113kg for the diesel version is rather heavier than a long E200 MMC at around 8500kg. The size of the standard fuel tanks for each vehicle is instructive - 220 litres in the E200, against 379 or 473 litres in the Excelsior. Admittedly the latter usually has to power air conditioning as well, but the vehicles are worlds apart. NFI buses are not going to be seen on the roads of Britain any time soon!
 

MotCO

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NFI is a Canadian company. While there may be some transferable technology in terms of manufacturing techniques, it is unlikely that their existing designs can easily be modified for the UK market.

For one thing, North American buses tend to be built like tanks, and fuel economy appears not to be important. If curb weight in the New Flyer description referred to in message 856 equates to our unladen weight, then the 36' Excelsior at 11113kg for the diesel version is rather heavier than a long E200 MMC at around 8500kg. The size of the standard fuel tanks for each vehicle is instructive - 220 litres in the E200, against 379 or 473 litres in the Excelsior. Admittedly the latter usually has to power air conditioning as well, but the vehicles are worlds apart. NFI buses are not going to be seen on the roads of Britain any time soon!

But can the electric gubbins not be transplanted into Enviro 200, 400 and 500 chassis, or specially designed UK chassis specifically for electric buses?
 

CBlue

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But can the electric gubbins not be transplanted into Enviro 200, 400 and 500 chassis, or specially designed UK chassis specifically for electric buses?
If they're as over-engineered as the rest of the chassis? Probably not!
 

GusB

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I don't see why the "electric gubbins" can't be transplanted into existing (or new) ADL products. After all, the "diesel gubbins" is currently bought in from the likes of Cummins, Allison, Voith etc. and put together on a given platform. If the parent company has the expertise to integrate an electric drivetrain into their buses, there's no reason why ADL can't.

Ultimately it'll boil down to cost, surely? If the BYD/ADL combination is the most cost-effective to build, ADL may continue with it. It's not just about ADL providing an electric bus, but it's giving BYD access to the UK market too.
 

Volvodart

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ADL might be worried that BYD would go elsewhere if they had a competing product.
 

Snow1964

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ADL might be worried that BYD would go elsewhere if they had a competing product.

BYD already have a factory in Hungary, and there is another one coming in Northern France. They are making complete single deck electric buses.

ADL could drop the BYD chassis E200 if it needed BYD chassis for double decks and total chassis quantity is rationed.

As ADL make the hybrid (with short distance full electric), as sold to Brighton and Ireland, I suspect not a question of electric drive, but of electricity storage. ADL have an electric bus, but don’t have a supplier of big batteries (that are light enough) except BYD.

Meanwhile Optare seem to have got their software in fair shape, but don’t seem to turn out buses very fast.

Hence the proliferation of buses with Egyptian and Portuguese bodies and Swedish and Hungarian chassis, fitted with seats from other countries. I’m not sure there is a 100% British bus anymore.
 

37114

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I’m not sure there is a 100% British bus anymore.
That has long since been the case, probably since the 80s. The supply chain behind the manufacturers has been multi national for years. Even a British based parts supplier will no doubt source some components/ raw materials outside of the UK.
 

Goldfish62

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That has long since been the case, probably since the 80s. The supply chain behind the manufacturers has been multi national for years. Even a British based parts supplier will no doubt source some components/ raw materials outside of the UK.
I doubt if there's a 100% (insert country) bus anymore. As you say that's how the supply chain works.
 

LOL The Irony

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But can the electric gubbins not be transplanted into Enviro 200, 400 and 500 chassis, or specially designed UK chassis specifically for electric buses?
Wright used Siemens hybrid systems on the New Routemaster, so it doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility. volvo also use Siemens gubbins in their hybrids.
 

CBlue

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That has long since been the case, probably since the 80s. The supply chain behind the manufacturers has been multi national for years. Even a British based parts supplier will no doubt source some components/ raw materials outside of the UK.
Leyland Bus starting buying in Cummins engines and ZF/Voith gearboxes in the early 1980s in order to remain competitive. At least Cummins diesels are or were made in the UK.
 

Jordan Adam

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Leyland Bus starting buying in Cummins engines and ZF/Voith gearboxes in the early 1980s in order to remain competitive. At least Cummins diesels are or were made in the UK.
And probably because the Cummins units were far more capable than the other offerings... :lol:

I believe the Cummins engines fitted to UK buses are indeed still made in the UK.
 

GusB

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And probably because the Cummins units were far more capable than the other offerings... :lol:

I believe the Cummins engines fitted to UK buses are indeed still made in the UK.
It was more due to the fact that the TL11 was manufactured by the truck division of Leyland after the bus division was separated out, and it became more expensive as a result. Cummins was seen as a more competitive option.
 

CBlue

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It was more due to the fact that the TL11 was manufactured by the truck division of Leyland after the bus division was separated out, and it became more expensive as a result. Cummins was seen as a more competitive option.
The L10 offered power outputs (around 300hp) far in excess of the 180hp Gardner extracted from the 6LXB, or the 220hp TL11 and offered better fuel economy than the Leyland engine as I understand.
 

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