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UK face coverings discussion

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trebor79

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Well, for a start, if you've got a mask over your mouth but not your nose you are clearly not exempt. If you were exempt you wouldn't have one at all.
Not necessarily. If you were exempt but fervently believed that they made a difference you might try your best to wear one. That might involve wearing it part time, or wearing it just over your mouth, depending upon the nature of the exemption.
I'm exempt but I sometimes wear one - in my case usually to avoid confrontation with Mrs Trebor rather than because I think they are in any way a good idea.
 
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Yew

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It's a new virus. Our understanding develops by the day.

Maybe I'd have let you have that a few months ago, but it's not new, and exhibits similar characteristics to other Coronaviruses. Quite simply, "it's new, we don't know" isn't satisfactory any more.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not necessarily. If you were exempt but fervently believed that they made a difference you might try your best to wear one. That might involve wearing it part time, or wearing it just over your mouth, depending upon the nature of the exemption.

If you wear it part time you should remove it fully and store it between wearings. Putting it on your chin is ill-advised because it will pick up other gunk there e.g. sweat.

Wearing it just on your mouth carries no benefit, and so nobody should do this; it could cause undesirable risk compensation for example.
 

trebor79

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Wearing it just on your mouth carries no benefit, and so nobody should do this; it could cause undesirable risk compensation for example.
I'd say it has as much benefit as wearing it properly :lol: . I can understand why exempt people might do this - avoids the confrontation/odd one out syndrome but avoids most of the issue with wearing them.
 

DB

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It needs to be, because people are not complying.

But as you seem to have conceded yourself, there's not really any evidence that masks make any difference, so why does it matter if they're not worn properly?
 

Bletchleyite

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But as you seem to have conceded yourself, there's not really any evidence that masks make any difference, so why does it matter if they're not worn properly?

Because people should properly follow the law. If the law is not needed, it should be repealed, but until it is it should be followed properly.

I think it is unclear at present; there is a chance they reduce viral load, and this will become visible in how the hospital admission and death figures follow the main curve over the next few weeks.
 

yorkie

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...where are they finding all of these restriction enthusiasts?!
Some people who want them are in well paid, secure, work from home jobs. They don't care about people who work in sectors like hospitality, nor do they care about the mental health of people who don't have the luxuries they have.
Because people should properly follow the law. If the law is not needed, it should be repealed, but until it is it should be followed properly.

I think it is unclear at present; there is a chance they reduce viral load, and this will become visible in how the hospital admission and death figures follow the main curve over the next few weeks.
There are several potential reasons for reduced hospitalisation & death figures; it's very probably a combination of multiple factors. So we should be careful not to assume it's down to one particular factor.
 

DB

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I think it is unclear at present; there is a chance they reduce viral load, and this will become visible in how the hospital admission and death figures follow the main curve over the next few weeks.

It won't show that, because there could be many other possible causes, e.g. increasing immunity among the population compared to April, more people avoiding others, changes in the virus, etc.
 

Skimpot flyer

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Ok, here’s a short non-scientific study of mask wearing, as experienced on a mid-morning London Overground train, from Clapham Junction to Willesden Junction, today

(Bear in mind that at this time on a weekday, the majority of passengers are bound for the Westfield mall at Shepherds Bush, where face coverings are also mandatory)

From my own observations, looking around on the platform and at passengers alighting or boarding at 4 intermediate stations, I noted the following numbers:

No mask: 12 (including 1 member of LO staff, and myself)

No mask, drinking beverage for entire journey 21-minute journey: 1

Worn under chin: 13

Worn hanging off ear: 1

Worn over mouth only: 17

Held on face with hand (not using ear loops!) 1

Worn correctly: 42

As I said, not scientific. But I saw under 50% of passengers wearing the covering in the correct manner, and 13.8% non-wearing



One thing that made my morning was that a young Asian woman with glasses, who was also bare-faced, but looked decidedly nervous, saw me and seemed to deliberately sit opposite me (the seating is longitudinal) - perhaps for reassurance? When she caught my eye, she gave a shy but beautiful smile... which of course I would not have seen if she was masked !
 

trebor79

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Because people should properly follow the law. If the law is not needed, it should be repealed, but until it is it should be followed properly.
Even if the law is an ass? Even if the law was introduced through an abuse of emergency powers by a government that has no strategy, that by its own admission is happy to break laws that it itself drafted and agreed to? Even if certain chosen people are beyond reproach for breaking other laws made under the same process? Even if the law was introduced as a result of public pressure and not for any scientific reason that it would do any good - even the government advisors had told us for months they don't work and possibly do more harm than good outside of clinical settings?

Masks have become like a religion. There was a facebook post from our local paper asking opinions on the Asda enforcement story. Lots of "Anything to keep us safer" and "If people can't wear a mask they shouldn't be allowed in the shop, they can shop online", as well as a smattering of people of the opposite persuasion. One of the "Don't let 'em in, protect yourself and others" brigade is someone I knew professionally. He's got a science background, he knows masks are nonsensical (particularly the bit about protecting yourself), yet there he is blindly following the mob and whipping them up further.
It's become a belief for many, and for me. I'm a fervent atheist, but if I witness proof that there is some almighty being I'll change my view. If I see proof that masks work I'll change my view (but there's still a balance to be made given the societal and personal impacts of them). But for the mask believers, like the God believers, their belief is all that matters. They believe therefore the rest of us are wrong and risking their granny's life. Right now we have a lot of maskivists behaving like aggressive Jehova's Witnesses. Hopefully we can learn to live alongside each other just like religious and non-religious folk do. (I don't think the mask genie can ever be fully put back into the bottle, but I hope that before to long the mandation is removed and it becomes personal choice again)
Some people who want them are in well paid, secure, work from home jobs. They don't care about people who work in sectors like hospitality, nor do they care about the mental health of people who don't have the luxuries they have.
I'm one of those fortunate to be in a relatively secure job that I do from home even in normal times, but I am absolutely opposed to nearly every measure that is now being taken. It's completely unjustifiable to be wrecking the economy and peoples livelihoods and futures in this way.
 

Bikeman78

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”The law” does not state any such thing.


You’re welcome to that opinion but it is not one of the listed excuses in legislation for not wearing a face covering, and you risk being fined or prosecuted if you attempt to rely upon it. If you feel it should be a listed excuse I would suggest writing to your MP.
I wouldn't bother. I wrote to my MP in February and I've still not had a reply. Even more pointless than dealing with the council.
 

DB

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It's become a belief for many, and for me. I'm a fervent atheist, but if I witness proof that there is some almighty being I'll change my view. If I see proof that masks work I'll change my view (but there's still a balance to be made given the societal and personal impacts of them). But for the mask believers, like the God believers, their belief is all that matters. They believe therefore the rest of us are wrong and risking their granny's life. Right now we have a lot of maskivists behaving like aggressive Jehova's Witnesses. Hopefully we can learn to live alongside each other just like religious and non-religious folk do. (I don't think the mask genie can ever be fully put back into the bottle, but I hope that before to long the mandation is removed and it becomes personal choice again)

I'm one of those fortunate to be in a relatively secure job that I do from home even in normal times, but I am absolutely opposed to nearly every measure that is now being taken. It's completely unjustifiable to be wrecking the economy and peoples livelihoods and futures in this way.

You are right, and so much ends up like a religious belief these days - lockdowns, masks, Brexit, etc. I assume that it's a combination of 24-hour news pushing particular agendas, and then this being reinforced on social media.

I also work from home a lot normally, and have a fair amount of flexibility about when I go into our offices unless something urgent crops up. I have been going into the nearest one of the offices more often recently, but am cutting that back again now as I don't want to end up under 14-day house arrest if someone also using that office happens to get a positive test (the fact that I have a room in the office for my exclusive use won't come into it, I'm sure).
 

MikeWM

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Your source? Or is this just what you believe?

John Lee thinks it is plausible, and he's got a better record over the last six months than most.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/07/our-government-should-not-be-copying-totalitarian-states/
...the idea that masks stop the spread is not only totally unproven, but also facile. It is a failure of imagination. When a droplet hits a mask, it will dry out within seconds or, at most, minutes. If there is any substance to the droplet other than water, it will turn into a dust particle. Unless you superglue the mask to your face, there will be a constant rain of dust particles coming out from all directions around your mask as you breathe. They will be breathed in by others and the virus will do what it does.

But yes, it is just speculation, like pretty much anything else in the 'science' to do with masks.

The droplet as a whole does not evaporate. The virus is heavier than air and does not float in the air. Only condition where this happens is in aerosols (source: https://www.tmc.edu/news/2020/07/can-the-coronavirus-spread-through-the-air/).

I'm not sure why you think aerosol droplets quickly evaporate (as per that link) but droplets caught in a mask - held against skin which is at a rather higher temperature than air - do not. To be fair I've not thoroughly investigated the matter, but it doesn't seem likely.
 

yorkie

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I'm one of those fortunate to be in a relatively secure job that I do from home even in normal times, but I am absolutely opposed to nearly every measure that is now being taken.
Likewise. I am considering resigning from at least one of my jobs (2hrs / week) as I am fed up!
 

DustyBin

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Likewise. I am considering resigning from at least one of my jobs (2hrs / week) as I am fed up!

I actually work from home anyway and have done for years, and whilst my job isn't under immediate threat I'm accutely aware that this could change very quickly.... If there is a severe recession (or even depression) as seems very likely, most if not every sector will be affected, not just those suffering particularly badly at present.
 

bramling

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I actually work from home anyway and have done for years, and whilst my job isn't under immediate threat I'm accutely aware that this could change very quickly.... If there is a severe recession (or even depression) as seems very likely, most if not every sector will be affected, not just those suffering particularly badly at present.

Quite so. If even railway staff are bothered about what the future might hold then the outlook isn’t good.

People *will* grow increasingly angry when they experience the consequences of all this.
 

yorkie

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I actually work from home anyway and have done for years, and whilst my job isn't under immediate threat I'm accutely aware that this could change very quickly.... If there is a severe recession (or even depression) as seems very likely, most if not every sector will be affected, not just those suffering particularly badly at present.
This is something the hysterical brigade will not accept/admit.
 

Richard Scott

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This is something the hysterical brigade will not accept/admit.
Wouldn't surprise me if they all trot out the 'well the government can pay' line as if money grows on trees. This seems to be another issue escaping a number of people in this country.
 

island

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The British Medical Association has called for face coverings to be made mandatory in offices and indoor workplaces.

I have tolerated and complied face covering nonsense thus far, but that step would be a breaking point for me. Thankfully working from home is on the way back into fashion.
 

packermac

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I wouldn't have thought they can refuse people who are exempt entry.
Would that that be in breach of the equality act?
Refusing entry to someone who can't wear a mask due to disability related reasons?
The Starcross Ferry says it is unable to accept passengers who are unable to wear a mask, so I have no idea of the actual legalities.
 

35B

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This is something the hysterical brigade will not accept/admit.
“The hysterical brigade”, as you so dismissively put it are also the bulk of the population who were already deserting city centres back in March, and whose confidence in being able to lead lives normally is already extremely fragile. You discount dramatically the possibility that without measures, confidence will be lower, and the impact on businesses worse, not better.

I‘ve a trip to London planned for Tuesday, to see an exhibition. Persuading my wife to go has meant that we’ve ended up driving rather than using the train, as it means we have flexibility to the last minute, and we’ll also save money - central London parking (Bloomsbury) for 6 hours has come in at £12. That’s not being “hysterical”, but a reasoned response to a risk analysis. The only thing worse than putting measures in place (imho, barely more than making stuff enforceable that should have been enforced months ago) is doing nothing, and seeing confidence collapse further.
 

DB

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“The hysterical brigade”, as you so dismissively put it are also the bulk of the population who were already deserting city centres back in March, and whose confidence in being able to lead lives normally is already extremely fragile. You discount dramatically the possibility that without measures, confidence will be lower, and the impact on businesses worse, not better.

Let's remember that this whole "confidence" thing (which seems to now be regarded by many as far more important than demonstrable risks) only came about because of relentless government scaremongering, supported by the media. If the restrictions were removed, it might well have a short term impact on businesses but people would soon get over it and get back out again - I think the situation with pubs and restaurants in August very much demonstrates that: a short-term incentive, and people were straight back out in sizeable numbers.
 

bramling

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“The hysterical brigade”, as you so dismissively put it are also the bulk of the population who were already deserting city centres back in March, and whose confidence in being able to lead lives normally is already extremely fragile. You discount dramatically the possibility that without measures, confidence will be lower, and the impact on businesses worse, not better.

I‘ve a trip to London planned for Tuesday, to see an exhibition. Persuading my wife to go has meant that we’ve ended up driving rather than using the train, as it means we have flexibility to the last minute, and we’ll also save money - central London parking (Bloomsbury) for 6 hours has come in at £12. That’s not being “hysterical”, but a reasoned response to a risk analysis. The only thing worse than putting measures in place (imho, barely more than making stuff enforceable that should have been enforced months ago) is doing nothing, and seeing confidence collapse further.

Yet a paltry £10 off a meal brought people out in droves. Doesn’t exactly imply lack of confidence.
 
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Scrotnig

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I think the situation with pubs and restaurants in August very much demonstrates that: a short-term incentive, and people were straight back out in sizeable numbers.
And now we're being told off and punished for doing so.
 

island

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The Starcross Ferry says it is unable to accept passengers who are unable to wear a mask, so I have no idea of the actual legalities.
It is unlikely to be legal to refuse someone from a ferry crossing for this reason, as there is a duty to make reasonable adjustments. I don’t know what the size of the ferry is, but it would seem reasonable to me that a person with a bona fide exemption from wearing a face covering could be accommodated but if necessary asked to remain in a separate section of the ferry.
 

fulmar

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Interestingly, the Scottish Government regulations have the following to say on the subject of refusing exempt people access to services. Both the English and Welsh regulations seem to be silent on the subject.

"Those exempt under the guidance and regulations do not have to prove their exemption and should not be made to wear a face covering or denied access to public transport, shops or public places. We ask for people to be aware of the exemptions and to treat each other with kindness". (my emphasis)
 

The_Train

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Had a walk into town today and although I didn't go inside any shops (my business could be conducted at an ATM) I actually noticed a drastic increase in the number of folk wearing masks/face coverings (correctly) whilst just wandering the streets which I found quite interesting considering this is not part of the guidelines...….yet!
 

DustyBin

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“The hysterical brigade”, as you so dismissively put it are also the bulk of the population who were already deserting city centres back in March, and whose confidence in being able to lead lives normally is already extremely fragile. You discount dramatically the possibility that without measures, confidence will be lower, and the impact on businesses worse, not better.

I‘ve a trip to London planned for Tuesday, to see an exhibition. Persuading my wife to go has meant that we’ve ended up driving rather than using the train, as it means we have flexibility to the last minute, and we’ll also save money - central London parking (Bloomsbury) for 6 hours has come in at £12. That’s not being “hysterical”, but a reasoned response to a risk analysis. The only thing worse than putting measures in place (imho, barely more than making stuff enforceable that should have been enforced months ago) is doing nothing, and seeing confidence collapse further.

I respectfully disagree with you here I'm afraid. This is rapidly becoming a self fulfilling prophecy whereby the government (and the media) are feeding the fear and sections of society are acting accordingly.... Let's be clear, nobody is living a normal life at present regardless of their point of view.

The situation now is very different (or at least should be very diferent) to that in March, or even April or May. When this first kicked off I was genuinely concerned that we were facing an Ebola or SARS-CoV type virus in terms of virulence, that would kill tens of thousands (at least) indiscriminately without the introduction of drastic mitigation measures. As such I supported the original 'lockdown'. However, I now firmly believe that this is no longer the case, and that comparisons with Influenza aren't that far wide of the mark. Steps should be taken to protect the vulnerable but we need to return to the 'old normal' with immediate effect. The economic fallout from continued restrictions is going to be devastating and as has been pointed out time and time again will directly and indirectly lead to far more deaths, across all sections of society, than Covid-19 as well as forcing potentially millions into poverty.

A final point in regard to public confidence. If it has indeed collapsed, why has the government felt the need to introduce restrictions on social activites, as well as reverting to WFH guidance? This to me suggests that confidence is high, too high for the government's liking, and has therefore been curtailed....
 
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