UK face coverings discussion

[DB]

But what I don't get is why.

I would be uncomfortable with entering a shop without a mask on with no other provision, because I'd feel I was being eyed up by everyone and would be muttered/tutted about and maybe confronted.

If, however, there was a clear process to enter - go to the customer service desk, obtain a lanyard by stating I am exempt, and that there's prominent signage in the store stating that those who are exempt will be wearing such lanyards, and being able to wave it at anyone who says anything - I would feel much more comfortable, because I have proof I am in the right by way of a store issued lanyard and can be told "that's the store's rules, if you dislike it shop elsewhere".

Sorry, as someone with an exemption I simply don't agree - I am avoiding shops where possible (apart from food shops, I have not been in any since the mask mandate came in). I can't really avoid food shops, and I don't want to be singled out by having to go and get a 'note from teacher' to the customer service desk - I just want to go and do the shopping as anyone else would and get out as quickly as possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, as someone with an exemption I simply don't agree - I am avoiding shops where possible (apart from food shops, I have not been in any since the mask mandate came in). I can't really avoid food shops, and I don't want to be singled out by having to go and get a 'note from teacher' to the customer service desk - I just want to go and do the shopping as anyone else would and get out as quickly as possible.

Would you be embarrassed to have and use a Blue Badge to obtain the special treatment that that entitles you to?

 

[DustyBin]

Apologies, new member posting on a contentious subject(!) but what I really don’t understand is why, if the government really believe masks make a difference, they allowed so many exemptions and (my main point) there is no minimum standard/specification for the mask itself. In London last week I observed everything from see through scarves to full face respirators being used as face coverings, and a particularly high number of valved masks which I believe defeat the object of wearing one in the first place. I don’t want to wear a mask for the reasons repeatedly stated by others, but I’d be a lot more willing to do so if a standard mask was adopted, proven to work and the public were given proper guidance as to their correct use. As it is, we’re expected to wear a face covering simply because we’ve been told to, and whilst I (generally) comply I completely understand why others don’t.

 

[Meerkat]

As I think it’s a nonsense unless in a high risk area the only thing making me wear a mask is that I can’t be arsed with the glares and muttering and don’t want to make the staff’s life difficult.
if I had an exemption I would definitely want something that explained it to those staring enviously.

 

[Bantamzen]

Would you be embarrassed to have and use a Blue Badge to obtain the special treatment that that entitles you to?

Wait, you are calling the reasonable adjustments made for people with disabilities "special treatment"? Now I see what the real problem is here!

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I think it’s a nonsense unless in a high risk area the only thing making me wear a mask is that I can’t be arsed with the glares and muttering and don’t want to make the staff’s life difficult.
if I had an exemption I would definitely want something that explained it to those staring enviously.

Or in anger, or whatever.

I just don't accept the "singling out" argument, as you are already singled out by not wearing one.

Wait, you are calling the reasonable adjustments made for people with disabilities "special treatment"? Now I see what the real problem is here!

It is special treatment. It's special treatment that someone with a disability is entitled to by virtue of that disability in order to ensure that they are not disadvantaged. If they did not receive special treatment, they would be disadvantaged, and that would not be OK.

Other than the slight that seems to have developed in schools surrounding the term "special needs", which needs to be stamped on, in my book "special" is a positive word. Maybe it's different in darkest Yorkshire?

 

[Bantamzen]

It is special treatment. It's special treatment that someone with a disability is entitled to by virtue of that disability in order to ensure that they are not disadvantaged. If they did not receive special treatment, they would be disadvantaged, and that would not be OK.

No it isn't, special treatment would mean champagne & caviar on arrival, being pushed by a team of servants on a red carpet. Reasonable adjustments are just that, adjustments made such as car park spaces by entrances & concrete ramps to allow as normal a function for those that need it. Calling it "special treatment" smacks of social envy I'm afraid. Likewise a reasonable adjustment for someone unable to wear a mask is to allow them not to wear a mask.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do think valved masks should be prohibited as they totally miss the point.

 

[nlogax]

Was on a Heathrow to Glasgow flight last night and a woman in the row in front of me was obviously not having a good time of it.. she made sure to tell the steward that she couldn't wear a mask. From my perspective it looked like she was on the verge of a panic attack. Wasn't at all helpful when the BA steward asked if she was in possession of an 'exemption card', whatever one of those is. Of course she wasn't..they don't exist.

I've no qualms wearing a mask, and I'll continue to wear them as I'm comfortable in knowing there's a general upside in wearing one in the current climate - but to watch people who obviously can't wear them get singled out is pretty rotten.

 

[LAX54]

Was on a Heathrow to Glasgow flight last night and a woman in the row in front of me was obviously not having a good time of it.. she made sure to tell the steward that she couldn't wear a mask. From my perspective it looked like she was on the verge of a panic attack. Wasn't at all helpful when the BA steward asked if she was in possession of an 'exemption card', whatever one of those is. Of course she wasn't..they don't exist.

I've no qualms wearing a mask, and I'll continue to wear them as I'm comfortable in knowing there's a general upside in wearing one in the current climate - but to watch people who obviously can't wear them get singled out is pretty rotten.

They do exist ( I have one ) they are recognised with most Industries 'Sunflower scheme'

 

[nlogax]

They do exist ( I have one ) they are recognised with most Industries 'Sunflower scheme'

Ok, but it's by no means mandatory..

 

[Mag_seven]

I do think valved masks should be prohibited as they totally miss the point.

If you are talking about the fact that they expel breath then I should point out that all masks do this anyway - for example the "surgical" type ones simply expel breath out the sides. If masks didn't expel breath the wearer would suffocate!

 

[DB]

Well, ermmm, cases started to go up??

They were going up anyway! Logically if masks were helping there should at least have been a dip in the increase line.

Would you be embarrassed to have and use a Blue Badge to obtain the special treatment that that entitles you to?

Not the same thing - a blue badge goes in a car, it's not somethign worn by an individual.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you are talking about the fact that they expel breath then I should point out that all masks do this anyway - for example the "surgical" type ones simply expel breath out the sides. If masks didn't expel breath the wearer would suffocate!

They expel a concentrated stream of breath, making any virions go further than were it not being worn.

 

[Richard Scott]

The big issue with masks is that they're unproven so we can debate who's exempt and whether or not they should prove it until the cows come home but until there is some good solid evidence a number of people will be questioning the point of masks myself included. When we get silly adverts on radio with someone claiming 'I wear a mask to protect my colleagues' without substantiated evidence then the whole thing is just the government being seen to be doing something again, whether it has any value or not. I do wear one but it is under duress.

 

[bramling]

But what I don't get is why.

I would be uncomfortable with entering a shop without a mask on with no other provision, because I'd feel I was being eyed up by everyone and would be muttered/tutted about and maybe confronted.

If, however, there was a clear process to enter - go to the customer service desk, obtain a lanyard by stating I am exempt, and that there's prominent signage in the store stating that those who are exempt will be wearing such lanyards, and being able to wave it at anyone who says anything - I would feel much more comfortable, because I have proof I am in the right by way of a store issued lanyard and can be told "that's the store's rules, if you dislike it shop elsewhere".

I wouldn't even be uncomfortable saying "I am exempt because I have asthma" and flashing an inhaler or prescription copy at them. Almost none of the exemptions are in any way embarrassing. I'm not embarrassed about having asthma, it's just a fact that I do. The mental health related exemptions are more difficult, but as long as "for mental health reasons" was accepted that's fine by me.

I’m not sure the lanyards are a solution. Even with blue badges people mutter, “he doesn’t look disabled” being a common one. With masks there are certainly people who take the line that even with the most solid exemption such people should keep out of shops. Skimming through the logs for my place they’re getting mask-related issues pretty much daily.

I don’t think people should have to be subjected to this over something so flimsy.

 

[trebor79]

The big issue with masks is that they're unproven so we can debate who's exempt and whether or not they should prove it until the cows come home but until there is some good solid evidence a number of people will be questioning the point of masks myself included. When we get silly adverts on radio with someone claiming 'I wear a mask to protect my colleagues' without substantiated evidence then the whole thing is just the government being seen to be doing something again, whether it has any value or not. I do wear one but it is under duress.

Maybe it's time that people who feel this way began concientiously objecting?
I think they are disgustingly unhygienic.

 

[davetheguard]

Apologies, new member posting on a contentious subject(!) but what I really don’t understand is why, if the government really believe masks make a difference, they allowed so many exemptions and (my main point) there is no minimum standard/specification for the mask itself. In London last week I observed everything from see through scarves to full face respirators being used as face coverings, and a particularly high number of valved masks which I believe defeat the object of wearing one in the first place. I don’t want to wear a mask for the reasons repeatedly stated by others, but I’d be a lot more willing to do so if a standard mask was adopted, proven to work and the public were given proper guidance as to their correct use. As it is, we’re expected to wear a face covering simply because we’ve been told to, and whilst I (generally) comply I completely understand why others don’t.

I find myself agreeing with virtually all of this. Welcome to the forum by the way!

 

[Mag_seven]

The big issue with masks is that they're unproven so we can debate who's exempt and whether or not they should prove it until the cows come home but until there is some good solid evidence a number of people will be questioning the point of masks myself included.

Yes I know but it looks as though the scientific/medical community seem not to be interested in providing any evidence that they work. They seem to have completely capitulated to the terrified brigade who seem to think you will become infected if you so much as pass a person in the street who is not wearing a mask.

 

[Huntergreed]

What I want to know is, now this mandation is around 3 months old, why are there STILL staff asking people endlessly for 'exemption certificates', 'exemption cards' or 'doctor's letters', it's just not right at all and those who have a genuine exemption should not be facing this type of treatment.

 

[STINT47]

How do I prove to the security guard at Sainsbury's or another shop that I'm exempt due to mental health issues and how do you ensure that the information is confidential?

I could be wrong but I don't believe most security guards or shop staff are a trained phydcologist, or that they have a private room where they can confidentiality explore my medical issues and make an accurate diagnosis.

You could say bring proof to the store. I'm on ESA and did the work capability assessment to get this. I could bring my letter and medical reports but these reference my ability to work and do day to day activities, not my ability to wear a mask. So back to security needing to be a phydcologist.

Even if I do show the letters or disclose the information how is this done confidentially. I don't want to have a conversation in front of half a dozen other people or to have to show letters/reports to straff. My medical history is sensitive to me and theres a reason why the letters say private and confidential on them.

It's also not acceptable in my view to say wait outside and we will serve you at the door. In most shops I want to browse the items on sale. If you deny me this I would argue that it breaks equality legislation.

What a nightmare.

 

[43066]

Was on a Heathrow to Glasgow flight last night and a woman in the row in front of me was obviously not having a good time of it.. she made sure to tell the steward that she couldn't wear a mask. From my perspective it looked like she was on the verge of a panic attack. Wasn't at all helpful when the BA steward asked if she was in possession of an 'exemption card', whatever one of those is. Of course she wasn't..they don't exist.

I've no qualms wearing a mask, and I'll continue to wear them as I'm comfortable in knowing there's a general upside in wearing one in the current climate - but to watch people who obviously can't wear them get singled out is pretty rotten.

Sadly, from my observation, there has been something of a change in approach over the last few days.

I was challenged this morning about my lack of a covering by revenue enforcement as I entered a tube station. I explained that I’m exempt and was (rudely) instructed to produce an “exemption certificate”. I politely explained that there is no need to produce anything, and asked if the officer questioning me had read the relevant legislation and guidance. This was met with a grunt but, wanting to avoid a standoff, I showed them the downloaded exemption screen saver I have saved on my phone.

Needless to say I profoundly disagree with this approach, and it is based on a misunderstanding of the legislation, but I would urge any exempt forum members to download something similar, or obtain a lanyard, to avoid any unpleasantness.

 

[AndyY]

I have commented a couple times in the past. In East Asia (e.g. South Korea, Vietnam, Japan, Hong Kong, Thailand), they are much more commonly worn. In those countries, people tend live in much closer proximity but the virus is much under control compared to UK.

I did a cursory search on the internet, and it is not difficult to find articles which claim that masks are useful, e.g. https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/4...erts say the,people wearing masks, the better.

It is common sense that if you are coughing, droplets can be caught by face coverings.

The only argument objectors were able to come up with when I brought up East Asian countries: Correlation does not imply causation.
To be very honest, I am getting an impression that people in Western countries have a superiority complex and refuse to accept that non Western countries are doing things better.

So if face covering is not the reason, why are things under better control in East Asia?

 

[43066]

To be very honest, I am getting an impression that people in Western countries have a superiority complex and refuse to accept that non Western countries are doing things better.

So if face covering is not the reason, why are things under better control in East Asia?

Many East Asian countries have other extremely draconian measures in place, in addition to face coverings. These measures go way beyond anything that would be considered acceptable in a liberal western democracy, and indeed many of these regimes resemble would we would consider to be “police states”.

I completely reject the suggestion that this is “doing things better”, in any way shape or form!

EDIT: to give a flavour, in Thailand you could face the death penalty for drug smuggling, and being overheard “criticising the monarchy” could lead to a prison sentence. That’s not the kind of society I would wish to live in.

 

[nlogax]

Needless to say I profoundly disagree with this approach, and it is based on a misunderstanding of the legislation, but I would urge any exempt forum members to download something similar, or obtain a lanyard, to avoid any unpleasantness.

Yep, completely agree that it's best to have something on you in case questioning occurs, but just keeping it on your person / in your pocket / on your phone. The fact that it's come to this is a pretty depressing state of affairs. Dearly wish I could swear here!

 

[MikeWM]

What I want to know is, now this mandation is around 3 months old, why are there STILL staff asking people endlessly for 'exemption certificates', 'exemption cards' or 'doctor's letters', it's just not right at all and those who have a genuine exemption should not be facing this type of treatment.

The mentality appears to be that if you just say 'I'm exempt' you might be trying it on, but if you've gone to the 'effort' of printing out a card to that effect then you're probably not.

I can't say that makes a lot of sense to me, but I'm seeing it enough that I'm fairly sure that's what is happening.

 

[Essan]

The problem with exempt people not wearing masks is that the majority of people who refuse to wear them are not exempt at all. Putting shop staff in a very difficult position. Any anger over treatment should be aimed at those ASSes, not the staff.

Edit: and, of course, just because you are technically exempt does not mean you cannnot/should not wear a mask - especially when it's only for a few minutes.

I have no problem with wearing a mask for a few minutes a day whilst doing my daily food shop. I am dreading tomorrow when (in theory, at least) I am supposed to wear one all day long in my own premises. I am quite bemused though by the number of people who come into my antique centre (almost all wearing masks, albeit not always correctly fitting) just for a quite unnecessary, lengthy, browse to pass the time (and a chat with the friend(s)). Clearly a lot of people are quite happy to wear them!

 

[MikeWM]

It is common sense that if you are coughing, droplets can be caught by face coverings.

Yes, but what happens next? The droplets evaporate, and the next time you cough the viruses that were caught in those drops pass straight through the mask at super velocity. They don't vanish when the droplets evaporate, and they're too small to be caught by the mask, so where do you think they go?

Far better advice in my opinion is what we've done for decades - catch sneezes and coughs in a tissue, and dispose of it in a sensible way as quickly as possible.

The only argument objectors were able to come up with when I brought up East Asian countries: Correlation does not imply causation.

Which is true. Otherwise those opposed to masks would have a large number of correlations to back up their opinion too - the UK, Ireland, France, Spain, California, Hawaii, Argentina, Peru, to name but a few. Since masks were mandated in all those places things have got a lot worse...

 

[trebor79]

How do I prove to the security guard at Sainsbury's or another shop that I'm exempt due to mental health issues and how do you ensure that the information is confidential?

I could be wrong but I don't believe most security guards or shop staff are a trained phydcologist, or that they have a private room where they can confidentiality explore my medical issues and make an accurate diagnosis.

You could say bring proof to the store. I'm on ESA and did the work capability assessment to get this. I could bring my letter and medical reports but these reference my ability to work and do day to day activities, not my ability to wear a mask. So back to security needing to be a phydcologist.

Even if I do show the letters or disclose the information how is this done confidentially. I don't want to have a conversation in front of half a dozen other people or to have to show letters/reports to straff. My medical history is sensitive to me and theres a reason why the letters say private and confidential on them.

It's also not acceptable in my view to say wait outside and we will serve you at the door. In most shops I want to browse the items on sale. If you deny me this I would argue that it breaks equality legislation.

What a nightmare.

All you need to say is "I am exempt as I can't wear them, unfortunately" and that is the end of the matter.
If they persist then it's time to ask to speak to their manager.

I would urge any exempt forum members to download something similar, or obtain a lanyard, to avoid any unpleasantness.

I would urge people not to do that, as it normalises an expectation that we should have to provide some sort of written evidence, which the law states categorically is not required.
The people making these ridiculous demands need to realise that they are wrong. Normalising it will not help them to get to that realisation.

The problem with exempt people not wearing masks is that the majority of people who refuse to wear them are not exempt at all. Putting shop staff in a very difficult position. Any anger over treatment should be aimed at those ASSes, not the staff.

Edit: and, of course, just because you are technically exempt does not mean you cannnot/should not wear a mask - especially when it's only for a few minutes.

What if you have a genuine belief that damp bits of cloth over ones face is unhygienic and puts the wearer and those around them at risk of infection (whether covid or something else)?
I would also argue that "just for a few minutes" is pointless virtue signalling given you need 15 minutes of close contact to pass it on, if you're even infectious in the first place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What if you have a genuine belief that damp bits of cloth over ones face is unhygienic and puts the wearer and those around them at risk of infection (whether covid or something else)?

If you disagree with masks, you wear one or you don't patronise establishments where they are required. The Government has made the decision.