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UK face coverings discussion

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43066

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The problem with exempt people not wearing masks is that the majority of people who refuse to wear them are not exempt at all. Putting shop staff in a very difficult position. Any anger over treatment should be aimed at those ASSes, not the staff.

The problem isn’t with exempt people not wearing coverings (as they are perfectly entitled not to), it’s with this ridiculous requirement having being introduced at all. It is very obviously making little to no difference given the current rise in cases. It is causing a divide and causing a lot of people, including some of society’s most vulnerable members, to be marginalised, and potentially criminalised.

Shop staff (and most railway staff) are not police officers, and should not be “enforcing” this at all. The only people who should be are the police and revenue staff. As my experience this morning showed, some enforcement agents believe they have carte Blanche to make up their own rules.

While the revenue officers were bothering me, many people walked past wearing masks incorrectly.

ASININE is the word I’d use to describe it.

I would urge people not to do that, as it normalises an expectation that we should have to provide some sort of written evidence, which the law states categorically is not required.
The people making these ridiculous demands need to realise that they are wrong. Normalising it will not help them to get to that realisation.

I 100% agree with the sentiment. Unfortunately the reality is rather different when you have somewhere you need to be and you’re confronted by revenue enforcement officers, who are making up their own rules, and will refuse travel to those who do not comply with their demands.
 
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87electric

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I travelled all around East Anglia yesterday with no mask. The compliance of masks was very, very high as well. My sunflower lanyard was on display at all times and I was never confronted at all. You need to be a very confidant person to wear one as the stares and body language of others intimidates you. Is it that they do not believe me and that because they comply then I must (regardless of my personal health situation)?
If this is how people are feeling then they need to take a long hard look at themselves.
Cressida Dick, and her philosophy of shaming the public, has proved effective. This is pure evil.
As businesses crumble around us all, so it seems has compassion and empathy for fellow humans.
It all resembles a black & white movie with witch hunts and torches through ignorance and FEAR.
 

trebor79

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If you disagree with masks, you wear one or you don't patronise establishments where they are required. The Government has made the decision.
Bit difficult when they are required everywhere. Food, clothes, stuff to look after the house. All pretty essential.
I am avoiding cultural things like museums etc for this very reason.
For now I rely upon my exemption. If they mandate use outdoors I will openly not comply.
 

Essan

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What if you have a genuine belief that damp bits of cloth over ones face is unhygienic and puts the wearer and those around them at risk of infection (whether covid or something else)?

I would suggest such people avoid cold climates and especially never go hillwalking or ski-ing in winter (or, indeed, to any hot dusty environment in summer) ;) They would also be advised that, as well as being a climber or a cowboy, bank robbery and holding up stagecoaches are also not recommended occupations :D

But as I said, the problem isn't with people who have a genuine reason for not wearing masks. It's the (majority IMO) who do not do so because they are ASSes (Arrogant, Selfish, Stupid); who don't think the rules apply to them and don't give a toss about anyone else. The ones who are directly responsible for this and all further restrictions.
 

island

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I would urge people not to do that, as it normalises an expectation that we should have to provide some sort of written evidence, which the law states categorically is not required.
”The law” does not state any such thing.

What if you have a genuine belief that damp bits of cloth over ones face is unhygienic and puts the wearer and those around them at risk of infection (whether covid or something else)?
You’re welcome to that opinion but it is not one of the listed excuses in legislation for not wearing a face covering, and you risk being fined or prosecuted if you attempt to rely upon it. If you feel it should be a listed excuse I would suggest writing to your MP.
 

43066

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But as I said, the problem isn't with people who have a genuine reason for not wearing masks. It's the (majority IMO) who do not do so because they are ASSes (Arrogant, Selfish, Stupid); who don't think the rules apply to them and don't give a toss about anyone else. The ones who are directly responsible for this and all further restrictions.

I’m afraid your opinion is irrelevant when you are not in any position to judge who is exempt and who isn’t.

The fact these rules self evidently aren’t making the blindest bit of difference doesn’t bother you?! I’d suggest that those who are not exempt and are choosing not to wear coverings aren’t being selfish at all. They’re simply not mindlessly following nonsensical rules.

I have far more respect for someone taking that decision, on a thinking basis, than someone wearing a face covering (in many cases incorrectly!) simply because they wish to virtue signal/follow orders.

”The law” does not state any such thing.

I think you’ll find that, if you read the legislation and accompanying guidance, it categorically does.
 

trebor79

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You’re welcome to that opinion but it is not one of the listed excuses in legislation for not wearing a face covering, and you risk being fined or prosecuted if you attempt to rely upon it. If you feel it should be a listed excuse I would suggest writing to your MP.
The list of reasonable excuses in the legislation is not exhaustive, nor is it intended to be.
I did write to my MP and received no response.
If I fail to persuade a police officer of my reasonable excuse, perhaps I shall have to have a day in court.

But as I said, the problem isn't with people who have a genuine reason for not wearing masks. It's the (majority IMO) who do not do so because they are ASSes (Arrogant, Selfish, Stupid); who don't think the rules apply to them and don't give a toss about anyone else. The ones who are directly responsible for this and all further restrictions.
So a few people not wearing masks (but not the genuinely exempt ones, in your opinion) are responsible for this mess.
Right.
There was me thinking that the abject failure of the the government to manage public expectations, come up with a coherent strategy that the stick to, to deploy a "world class" tracing app, to manage testing properly and fail to give measures such as the rule of 6 a chance.to work before yet another knee jerk might have something to do with it.
Silly me. If only I'd worn a filthy but of cloth over my face. :rolleyes:
 

bramling

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I would suggest such people avoid cold climates and especially never go hillwalking or ski-ing in winter (or, indeed, to any hot dusty environment in summer) ;) They would also be advised that, as well as being a climber or a cowboy, bank robbery and holding up stagecoaches are also not recommended occupations :D

But as I said, the problem isn't with people who have a genuine reason for not wearing masks. It's the (majority IMO) who do not do so because they are ASSes (Arrogant, Selfish, Stupid); who don't think the rules apply to them and don't give a toss about anyone else. The ones who are directly responsible for this and all further restrictions.

The above sums up perfectly why things are unpleasant, with a meme thrown in, presumably in the absence of any evidence that masks actually are helpful.
 

jtuk

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That myth about there being no studies is oft repeated. Yet where a study has been conducted - in Jena - and shown a marked reduction in transmission in the community, it gets ignored or dismissed. Apparently it’s not a randomised control trial, or its observational, so doesn't really count.

Ah, Jena. You wonder why people say it doesn't count, let's look at why and quote https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/

A German study claimed that the introduction of compulsory masks in German cities had led to a decrease in infections. But the data does not support this: in some cities there was no change, in others a decrease, in others an increase in infections (see graph below). The city of Jena was an ‘exception’ only because it simultaneously introduced the strictest quarantine rules in Germany, but the study did not mention this.

Of course you can find a study where they show a marked reduction - if you ignore the rest of it where it didn't and exclude other external factors which might have something to do with it.
 

DB

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Yep, completely agree that it's best to have something on you in case questioning occurs, but just keeping it on your person / in your pocket / on your phone. The fact that it's come to this is a pretty depressing state of affairs. Dearly wish I could swear here!

I'm going to print out the government guidance to show them - the guidance which makes it clear that they should not be asking for proof of exemption.
 

trebor79

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I'm going to print out the government guidance to show them - the guidance which makes it clear that they should not be asking for proof of exemption.
Yes, that's a better idea than wearing a lanyard or printing out some fictional exemption certificate.
 

DB

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The problem with exempt people not wearing masks is that the majority of people who refuse to wear them are not exempt at all. Putting shop staff in a very difficult position. Any anger over treatment should be aimed at those ASSes, not the staff.

Shops are not required to enforce it - they don't need to ask at all, and if they do then they should not be asking for proof - read the government guidance. If staff are ending up in a difficult position it's the fault of them or their employer.
 

Yew

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I would suggest such people avoid cold climates and especially never go hillwalking or ski-ing in winter (or, indeed, to any hot dusty environment in summer) ;) They would also be advised that, as well as being a climber or a cowboy, bank robbery and holding up stagecoaches are also not recommended occupations :D

But as I said, the problem isn't with people who have a genuine reason for not wearing masks. It's the (majority IMO) who do not do so because they are ASSes (Arrogant, Selfish, Stupid); who don't think the rules apply to them and don't give a toss about anyone else. The ones who are directly responsible for this and all further restrictions.
No, its because the restrictions do nothing but make the deluded feel like they're helping and making a sacrifice, it's the equivalent of self flagellation.
 

43066

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I'm going to print out the government guidance to show them - the guidance which makes it clear that they should not be asking for proof of exemption.
Yes, that's a better idea than wearing a lanyard or printing out some fictional exemption certificate.

Fully agreed.

Unfortunately some of the people charged with enforcing these measures respond with grunts and take a “computer says no” jobsworth approach. Asking them to read and critically analyse a block of text is unlikely to lead to a favourable outcome.

Much easier simply to download an exemption certificate, for the sake of an easy life, which rather highlights the farcical stupidity of the situation.
 

bramling

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No, its because the restrictions do nothing but make the deluded feel like they're helping and making a sacrifice, it's the equivalent of self flagellation.

In the same way that marching off the the supermarket and stocking up on excessive amounts of toilet rolls / pasta / bleach gave some people the false illusion that they had recovered some control of the situation.
 

Scrotnig

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Asda are going to 'crack down' on shoppers without masks:
Supermarket Asda is set to enforce rules on face coverings more strictly across its shops amid the pandemic.

Customers who do not have a covering when they enter a store will be offered a pack of disposable masks that they can pay for at the end of their trip.

"We know that safety remains a key priority for our customers," its chief operating officer said.

Face coverings must be worn by customers in shops, supermarkets and shopping centres around the UK.

Those who fail to do so can be fined by the police - up to £100 in England (soon to rise to £200), or £60 in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales.

No mention of exemptions, so I guess exempt people like myself aren't allowed in Asda any more.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Can I now go into a shop and demand to know why a staff member isn't wearing a mask. If they refuse to prove to my satisfaction why they aren't wearing one, can I have them removed from the shop?
 

MikeWM

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Yes, that's a better idea than wearing a lanyard or printing out some fictional exemption certificate.

I've thought about that too, but the problem is that the 'advice' on a website can change. And does, frequently. This specific block of text hasn't changed in a while, but who is to say it won't between you printing it and presenting it? They don't appear to maintain an archive of changes, either.
 

DustyBin

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Here's another observation I made last week which although anecdotal does highlight some of the real world issues around masks.

We visted a restaurant which includes a buffet as part of the experience. As part of their Covid-19 measures they asked that when using the buffet people wore a mask and disposable gloves (the latter provided); all well meaning I'm sure but misguided in my opinion. I watched a family of four put on the gloves and then put ther hands in their pockets to remove their scrunched up masks. They put them on, fidded with them, and procceded to the buffet where they handled the various utensils.... Surely it would be better to simply request that everybody sanitises their hands?

The above is just one example of mask (and glove) misuse but realistically how many people touch their masks and then touch surfaces without having washed or sanitised their hands? I know I do, not deliberately but because it's very diffiicult not to. I'd also love to see a sample of masks randomly collected from members of the public and tested to see what nastys are living on them. These things are being worn for days or weeks which has got to be unheigenic. I'm not sure what the current concsenus is but a few months ago transmission of the virus via hard surfaces was a real concern; unless this has changed I can only see masks increasing this risk, based on what I've witnesed since their introduction.
 

bramling

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Fully agreed.

Unfortunately some of the people charged with enforcing these measures respond with grunts and take a “computer says no” jobsworth approach. Asking them to read and critically analyse a block of text is unlikely to lead to a favourable outcome.

Much easier simply to download an exemption certificate, for the sake of an easy life, which rather highlights the farcical stupidity of the situation.

So by the sound of it revenue are back from furlough, and are now being used for mask operations.

I suppose that would appeal to the type of people who are attracted to revenue.
 

Scrotnig

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Simple, avoid Asda. Rubbish supermarket anyway.
But within days, the Twitter feeds of their rivals will be swamped by people demanding they do the same 'to keep us all safe' and they will inevitably bow to pressure.
 

bramling

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But within days, the Twitter feeds of their rivals will be swamped by people demanding they do the same 'to keep us all safe' and they will inevitably bow to pressure.

Hopefully Tesco’s won’t. They seem to have been consistently the most sensible of the supermarkets, with Waitrose no doubt taking the spot at the other extreme.
 

Huntergreed

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Hopefully Tesco’s won’t. They seem to have been consistently the most sensible of the supermarkets, with Waitrose no doubt taking the spot at the other extreme.
Agreed, Tesco has been the most rational and sensible throughout this. I doubt they will change their stance on masks. I don't think any supermarket should be doing what Asda is now proposing to do and I fully hope it backfires.

Our university accommodation has a system where students are encouraged to report non-mask wearing, due to the fact that it 'isn't safe', and if someone is found 3 times and doesn't have a valid exemption, the police will be notified. It's not great living in a place like this :(
 

Bletchleyite

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Agreed, Tesco has been the most rational and sensible throughout this. I doubt they will change their stance on masks. I don't think any supermarket should be doing what Asda is now proposing to do and I fully hope it backfires.

You might be unsurprised, but I think it's a good idea, as it will ensure that everyone who is not exempt wears or is told to walk.

There is literally no point having unenforceable laws.
 

Baxenden Bank

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But within days, the Twitter feeds of their rivals will be swamped by people demanding they do the same 'to keep us all safe' and they will inevitably bow to pressure.
Hopefully Tesco’s won’t. They seem to have been consistently the most sensible of the supermarkets, with Waitrose no doubt taking the spot at the other extreme.
If people vote with their feet and shop more in Asda, Tesco will notice.
If people vote with their feet and shop more in Tesco, Asda will notice.

Anecdotally, Tesco seem to have made their decision to relax queuing etc earlier than the others, presumably their internal research/polling/focus groups showed them that was best for their business.

It is in the hands (or feet) of the consumer. Make you choices folks (anyone remember Runaround with Mike Reid?).

Grocery retailing is very competitive - unlike many industries. Bus and rail can do what they like (or what the government tells them), as they are on the public sector funding drip.
 

DB

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Simple, avoid Asda. Rubbish supermarket anyway.

Let's hope others don't do the same.

Was in Tesco yesterday and still fine there - no queues or one-way systems, and nobody challenging people without masks.
 

43066

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Can I now go into a shop and demand to know why a staff member isn't wearing a mask. If they refuse to prove to my satisfaction why they aren't wearing one, can I have them removed from the shop?

No, you can’t.

I’d suggest nobody attempts that approach on a train I’m driving, if I walk through to use the John. One of us will certainly be leaving the train, I’ll leave it to you to decide who that might be...

So by the sound of it revenue are back from furlough, and are now being used for mask operations.

I suppose that would appeal to the type of people who are attracted to revenue.

Good to know they’re still gainfully employed! Honestly, the way some of these people address paying customers is utterly disgusting.

As for the kind of the people attracted to doing that job, I was always taught that, if I have nothing nice to say then I should remain silent. So I’ll offer no further comment :).

You might be unsurprised, but I think it's a good idea, as it will ensure that everyone who is not exempt wears or is told to walk.

There is literally no point having unenforceable laws.

We now have a law which manages to be both pointless and unenforceable, at the same time. Well done Boris!
 

Bletchleyite

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We now have a law which manages to be both pointless and unenforceable, at the same time.

Which is why, if the Government feels the law necessary, a proper exemption process must be implemented.

As for your own position I reiterate that I believe it should be the rule that railway staff in the passenger compartment must comply unless exempt (and if exempt, a visor should be considered), and that I hope this is the law as soon as possible. It really needs simplifying and standardising - if you are in an indoor public place (a place to which the public have access) you must wear, unless exempt for medical reasons[1] and unless you are, at that time, eating or drinking.

And if you would throw a passenger off for simply politely expressing the view that you should be wearing a mask when in their presence (unless you are exempt on one of the medical grounds), a view I wholly agree with, then I would consider you out of order in doing so and would hope your employer would take appropriate action if you did do that. Unless you are going to put in place circumstances so you can ensure you remain 2m away from them at all times, of course, e.g. using the facilities before you allow boarding at the terminus.

FWIW, I am very pleased shop workers will need to wear on the shop floor - I have become thoroughly bored of the gross hypocrisy of them walking round the shop floor, not distancing e.g. leaning over you as you shop to stack shelves, and not wearing anything.

[1] I wouldn't reduce the list; I consider mental health to be a medical reason.
 
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DB

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Which is why, if the Government feels the law necessary, a proper exemption process must be implemented.

But that's impossible, because not all exemptons are specifically medical, and even some of those that are would in some cases require input from specialist medics - and they simply don't have the time to waste on this pointless theatre.
 
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