UK face coverings discussion

[Islineclear3_1]

I really object to the idea of people having to go round with a lanyard. Many people are very reserved about any medical issues they may have, and shouldn’t have to be singled out just to enter a supermarket - especially for a measure which seems to be as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Originally, I did object to wearing a lanyard but you know what, I just don't care now what people think; they can think what they like and it's none of their business. Since wearing a lanyard, hardly anyone takes any notice. So for me at least, wearing a lanyard makes me more inconspicuous than simply not wearing a mask

 

[LAX54]

Maybe it's time that people who feel this way began concientiously objecting?
I think they are disgustingly unhygienic.

If the disposable ones were used correctly, I would say they were OK, but as it must be at least 75% or maybe even 90% (by just people watching), I agree, the blue ones are in reality useless, and maybe create more problems than they solve

 

[43066]

And if they get so wound up that they don't think they can drive safely at that point, they are entirely correct to refuse to do so.

Absolutely.

Willy waving about earnings aside, the earnings are fully justified.

This working in IT thing is knackering.. I could happily mull a change of career

It’s an excellent career choice if you like trains and you want to get away from offices (god only knows how you do it if you don’t want that). But it also takes no prisoners in terms of the focus needed. If you drop a bollock, there’s absolutely nowhere to hide.

It’s not intellectually challenging in the traditional sense. But you need to be “on it” in ways that I simply didn’t, when I used to take a time out, go and sit on the loo, doing a “professional” job where we charged the clients £650+vat per hour for my time.

 

[MikeWM]

Originally, I did object to wearing a lanyard but you know what, I just don't care now what people think; they can think what they like and it's none of their business. Since wearing a lanyard, hardly anyone takes any notice. So for me at least, wearing a lanyard makes me more inconspicuous than simply not wearing a mask

I've started wearing a (home-made) lanyard on trains now, because you don't know if/when you're likely to be challenged and it does seem to make life easier. Of course you shouldn't have to - but as has been pointed out, you're already standing out anyway as a result of not wearing a mask, so it doesn't seem especially problematic to do so if it makes *you* more comfortable.

Everywhere else I just have my phone (with a home-made card stuck to the back of the case) to produce if necessary.

 

[adc82140]

Anyone on a train who causes problems because the driver isn’t wearing a mask really should be finding an alternative way to travel. Having said that, my place is certainly getting complaints coming in about “why are drivers not wearing masks in their cabs?”.

I hope the powers that be are replying that a wall between the cab and the saloon offers significantly more protection than a bit of cloth.

 

[island]

I think you’ll find that, if you read the legislation and accompanying guidance, it categorically does.

Guidance is not law, as this forum is fond of pointing out.

There is nothing in English law that states that a person responsible for a premises is not (or is) permitted to ask a visitor for evidence to support their claim of exemption from wearing a face covering.

Merlin Attractions (operator of a number of the UK’s largest theme parks and attractions including Alton Towers and Thorpe Park) requires such evidence, and has not, to my knowledge, been taken to task over it.

 

[DB]

Guidance is not law, as this forum is fond of pointing out.

There is nothing in English law that states that a person responsible for a premises is not (or is) permitted to ask a visitor for evidence to support their claim of exemption from wearing a face covering.

Merlin Attractions (operator of a number of the UK’s largest theme parks and attractions including Alton Towers and Thorpe Park) requires such evidence, and has not, to my knowledge, been taken to task over it.

Hmm. Any medical data is considered sensitive personal information for data protection purposes. So any company asking for it has to have a clear policy on why they are asking for it and how they are going to ensure that it remains confidential. Could potentially be grounds or a challenge here, as it could strongly be argued that they don't have a sufficiently strong reason to request it, and demanding it in a public place (e.g. in the foyer of a supermarket) does not sufficiently protect confidentiality.

 

[island]

I agree that it would make sense for a proper process to be in place – the theme parks I mentioned give you the option to upload evidence securely online or to provide it at a dedicated office/desk on premises. They have just extended the system they used for “queue skip passes”.

 

[jtuk]

Belgium actually has a strategy:

From 1 October, face masks will only be mandatory in crowded places, as well as on public transport and in cinemas, for example. “It is useless to make masks compulsory anytime, anywhere,” [Belgian PM] Wilmès said, calling on local authorities to comply with the change, and not keep the rule in unnecessary places.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Going into places and "demanding to know why" would come across pretty confrontationally...

I really don't see why people feel obliged to try and take up other people's non-mask wearing themselves. People in positions of authority (train guards/supermarket bouncers) I can understand but don't like, but random members of the public confronting people?

I was asking a rhetorical question in response to the proposals by Asda to get all arsey with any customer not wearing a face-covering - demanding written evidence of an issue which may be deeply personal and/or not actually have documentary support. If it is reasonable for them to question customers (which it is not), I see no reason why it wouldn't be reasonable for a customer to question staff. We're all in this together, the virus does not discriminate between shoppers and staff. No I cannot evidence that latter statement. Politely in both cases, obviously. The ability for people to talk around an isue to discuss the benefits and pitfalls seems somewhat lacking nowadays.

 

[43066]

Guidance is not law, as this forum is fond of pointing out.

Legislation, when read in conjunction with relevant guidance, absolutely *is* the law.

I suspect these comments will be wasted on here, but can I suggest you google the following:

The divine right of kings (BoJo isn’t delivering the goods, over this exact question);

Charles 1st (he somewhat lost his head over this exact question);

Oliver Cromwell (his body was exhumed, and hanged, over this exact question)

Cavaliers v. Roundheads;

Richard Cromwell;

Sovereignty of parliament;

Rump Parliament;

Hansard.

There is nothing in English law that states that a person responsible for a premises is not (or is) permitted to ask a visitor for evidence to support their claim of exemption from wearing a face covering.

The equalities act might trouble you somewhat.

 

[greyman42]

So from Thursday if you go to a restaurant:-
You wear a mask to walk through the door
You take it off when sat down
You put it on if you go to the toilet
You take it off when you sit back down
You put it on again if you pay at the counter
You take it off when you exit.

And every time you remove the mask you stuff it in your pocket.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

How do I prove to the security guard at Sainsbury's or another shop that I'm exempt due to mental health issues and how do you ensure that the information is confidential?

I could be wrong but I don't believe most security guards or shop staff are a trained phydcologist, or that they have a private room where they can confidentiality explore my medical issues and make an accurate diagnosis.

You could say bring proof to the store. I'm on ESA and did the work capability assessment to get this. I could bring my letter and medical reports but these reference my ability to work and do day to day activities, not my ability to wear a mask. So back to security needing to be a phydcologist.

Even if I do show the letters or disclose the information how is this done confidentially. I don't want to have a conversation in front of half a dozen other people or to have to show letters/reports to straff. My medical history is sensitive to me and theres a reason why the letters say private and confidential on them.

It's also not acceptable in my view to say wait outside and we will serve you at the door. In most shops I want to browse the items on sale. If you deny me this I would argue that it breaks equality legislation.

What a nightmare.

Wear the Sunflower lanyard. It costs next to nothing to purchase. That is your "exemption card"

And to reiterate, you do not need to show evidence/proof that you are exempt. And any rent-a-gob at the shop door has no power to ask

 

[greyman42]

Asda are going to 'crack down' on shoppers without masks:

Asda to crack down on shoppers without face masks

Its staff will soon offer customers disposable face masks to be paid for at the end of their trip.

www.bbc.co.uk

No mention of exemptions, so I guess exempt people like myself aren't allowed in Asda any more.

Asda have not actually said that they will refuse entry to anyone not wearing a mask.

 

[adc82140]

This from the BBC tells me all I need to know about this

Asda to crack down on shoppers without face masks

Its staff will soon offer customers disposable face masks to be paid for at the end of their trip.

www.bbc.co.uk

Customers who do not have a covering when they enter a store will be offered a pack of disposable masks that they can pay for at the end of their trip.

It's low. Very low. If they cared that much they'd be giving them out for nothing like TK Maxxx for example.

 

[greyman42]

Quite possibly because if as a keyboard warrior you offend someone you can't be in receipt of a thump.

Or worse, so best keep your opinions to yourself.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Asda are going to 'crack down' on shoppers without masks:

Asda to crack down on shoppers without face masks

Its staff will soon offer customers disposable face masks to be paid for at the end of their trip.

www.bbc.co.uk

No mention of exemptions, so I guess exempt people like myself aren't allowed in Asda any more.

And by the same token; given yesterday's announcement by the Government, ASDA are going to "crack down" on staff without masks and if they turn up to work without one, a pack of disposable masks will be offered to them and the cost deducted from their wages...

 

[Huntergreed]

And by the same token; given yesterday's announcement by the Government, ASDA are going to "crack down" on staff without masks and if they turn up to work without one, a pack of disposable masks will be offered to them and the cost deducted from their wages...

Seriously???

If they refuse to take it?

This is utterly ridiculous.

All this over something that might not even work

 

[WM Bus]

Asda are going to 'crack down' on shoppers without masks:

Asda to crack down on shoppers without face masks

Its staff will soon offer customers disposable face masks to be paid for at the end of their trip.

www.bbc.co.uk

No mention of exemptions, so I guess exempt people like myself aren't allowed in Asda any more.

I wouldn't have thought they can refuse people who are exempt entry.
Would that that be in breach of the equality act?
Refusing entry to someone who can't wear a mask due to disability related reasons?

 

[Huntergreed]

I wouldn't have thought they can refuse people who are exempt entry.
Would that that be in breach of the equality act?
Refusing entry to someone who can't wear a mask due to disability related reasons?

I would certainly assume it would be

 

[43066]

I wouldn't have thought they can refuse people who are exempt entry.
Would that that be in breach of the equality act?
Refusing entry to someone who can't wear a mask due to disability related reasons?

I would certainly assume it would be

The mistake you’re both making is trying to apply any degree of intelligence, or critical thinking, to the current situation.

Give it up - it only drives you crazy.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

I did actually say 'sorry do you mean can I say your ticket !' And he said yes...I'm still in shock lol

In the interests of communication had this today

'Dear xxxx
Thank you for responding with your journey information. I would like to express my sincere apologies that you experienced this and please rest assured this will be investigated internally. Yours sincerely

Customer Relations Duty Manager'


In addition to the standard spiel about Gdpr meaning they can't say what will/may happen to staff member

 

[DB]

In the interests of communication had this today

'Dear xxxx
Thank you for responding with your journey information. I would like to express my sincere apologies that you experienced this and please rest assured this will be investigated internally. Yours sincerely

Customer Relations Duty Manager'


In addition to the standard spiel about Gdpr meaning they can't say what will/may happen to staff member

A typical cut and paste response!

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Well I thought that but it was added after the normal spiel!! Like someone had a actually looked at it !

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Seriously???

If they refuse to take it?

This is utterly ridiculous.

All this over something that might not even work

I made a sarcastic comment - hence the emoji

Of course the whole thing is ridiculous. Thankfully I don't shop in ASDA

 

[43066]

Thankfully I don't shop in ASDA

Me neither. God forbid such an appalling state of affairs would ever exist.

If your pre wine cheese hasn’t come from Waitrose, or more preferably Fortnums, you really haven’t lived...

 

[AndyY]

Many East Asian countries have other extremely draconian measures in place, in addition to face coverings. These measures go way beyond anything that would be considered acceptable in a liberal western democracy, and indeed many of these regimes resemble would we would consider to be “police states”.

I completely reject the suggestion that this is “doing things better”, in any way shape or form!

I can understand why you might think of Singapore, Thailand in a less than positive light. But Japan, South Korea, Taiwan = “police states”? What are you smoking?

Well, they are doing better in terms of controlling the spread. No local transmission in China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Thailand, 29 deaths so far in Singapore, while it is >40000 in UK and >200000 in US.

So my question again: Why is the virus far less prevalent in Taiwan, which is not a police state? If this is not because of masks, perhaps the reason is because they care more about their fellow citizens and less about their "freedom" (without responsibility)? Either way, it does not portrait "liberal western democracies" in a good light ...

Yes, but what happens next? The droplets evaporate, and the next time you cough the viruses that were caught in those drops pass straight through the mask at super velocity. They don't vanish when the droplets evaporate, and they're too small to be caught by the mask, so where do you think they go?

Your source? Or is this just what you believe?
The droplet as a whole does not evaporate. The virus is heavier than air and does not float in the air. Only condition where this happens is in aerosols (source: https://www.tmc.edu/news/2020/07/can-the-coronavirus-spread-through-the-air/).

 

[LAX54]

And every time you remove the mask you stuff it in your pocket.

When by rights, it should (if disposable variety) go in the bin each time

on the plus side, 'scientists' are saying that catching the bug from a hard surface is now it seems very very minimal ! (cardboard boxes had already been dismissed a couple of months ago)

 

[43066]

But Japan, South Korea, Taiwan = “police states”? What are you smoking?

Japan? One of the world’s most oppressively homogeneous societies (which retains the death penalty). Taiwan is, to all intents and purposes, part of China these days, unless I’m much mistaken?! South Korea imposes conscription upon young/military age males.

These are not exactly benign, benevolent, democracies, unless you’re smoking something rather more potent than I am?!

Well, they are doing better in terms of controlling the spread. No local transmission in China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Thailand, 29 deaths so far in Singapore, while it is >40000 in UK and >200000 in US.

China (executes more people than any other country), Thailand (imposes execution for drug smuggling), Singapore (imposes judicial caning for dropping chewing gum and other offences).

Do you really aspire to live in these kinds of societies?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Me neither. God forbid such an appalling state of affairs would ever exist.

If your pre wine cheese hasn’t come from Waitrose, or more preferably Fortnums, you really haven’t lived...

Most of my shopping is from Aldi or Lidl

But my wine and cheese does come from further afield...