Uncomfortable trains of old

[Journeyman]

There seems to be a common view these days that modern trains are all gruesomely uncomfortable, and all older trains provided superior comfort. However, I've never been convinced that this is the case. Plenty of older trains provided grim travel experiences.

I was just looking at some photos and reading some descriptions of the Southern's 2-HAL units of 1939. Compared to the cozy and inviting BILs of a few years earlier, they had decidedly miserable and meanly appointed interiors. The seats in third class were very upright and had very thin cushions - easily the ironing boards of their day. I don't think many trains before or since were quite that bad.

I'm sure there's plenty of other examples of nasty, uncomfortable trains in the past - any ideas?

 

[randyrippley]

In reality the horsehair and wire spring squabs in mk1 compartment stock were pretty grim.
Smelly, dusty, broken springs, prickly and underseat heating which singed your backside

 

[Journeyman]

In reality the horsehair and wire spring squabs in mk1 compartment stock were pretty grim.
Smelly, dusty, broken springs, prickly and underseat heating which singed your backside

Everyone seems to think they were wonderful, but I'm inclined to agree with you - many vehicles of that era were gloomy, dirty and allowed to get into really bad condition. Never a great experience.

 

[Iskra]

Anything with wooden seats.

I suppose there’s not to much haste to preserve the uncomfortable stuff.

Excuse the bizarre emojis that my phone has added and I can’t remove!

 

[30907]

I was just looking at some photos and reading some descriptions of the Southern's 2-HAL units of 1939. Compared to the cozy and inviting BILs of a few years earlier, they had decidedly miserable and meanly appointed interiors. The seats in third class were very upright and had very thin cushions - easily the ironing boards of their day. I don't think many trains before or since were quite that bad.

I'm sure there's plenty of other examples of nasty, uncomfortable trains in the past - any ideas?

The HALs were followed by the first Bulleid 4-SUBs, which squeezed 11 compartments into the trailers. And the Tyneside 2-EPBs had extra deep seats (front to back) so also minimal legroom.

 

[yorksrob]

Some of the 1st gen mechanical DMU's felt fairly austere. One I caught between Redhill and Tonbridge in the 90's with bus seats fitted that description.

 

[D1537]

The ride on a 304 was certainly entertaining. Staying in your seat was a test of agility sometimes, and anything like reading a book was impossible. They should have made it into a round on "It's A Knockout".

 

[Cowley]

Excuse the bizarre emojis that my phone has added and I can’t remove!

That’s funny, I did exactly the same a few weeks ago because those emojis are really easy to hit by mistake on an iPhone and they suddenly post themselves before you realise what you’ve done.
Click on ‘More Options’, scroll down and press Delete’ next to the emojis if you want to remove them (unless you really care about us and would rather leave them...)

 

[Iskra]

That’s funny, I did exactly the same a few weeks ago because those emojis are really easy to hit by mistake on an iPhone and they suddenly post themselves before you realise what you’ve done.
Click on ‘More Options’, scroll down and press Delete’ next to the emojis if you want to remove them (unless you really care about us and would rather leave them...)

Haha, thanks for your help! Never had that problem before!

 

[Cowley]

Haha, thanks for your help! Never had that problem before!

I sent a load of those starry eyed love emojis to my best friend the other day by mistake.
The lockdown couldn’t come soon enough after that particular modern technology disaster...

Edit - I shall now moderate myself...

Back on topic please!

 

[Journeyman]

The HALs were followed by the first Bulleid 4-SUBs, which squeezed 11 compartments into the trailers. And the Tyneside 2-EPBs had extra deep seats (front to back) so also minimal legroom.

Those early SUBs had the HALs hard seats, and looked extremely grim indeed.

 

[Journeyman]

Some of the 1st gen mechanical DMU's felt fairly austere. One I caught between Redhill and Tonbridge in the 90's with bus seats fitted that description.

I'm guessing that was a 117. Seats were quite low-backed but I always found them reasonably comfortable. The first generation DMUs were never great, though - they always felt like bits were going to fall off.

 

[Journeyman]

Anything with wooden seats.

What were the last wooden seated trains to operate in this country? I've only ever seen them on narrow gauge heritage railways.

 

[delt1c]

DMBS on a 105. Fittings rattling themselves to bits, seats always looked grunt, engine fumes and a ride that made a pacer on poor track seem like luxury, crossing point work you bounced so much you thought you would hit the ceiling

 

[Ashley Hill]

The old Waterloo and City stock could throw you around a bit I seem to remember.
To be fair though I'd rather have the old trains than any of this modern uninspiring glass and plastic stuff of today. Even being thrown around in a pacer on jointed track is beginning to seem nostalgic.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm guessing that was a 117. Seats were quite low-backed but I always found them reasonably comfortable. The first generation DMUs were never great, though - they always felt like bits were going to fall off.

It wasn't a 117 because it wasn't high density layout.

Having been on a few on preserved railways, some 1st gen DMU's are better than others, and some, like the Calder Valley ones are quite decent. But I have to admit, my first impression that day was "this is supposed to be better than a thumper how exactly ?"

 

[Iskra]

What were the last wooden seated trains to operate in this country? I've only ever seen them on narrow gauge heritage railways.

The Middleton Railway in Leeds has some although they are custom made. Luckily, it's only a short journey!

On the national network, I'm guessing you'd be looking at old Tube stock or going back 100 years.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

What were the last wooden seated trains to operate in this country? I've only ever seen them on narrow gauge heritage railways.

Internal NCB services for miners , - a good example being the shuttle from Pontardulais to Graig Merthyr Colliery. Well into the 1970's. Steam hauled by a Barclay 0-4-0 Saddle tank for good measure.

 

[Taunton]

What were the last wooden seated trains to operate in this country? I've only ever seen them on narrow gauge heritage railways.

The Liverpool Overhead Railway still had them until it closed down in 1956

https://www.google.com/search?q=liverpool+overhead+railway+interior+photograph&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=iZstKn2VAw3bKM%3A%2CsgmMx2Ul6ouwYM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kR3RE0tGqAQCw6tT32GLQgLh-5qiQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiYnNuWn8ToAhVhu3EKHbU1Al0Q9QEwAnoECAoQFQ#imgrc=iZstKn2VAw3bKM:

Similar varnished wooden seats were still in extensive use in the pre-WW2 trains on the Berlin S-Bahn into the 1990s.

 

[Whistler40145]

The ride on a 304 was certainly entertaining. Staying in your seat was a test of agility sometimes, and anything like reading a book was impossible. They should have made it into a round on "It's A Knockout".

I not sure if Class 305s were much better

 

[D1537]

I not sure if Class 305s were much better

I don't think they were, however the 304s on WCML services generally got up to some much higher speeds, where their "ride" was even more exaggerated!

 

[Whistler40145]

I don't think they were, however the 304s on WCML services generally got up to some much higher speeds, where their "ride" was even more exaggerated!

Extremely lively ride...hold on tight

 

[30907]

It wasn't a 117 because it wasn't high density layout.

WR acquired redundant Metro-Cammell units (101?) which would have had (3+2?) bus-type seating.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It wasn't a 117 because it wasn't high density layout.

Having been on a few on preserved railways, some 1st gen DMU's are better than others, and some, like the Calder Valley ones are quite decent. But I have to admit, my first impression that day was "this is supposed to be better than a thumper how exactly ?"

It would have been a 101; some were moved to Reading towards the end of DMU operation on the Reading routes and I do recall them as having the harder bench like seats.

The 117s, and 119s, in contrast, were very comfortable.

WR acquired redundant Metro-Cammell units (101?) which would have had (3+2?) bus-type seating.

Yes, it would have been.

 

[yorksrob]

WR acquired redundant Metro-Cammell units (101?) which would have had (3+2?) bus-type seating.

It would have been a 101; some were moved to Reading towards the end of DMU operation on the Reading routes and I do recall them as having the harder bench like seats.

The 117s, and 119s, in contrast, were very comfortable.

Yes, it would have been.

I'm not sure if I've been on a 117 or 119, but they probably would have been more to my taste.

 

[Taunton]

I don't think they were, however the 304s on WCML services generally got up to some much higher speeds, where their "ride" was even more exaggerated!

Someone actually wrote on here a while ago that the reason the 304s had such a poor reputation for ride but not the seemingly similar Liverpool Street units was a difference in maintenance practices on the suspension; a GE engineer who found what Longsight were doing to them was very critical of it. The GE units in fact were extensively used on outer suburban runs that had long non-stop segments at maximum speed, such as peak and relief services to Clacton, whereas the LM units did little work that was not all stations stopping.

 

[Revaulx]

The ride on a 304 was certainly entertaining. Staying in your seat was a test of agility sometimes, and anything like reading a book was impossible. They should have made it into a round on "It's A Knockout".

The 304s were not well received when they replaced the DC units on the Manchester-Altrincham Line in 1971. Ride and acceleration were noticeably worse, and the first batch in particular felt no more modern than the 40 year old trains they were replacing. The later batches were better with their larger windows and having ditched the non-corridor compartments, but the ride was still awful. Without the bouncy seats it would have been unbearable.

 

[D1537]

Someone actually wrote on here a while ago that the reason the 304s had such a poor reputation for ride but not the seemingly similar Liverpool Street units was a difference in maintenance practices on the suspension; a GE engineer who found what Longsight were doing to them was very critical of it. The GE units in fact were extensively used on outer suburban runs that had long non-stop segments at maximum speed, such as peak and relief services to Clacton, whereas the LM units did little work that was not all stations stopping.

I am going from my experience of them on the Trent Valley services, where you could certainly get up to a decent speed between Rugby-Nuneaton, Lichfield-Rugeley, and Rugeley-Stafford. The worst bit of track I found for it was between Alderley Edge and Crewe, especially on those services that didn't stop at the intermediate stations.

 

[Merle Haggard]

One of the interesting features of AM4s was the harmonic frequency of every spring between the rail and the top of the seat cushion. Every one must have been either the same or an integer factor, and there was also a co-incidence with the time duration between railjoints.
That might sound like gobbledegook, but the effect was that, if you were a passenger and the AM4 was travelling on jointed track with slightly dipped joints at about 60 mph (e.g. Piccadilly to Stockport) you would find yourself bouncing up and down with a greater and greater amplitude as every spring magnified the imperfections. You would lift off the seat. Quite a design feat.
An AM4 sometimes 'escaped' south and was coupled to an AM10 on an eight-car working. The acceleration of the '4 was poorer than the '10 but the '10 very easily broke into wheelspin and lost acceleration totally. Similarly, the '10s disc brakes made its braking much sharper down to about 15mph (if they didn't pick up) but then faded; just at that speed and lower. the '4s tread brakes were at their most effective. If one was riding in either of the coupled driving cars the amount of jerks and surges when slowing down or speeding up was quite amazing, as was the sound of drawbar springs under extreme tension. Particularly good on a damp rail.

 

[John Webb]

What were the last wooden seated trains to operate in this country? I've only ever seen them on narrow gauge heritage railways.

The Middleton Railway in Leeds has some although they are custom made. Luckily, it's only a short journey!

On the national network, I'm guessing you'd be looking at old Tube stock or going back 100 years.

Wooden seats were still in use on the line from North Woolwich - Stratford Low Level - Palace Gates in the late 1950s/early 1960s when a few 'Quad-art' sets were still in use, similar to that preserved on the North Norfolk Railway. They were replaced by various LNER and BR suburban coaches until around the mid-1960s when DMUs ran all services. These in turn were replaced by class416/3 EPB units from 1985 onwards.