Under/Over-Served areas in the network.

[Jozhua]

One thing that is very obvious when riding the network is the seemingly small stations for large towns/cities and large stations for small towns/cities. The fact that most of the network was provisioned in the Victorian era seems to make many imbalances that have carried through till today. The Beeching cuts also left many strange gaps in service.

What are some examples you are aware of as to routes/stations that are strangely well served, or oddly poorly served, on the network?

What strange patterns exist today, that don't make sense with present journey patterns and population distribution?

One big suprise for me, was that the WCML services from further north don't go through Birmingham, providing an intercity service between Edinburgh/Manchester, etc and Birmingham. The bigger suprise was that Birmingham/MCR is run by a pretty slow 4-carriage Cross Country service twice per hour!

A lot of the mainlines tend to branch out like a tree, not connecting the peripheral stations together so well. HS2 is doing this to some extent, but still to a much lesser degree.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Crewe is a fairly insignificant town, which was little more than a hamlet until the railway arrived- and a collection of routes happened to intersect or converge there. Being such a major junction made it an ideal location to serve, and to set up facilities... and the rest is history!

On the other hand there's Dewsbury and Batley both on the Trans-Pennine main line. Dewsbury is smaller but more centralised with the station right on the edge of the town centre, so gets a better service on TPE. Although it's a bigger town overall, Batley's station is on the outer edge of the town, tucked away on a back street with just two trains per hour (TPE Huddersfield to Leeds and Northern Wigan to Leeds).

 

[Malcolmffc]

At current levels of usage, you could argue London is over-serves...

 

[SlideintomyTMs]

In terms of services I’ve always found Haddenham and Thame parkway (chiltern) get quite a few trains per hour for a relatively small area (that’s a 15 min drive from Aylesbury which also has a much larger population and station) I may be wrong but I think as much as 10 trains per hour at some points during the day!

 

[2L70]

One thing that is very obvious when riding the network is the seemingly small stations for large towns/cities. One big suprise that Birmingham/MCR is run by a pretty slow 4-carriage Cross Country service twice per hour!

There used to be more direct trains between Scotland and the Midlands before the Operator in your picture decided they wanted the route...

 

[The Planner]

In terms of services I’ve always found Haddenham and Thame parkway (chiltern) get quite a few trains per hour for a relatively small area (that’s a 15 min drive from Aylesbury which also has a much larger population and station) I may be wrong but I think as much as 10 trains per hour at some points during the day!

You answered your own question there though. Its quicker than Aylesbury, you don't have to drive into Aylesbury and there isn't much in the way of car park expansion there either. Haddenham has a very well heeled catchment area too.

One big suprise for me, was that the WCML services from further north don't go through Birmingham, providing an intercity service between Edinburgh/Manchester, etc and Birmingham. The bigger suprise was that Birmingham/MCR is run by a pretty slow 4-carriage Cross Country service twice per hour!

There is 1tph direct via the Trent Valley and 1tph via the West Mids. One is quick and the other provides the West Mids to Scotland connectivity. You are not going to send both via Brum as its a big time penalty. Not sure how you can speed up XC either without either cutting out station stops or sizeable infrastructure (and one has been done at Norton Bridge anyway)

 

[norbitonflyer]

One big suprise for me, was that the WCML services from further north don't go through Birmingham, providing an intercity service between Edinburgh/Manchester, etc and Birmingham. The bigger suprise was that Birmingham/MCR is run by a pretty slow 4-carriage Cross Country service twice per hour!

Surely this was deliberate - the original LNWR route was indeed an amalgam of the London & Birmingham and the Grand Junction (from Birmingham to Newton le Willows, where it connected with the Liverpool & Manchester). The Trent Valley line was built later to allow longer distance services to bypass the congested Birmingham area. (And of course Northampton was bypassed from the outset, although this was to avoid steep gradients)

There are other examples though - the WCML to Scotland also bypasses both Manchester and Liverpool, passing instead through Warrington, whilst the ECML misses the largest conurbations in the East Midlands, West Yorkshire (York still being a bigger target than Leeds in the 1840s) and Teesside. The GWR's direct line to Bristol kept to open country almost throughout, which is why so many significant places were served by branch lines - some so significant that they escaped the Beeching cuts (Windsor, Henley)

 

[Jozhua]

Crewe is a fairly insignificant town, which was little more than a hamlet until the railway arrived- and a collection of routes happened to intersect or converge there. Being such a major junction made it an ideal location to serve, and to set up facilities... and the rest is history!

On the other hand there's Dewsbury and Batley both on the Trans-Pennine main line. Dewsbury is smaller but more centralised with the station right on the edge of the town centre, so gets a better service on TPE. Although it's a bigger town overall, Batley's station is on the outer edge of the town, tucked away on a back street with just two trains per hour (TPE Huddersfield to Leeds and Northern Wigan to Leeds).

I was going to mention Crewe, so I'm glad you did! The only reason I thought I'd give it a pass, was because of its utility as an interchange.

There used to be more direct trains between Scotland and the Midlands before the Operator in your picture decided they wanted the route...

Ahh, interesting! How was it served before Virgin/XC?

Surely this was deliberate - the original LNWR route was indeed an amalgam of the London & Birmingham and the Grand Junction (from Birmingham to Newton le Willows, where it connected with the Liverpool & Manchester). The Trent Valley line was built later to allow longer distance services to bypass the congested Birmingham area. (And of course Northampton was bypassed from the outset, although this was to avoid steep gradients)

There are other examples though - the WCML to Scotland also bypasses both Manchester and Liverpool, passing instead through Warrington, whilst the ECML misses the largest conurbations in the East Midlands, West Yorkshire (York still being a bigger target than Leeds in the 1840s) and Teesside. The GWR's direct line to Bristol kept to open country almost throughout, which is why so many significant places were served by branch lines - some so significant that they escaped the Beeching cuts (Windsor, Henley)

Yeah, WCML services seem fairly well served by Transpennine Express, at least now that they have the 397's.

 

[2L70]

[QUOTE="Jozhua, post: 4783121, member: 66581"
Ahh, interesting! How was it served before Virgin/XC?
[/QUOTE]

The TPE services to Edinburgh/Glasgow used to be ran by VXC and ran via Wigan NW to Birmingham before Arriva took over XC. I think congestion was one of the reasons they gave for splitting it up.

Certainly last time I was on that route it was a rammed 350 - no different to the rammed Voyagers of old.

 

[Taunton]

Tunbridge Wells is a large town, about 120,000 population, with a very cramped station in a cutting, just 2 platforms between tunnels at both ends, a 12-car train completely fills them. Doesn't even have any points. No scope for expansion at all. Its service effectively has to be all run from Hastings, way to the south.

 

[aliceh]

I'm always surprised by Brockenhurst. I know there's the college there (and at 8.30am, it's very well used!), but it's a pretty small village in the new forest with 4 platforms, 3 trains an hour to London, 3 an hour to Bournemouth and Poole, plus an hourly Cross-country service and 2 per hour on the Lymington branch.

At least, in non-covid times that's what you get.

 

[JamesT]

In terms of services I’ve always found Haddenham and Thame parkway (chiltern) get quite a few trains per hour for a relatively small area (that’s a 15 min drive from Aylesbury which also has a much larger population and station) I may be wrong but I think as much as 10 trains per hour at some points during the day!

It does get around 1m passengers a year. Most of the passengers in the surrounding villages that use the service are going to find a parkway station much more convenient to get to than one in the middle of Aylesbury.

 

[Halish Railway]

I’ve always found it nonsensical that the Durham Coast line has such a poor service, especially considering the population along the route.

Middlesbrough: 138k
Thornaby: 25k
Stockton: 85k
Billingham: 35k
Hartlepool: 93k
Peterlee: 23k
Sunderland: 277k

Surely this must justify some investment and a better service. If I were in charge I would have at least 2tph Middlesbrough to Newcastle via the Durham Coast, 1tph Middlesbrough to Newcastle via Stillington & 1tph Sunderland to York.

 

[cle]

I'm always surprised by Brockenhurst. I know there's the college there (and at 8.30am, it's very well used!), but it's a pretty small village in the new forest with 4 platforms, 3 trains an hour to London, 3 an hour to Bournemouth and Poole, plus an hourly Cross-country service and 2 per hour on the Lymington branch.

At least, in non-covid times that's what you get.

Is this not for operational convenience - i.e. overtaking and interchanging between fasts and slows? Plus the Lymington feed.

 

[SWTurbo]

I'm always surprised by Brockenhurst. I know there's the college there (and at 8.30am, it's very well used!), but it's a pretty small village in the new forest with 4 platforms, 3 trains an hour to London, 3 an hour to Bournemouth and Poole, plus an hourly Cross-country service and 2 per hour on the Lymington branch.

At least, in non-covid times that's what you get.

Agreed! This one has always puzzled me however its location in the forest makes it ideal for passengers that want a london service without going to salisbury/southampton and for those who want to travel further afield without going SAL-BSK/RDG or SOU!

Is this not for operational convenience - i.e. overtaking and interchanging between fasts and slows? Plus the Lymington feed.

Edit: And that ^^^!

 

[Jozhua]

Tunbridge Wells is a large town, about 120,000 population, with a very cramped station in a cutting, just 2 platforms between tunnels at both ends, a 12-car train completely fills them. Doesn't even have any points. No scope for expansion at all. Its service effectively has to be all run from Hastings, way to the south.

Ah, that wouldn't surprise me considering the growth of commuting into London from towns further out. I've found some commuter towns to be pretty well served (e.g. Guildford), but it's clearly hit and miss!

 

[Purple Orange]

I’ve always found it nonsensical that the Durham Coast line has such a poor service, especially considering the population along the route.

Middlesbrough: 138k
Thornaby: 25k
Stockton: 85k
Billingham: 35k
Hartlepool: 93k
Peterlee: 23k
Sunderland: 277k

Surely this must justify some investment and a better service. If I were in charge I would have at least 2tph Middlesbrough to Newcastle via the Durham Coast, 1tph Middlesbrough to Newcastle via Stillington & 1tph Sunderland to York.

Is there available capacity between Newcastle & Sunderland for a 2nd service to Middlesbrough?

 

[lancededcena]

I always found Chelmsford station to be quite small in comparision to the other major settlements of its size (Colchester and Ipswich stations) in the GEML, heck most Norwich bound services don't call there which is odd for a city of 168,000.

Meanwhile the Norwich bound trains always stop in the middle of nowhere Manningtree which only has a population of 911 (2011 census)! Although it has connections to Harwich which turn has connections to the Hook of Holland so I guess convienence for international visitors?

 

[WindsorJoe]

When crossrail is fully operational Iver is intended to have 9 car 345s, 4tph stopping all day. Also sunnymeads and wraysbury have 2tph service all day to and from Waterloo and Clapham junction, I know we have discussed the reasoning why, you in great length on this forum but like the fact Sunnymeads and Wraysbury get 2tph from Clapham and Brighton gets none.

 

[Mikey C]

For a tiny town, Edenbridge is well served, having 2 separate rail lines giving a number of direct services

 

[Halish Railway]

Is there available capacity between Newcastle & Sunderland for a 2nd service to Middlesbrough?

They can squeeze the existing hourly service in between the 5 tph Metro service so who’s to say that they can’t do the same again.

 

[willgreen]

They can squeeze the existing hourly service in between the 5 tph Metro service so who’s to say that they can’t do the same again.

...Nexus?!

 

[pgfb1306]

[QUOTE="Jozhua, post: 4783121, member: 66581"
Ahh, interesting! How was it served before Virgin/XC?

The TPE services to Edinburgh/Glasgow used to be ran by VXC and ran via Wigan NW to Birmingham before Arriva took over XC. I think congestion was one of the reasons they gave for splitting it up.

Certainly last time I was on that route it was a rammed 350 - no different to the rammed Voyagers of old.
[/QUOTE]

Before Operation Princess, there were a range of different services which eventually once settled was a two hourly Edinburgh to Birmingham and south, two hourly Glasgow to Birmingham and south, making hourly south of Carlisle with a more infrequent Edinburgh or Glasgow to Manchester with some continuing through. When CrossCountry was lost to Arriva, the two hourly Edinburgh / Glasgow to Birmingham services stayed with West Coast and today (pre Covid) were the Edinburgh / Glasgow to London services via Preston, Wigan and the West Midlands. The Manchester service eventually ended up at TPE replacing the 220s with 185s which from memory wasn't much of a reduction in number of seats.
TPE have built this up to being a two hourly service running throughout the day from both Edinburgh and Glasgow to Manchester Airport but have seen the Windermere branch move to Northern and it lose its Manchester services. We saw the 185s move to 350s and now the 397s so seeing many more seats on the north end of the west coast.

 

[Sprinter150]

They can squeeze the existing hourly service in between the 5 tph Metro service so who’s to say that they can’t do the same again.

Could well be possible in the future, as the new fleet of metrocars (unlike the current ones) won't require double-blocking, so in theory trains will be able to run closer together

 

[6Gman]

One thing that is very obvious when riding the network is the seemingly small stations for large towns/cities and large stations for small towns/cities. The fact that most of the network was provisioned in the Victorian era seems to make many imbalances that have carried through till today. The Beeching cuts also left many strange gaps in service.

What are some examples you are aware of as to routes/stations that are strangely well served, or oddly poorly served, on the network?

What strange patterns exist today, that don't make sense with present journey patterns and population distribution?

One big suprise for me, was that the WCML services from further north don't go through Birmingham, providing an intercity service between Edinburgh/Manchester, etc and Birmingham. The bigger suprise was that Birmingham/MCR is run by a pretty slow 4-carriage Cross Country service twice per hour!

A lot of the mainlines tend to branch out like a tree, not connecting the peripheral stations together so well. HS2 is doing this to some extent, but still to a much lesser degree.

There is a 2-hourly WCML Inter City service between Edinburgh and Birmingham. Probably the best service it's ever enjoyed.

Manchester-Birmingham services were indeed grand Inter City affairs at one time. And ran every two hours! So half-hourly is a distinct improvement. They're slow because: 1. they need to serve intermediate stations; 2. everything's slow once it enters the black hole of Wolves-Brum! That the Voyagers are too small has been widely discussed.

 

[basfordlad]

There is a 2-hourly WCML Inter City service between Edinburgh and Birmingham. Probably the best service it's ever enjoyed.

Manchester-Birmingham services were indeed grand Inter City affairs at one time. And ran every two hours! So half-hourly is a distinct improvement. They're slow because: 1. they need to serve intermediate stations; 2. everything's slow once it enters the black hole of Wolves-Brum! That the Voyagers are too small has been widely discussed.

The days when you could a meal on a cross country service in the 1990s leaving Birmingham and going up to Cumbria!

 

[Andy Pacer]

It does get around 1m passengers a year. Most of the passengers in the surrounding villages that use the service are going to find a parkway station much more convenient to get to than one in the middle of Aylesbury.

Also has some integration with Arriva bus service 280.

 

[telstarbox]

Tunbridge Wells is a large town, about 120,000 population, with a very cramped station in a cutting, just 2 platforms between tunnels at both ends, a 12-car train completely fills them. Doesn't even have any points. No scope for expansion at all. Its service effectively has to be all run from Hastings, way to the south.

Am I missing something? The Tunbridge Wells trains alternate between terminating at TW itself and running to/from Hastings and this has been the case for a while?

 

[BigB]

Tunbridge trains that terminate arrive at Platform 2, run to the turnback ECS and return on Platform 1 - a quick look on RTT shows 4tph doing this.

 

[Jozhua]

There is a 2-hourly WCML Inter City service between Edinburgh and Birmingham. Probably the best service it's ever enjoyed.

Manchester-Birmingham services were indeed grand Inter City affairs at one time. And ran every two hours! So half-hourly is a distinct improvement. They're slow because: 1. they need to serve intermediate stations; 2. everything's slow once it enters the black hole of Wolves-Brum! That the Voyagers are too small has been widely discussed.

That's my point though, some routes are oddly poorly served. Probably no good comparing to 80's BR shoestring budget service with no ridership.

Makes no sense that number 2 and 3 cities by population have such poor rail service, really goes to show how under-invested in many areas of the country are.

Last time I travelled through Birmingham from Manchester, it was late morning (off peak) and there were people standing in the aisles!