Under/Over-Served areas in the network.

[alistairlees]

Am I missing something? The Tunbridge Wells trains alternate between terminating at TW itself and running to/from Hastings and this has been the case for a while?

It has basically been the case forever.

 

[Wolvercoter]

For a city its size, Exeter does well with 9 stations in the city boundary. And station number 10 is imminent!

 

[sw1ller]

One route that is massively over served, albeit not strangely as it’s purely political, is Llandudno junction to Llandudno. Empty trains going back and forth all day just so someone in Cardiff can say that capacity has been massively increased on the north wales coast.

 

[Llandudno]

One route that is massively over served, albeit not strangely as it’s purely political, is Llandudno junction to Llandudno. Empty trains going back and forth all day just so someone in Cardiff can say that capacity has been massively increased on the north wales coast.

That’s a bit harsh, there are times when loadings are light on the shuttle trains, sometimes because there are no decent connections at the Junction.

Under normal pre-Covid circumstances the through trains to Chester and beyond load quite well from Llandudno and Deganwy, it’s having to change trains at the dingy Llandudno Junction station that is the deterrent. If you couple this with a non clockface service, gaps of around 70 minutes at certain times of the day, plus regular rail replacement buses, because some of the services utilise the non operating Conwy Valley unit, then it’s inevitable many folks will use the Junction as their railhead.

Hopefully things will improve in 2022? When Llandudno gets its hourly (hopefully clockface) Service to Liverpool.

 

[30907]

It has basically been the case forever.

Well, since closure of TW West/electrification, a mere 40 years

One route that is massively over served, albeit not strangely as it’s purely political, is Llandudno junction to Llandudno. Empty trains going back and forth all day just so someone in Cardiff can say that capacity has been massively increased on the north wales coast.

In normal times, arguably Llandudno is underserved for its size, with long gaps in through services at certain timeswith.

 

[davetheguard]

For a city its size, Exeter does well with 9 stations in the city boundary. And station number 10 is imminent!

But I'm not sure that means it is overserved; several of those stations only have an hourly train, which given the short distances involved, they could perhaps do with becoming half hourly at least (otherwise it can be almost quicker to walk). I'm sure I read recently somewhere, that Exeter's traffic in the rush hour is the slowest in the country - coming in from the east takes forever.

 

[snookertam]

Can think of a few examples in Scotland.

East Kilbride is one of the largest settlements in the country (pop 75,000), but only has a half hourly service to Glasgow City Centre serving two stations in the town, both single platforms. Probably a quirk of being so close to Glasgow and effectively being a giant suburb - EDIT: And being on the end of a branch line. The aspiration is for 4tph I believe and doubling beyond Busby.

We also have Stirling, considered a city, but actually relatively small (pop 37,000) with 2tph to Edinburgh, 3-4tph to Glasgow, and even a twice daily service to London. But this has been because of its location (it’s historic importance was also down to this) effectively being a railhead first other towns in the vicinity.

Ayr and Kilmarnock both have roughly the same population (about 46,000) but the former gets 4tph to Glasgow as opposed to the latter’s 2, mainly due to the line to Ayr serving many other places of significance en route. The Kilmarnock line only really serves a handful of villages and Barrhead.

In the Glasgow area there are a number of small villages which get possibly generous half hourly services. I can think of Cardross, Howwood, Lochwinnoch, Bowling, Kilpatrick, Langbank to make a few. But offering that frequency probably makes the train more than twice as attractive than only offering an hourly service, for example. Their proximity to Glasgow also matters too, similar sized places elsewhere in the country wouldn’t receive such a service.

 

[route101]

Can think of a few examples in Scotland.

East Kilbride is one of the largest settlements in the country (pop 75,000), but only has a half hourly service to Glasgow City Centre serving two stations in the town, both single platforms. Probably a quirk of being so close to Glasgow and effectively being a giant suburb - EDIT: And being on the end of a branch line. The aspiration is for 4tph I believe and doubling beyond Busby.

We also have Stirling, considered a city, but actually relatively small (pop 37,000) with 2tph to Edinburgh, 3-4tph to Glasgow, and even a twice daily service to London. But this has been because of its location (it’s historic importance was also down to this) effectively being a railhead first other towns in the vicinity.

Ayr and Kilmarnock both have roughly the same population (about 46,000) but the former gets 4tph to Glasgow as opposed to the latter’s 2, mainly due to the line to Ayr serving many other places of significance en route. The Kilmarnock line only really serves a handful of villages and Barrhead.

In the Glasgow area there are a number of small villages which get possibly generous half hourly services. I can think of Cardross, Howwood, Lochwinnoch, Bowling, Kilpatrick, Langbank to make a few. But offering that frequency probably makes the train more than twice as attractive than only offering an hourly service, for example. Their proximity to Glasgow also matters too, similar sized places elsewhere in the country wouldn’t receive such a service.

Yes East Kilbride is Under served to a degree. I think its been dumbed down to 4x hour at peaks, which is really what it is now. I feel East Kilbride could do with earlier and later services. First service gets you into Glasgow for 7am and the last service is 2318 .

 

[MarkyT]

Tunbridge Wells is a large town, about 120,000 population, with a very cramped station in a cutting, just 2 platforms between tunnels at both ends, a 12-car train completely fills them. Doesn't even have any points. No scope for expansion at all. Its service effectively has to be all run from Hastings, way to the south.

A 12-car turnback was one of my projects at NR. Both platforms are bidirectional, and a 12-car can call (perhaps with one or two doors isolated by SDO, not sure), but because the train doesn't quite fit between the signals, it can't be reversed there as desired. For some years, TOCs ran shorter 11-car formations on the terminators to overcome this limitation, and NR looked at various options to move the signals at one or both ends a short distance into the tunnels to create more standage. There were many practical problems with that approach, however (very tight clearance, safe maintenance access, lack of an approved tunnel signal product for use so close to the portal), so eventually the idea of a turnback siding was suggested by the TOC. In some respects, that's better than turning back in a platform, as the platform can be used by another train while the reversing one shunts, and the driver changes ends. While the whole procedure clearly takes longer via the siding, it was a TOC suggestion and fitted with their diagrams so was an acceptable solution for all parties.

 

[DorkingMain]

I'm always surprised by Brockenhurst. I know there's the college there (and at 8.30am, it's very well used!), but it's a pretty small village in the new forest with 4 platforms, 3 trains an hour to London, 3 an hour to Bournemouth and Poole, plus an hourly Cross-country service and 2 per hour on the Lymington branch.

At least, in non-covid times that's what you get.

The interchange with the Lymington branch is the only reason fast trains stop there, I believe.

On the note of the SWR network - Effingham Junction, Clandon and Horsley are largely in the middle of nowhere but get 4 trains per hour each way, simply on account of where they're located.

On the note of underserved stations - Inverness gets a pretty bad deal considering how busy it is.

 

[thenorthern]

Swale station I have often felt is over-served as it has an half hourly service but only 7,000 passenger a year.

For it's size I have often felt Skipton is over-served.

Underserved I think the East Midlands as a whole.

 

[Class 170101]

I always found Chelmsford station to be quite small in comparision to the other major settlements of its size (Colchester and Ipswich stations) in the GEML, heck most Norwich bound services don't call there which is odd for a city of 168,000.

Meanwhile the Norwich bound trains always stop in the middle of nowhere Manningtree which only has a population of 911 (2011 census)! Although it has connections to Harwich which turn has connections to the Hook of Holland so I guess convienence for international visitors?

Chelmsford is served hourly by Intercity services except at Peak Times where the trains would be overloaded (in normal times)

Manningtree Station serves a wider area of Constable country and parts of south east suffolk and is quite busy at peak times as people drive there. Just look at the station car park between the peaks and the number of cars there (again pre-covid).

That's my point though, some routes are oddly poorly served. Probably no good comparing to 80's BR shoestring budget service with no ridership.

Makes no sense that number 2 and 3 cities by population have such poor rail service, really goes to show how under-invested in many areas of the country are.

Last time I travelled through Birmingham from Manchester, it was late morning (off peak) and there were people standing in the aisles!

The issue is the trains themselves. Quite simply they need to be 8/9/10 carriages long and not 4 or 5.

On the note of underserved stations - Inverness gets a pretty bad deal considering how busy it is.

I believe its supposed to be getting an hourly service between Inverness and Perth and then onwards to Glasgow and Edinburgh fairly soon.

 

[Bevan Price]

My home town, St. Helens (Lancashire). population over 100,000 is poorly served. Due to the landed gentry in the 1820s, the Liverpool to Manchester Railway was forced to pass about 2 miles south of the town centre; the main station on that route - St. Helens Junction, has lost all its fast services to Liverpool, Manchester & Yorkshire, leaving just an hourly stopping service to Manchester. The town centre station, St. Helens Central (ex-Shaw Street) had (pre-Covid) an acceptable 2 tph stopping trains between Liverpool & Wigan, plus an hourly semi-fast service (Liverpool / Wigan / Preston / Blackpool), but for a town of its size, it is poorly served by direct trains to major cities beyond the local area.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Tunbridge Wells is a large town, about 120,000 population, with a very cramped station in a cutting, just 2 platforms between tunnels at both ends, a 12-car train completely fills them. Doesn't even have any points. No scope for expansion at all. Its service effectively has to be all run from Hastings, way to the south.

Um... The points on the route diagram claim differently

So let Bromley South amuse you, a population c.90,000 (probably slightly closer to 100,000) 8.3m passengers (incl interchanges) a year and a 24tph (12 each way) service, it makes very little sense, it manages that from a 4 platform 2 up 2 down setup and at certain times of day 24tph isn't enough but it comes across as overkill outside of peak (I understand that number does shrink down closer to 20tph off peak) but even then its a very busy railway through Bromley South

 

[Taunton]

I think you will find that diagram is not quite to scale. The points shown at both ends are actually well beyond the two significant tunnels which bracket the station, out in the suburbs of the town. @MarkyT explains above why this has to be so. Getting back to the original point, the station itself on its squashed site is surprisingly undersized for the town.

Regarding Bromley, it is the principal station into London for much of the London Borough of Bromley, population over 300,000, and also for those from adjacent Kent. Certainly people I know in Westerham drive to there for their railhead, finding it much more convenient (and cheaper) than Sevenoaks.

 

[chris_in_salop]

I feel that Telford (population 150k) is relatively under-served for its size, although recent timetable changes (pre-Covid) have improved matters. Car ownership is fairly low, and there are commuting flows to and from Shrewsbury, Wolverhampton and Birmingham. The 2 trains an hour to Birmingham and Shrewsbury, irregularly spaced and often also packed with longer-distance passengers, were not really sufficient.

In my crayonista fantasies, Telford might be the sort of place where trams or light rail could work, using the New Town's very wide main roads to join up the outlying estates, industrial zones and 'neighbourhood units' to the town centre and station.

 

[theironroad]

I'm always surprised by Brockenhurst. I know there's the college there (and at 8.30am, it's very well used!), but it's a pretty small village in the new forest with 4 platforms, 3 trains an hour to London, 3 an hour to Bournemouth and Poole, plus an hourly Cross-country service and 2 per hour on the Lymington branch.

At least, in non-covid times that's what you get.

Quite agree.

Currently XC aren't stopping at Brockenhurst in either direction and if in the future Xc endure beyond Southampton, I wonder if they'll continue to omit Brock.

Additionally in a pre covid and even post covid a fast SWR service should be Weymouth, Dorchester, Poole , Bournemouth, Southampton central, Southampton airport and Waterloo and vice versa .

Journey times from Dorset and south west hamphire were dire before covid and obviously worse now.

However, who knows what the future will bring now and how work and leisure patterns will change and the demand on rail travel.

 

[backontrack]

Barnham, maybe?

 

[30907]

Regarding Bromley, it is the principal station into London for much of the London Borough of Bromley, population over 300,000, and also for those from adjacent Kent. Certainly people I know in Westerham drive to there for their railhead, finding it much more convenient (and cheaper) than Sevenoaks.

Much only by surface area I think - pretty much every suburb in the borough has a station within walking distance (ish!) so that leaves Locksbottom/Farnborough and particularly Biggin Hill (which has grown enormously since I was a lad!), plus Hayes which is at the end of a circuitous route (I assume Hayes commuters clog up the streets round Shortlands with their parked cars during the day?).
But I agree that it justifies its service.

 

[hermit]

Barnham, maybe?

Yes, it’s a very small place, but is important for connections between the coast line, Arun Valley, Littlehampton and Bognor. There are usually a lot of changing passengers there. The splendid independent café and kiosk there help to make it a pleasant experience.

 

[peters]

Under normal circumstances I'd say at off-peak times there are too many trains to Rose Hill Marple, Buxton and Alderley Edge given the trains to all three of those places rarely have many passengers on them, especially when services to other places can be packed but obviously Rose Hill doesn't have too many services at the moment!

 

[Acfb]

Under normal circumstances I'd say at off-peak times there are too many trains to Rose Hill Marple, Buxton and Alderley Edge given the trains to all three of those places rarely have many passengers on them, especially when services to other places can be packed but obviously Rose Hill doesn't have too many services at the moment!

Buxton line usage is a bit all over the place TBH based on my experiences between Manchester and Whaley Bridge over the years. I have been on a 17.49 service from Piccadilly before which has enormously emptied out at Hazel Grove. Other times though when it had an hourly service it has been relatively busy mid morning heading towards Manchester.

I think the line has greater potential if it ever returns to 2tph once the covid effect wears off (I accept 1tph is fine for now), particularly Chapel En le Frith which underperforms due to it's location and people preferring Chinley.

It could really do with being electrified to provide quicker journey times to Disley, New Mills Newtown, Whaley Bridge, Chapel en le Frith and Buxton with the stop omissions on the faster services maintained.

 

[BeijingDave]

My home town, St. Helens (Lancashire). population over 100,000 is poorly served. Due to the landed gentry in the 1820s, the Liverpool to Manchester Railway was forced to pass about 2 miles south of the town centre; the main station on that route - St. Helens Junction, has lost all its fast services to Liverpool, Manchester & Yorkshire, leaving just an hourly stopping service to Manchester. The town centre station, St. Helens Central (ex-Shaw Street) had (pre-Covid) an acceptable 2 tph stopping trains between Liverpool & Wigan, plus an hourly semi-fast service (Liverpool / Wigan / Preston / Blackpool), but for a town of its size, it is poorly served by direct trains to major cities beyond the local area.

Also very difficult and expensive (in terms of price to distance) to get to by rail from neighbouring towns - for example Warrington. As the rugby crowd have always known. Saints is probably the one traditional rugby fixture I would never do by rail.

Arguably many on the Merseyrail network are over-served, particularly some of the villages like Hooton.

 

[peters]

particularly some of the villages like Hooton.

Hooton is really a mini-interchange between the Chester and Ellesmere Port spurs so it makes sense for all trains to stop there. I'm not convinced Chester trains need to call at all stations between Hooton and Birkenhead though.

 

[backontrack]

The splendid independent café and kiosk there help to make it a pleasant experience.

Thanks for the tip I'll bear it in mind.

 

[55002]

I'm always surprised by Brockenhurst. I know there's the college there (and at 8.30am, it's very well used!), but it's a pretty small village in the new forest with 4 platforms, 3 trains an hour to London, 3 an hour to Bournemouth and Poole, plus an hourly Cross-country service and 2 per hour on the Lymington branch.

At least, in non-covid times that's what you get.

used to have a motorail service back in the day too

 

[Parallel]

Some of the Plymouth suburban stations are very underserved IMO considering most are in areas with a lot of housing. One of them (Dockyard) is a request stop! Would be good if these suburban stations got the same level of service that many other cities enjoy. Due to some trains going off to Gunnislake, the only realistic way you could improve this is by running trains from Par or Liskeard to somewhere beyond Plymouth. Extending the Newquay trains to Plymouth or Exeter could work but would also require more units.

 

[BeijingDave]

Hooton is really a mini-interchange between the Chester and Ellesmere Port spurs so it makes sense for all trains to stop there. I'm not convinced Chester trains need to call at all stations between Hooton and Birkenhead though.

Sure, but the focus of the original question as I read it was large stations for small places and vice versa.

With 3 platforms (was 4, and before that even more) and 4 trains in each direction an hour on weekdays (Liverpool-Chester) and the same for Ellesmere Port, Hooton fits as it's a small village.

 

[bramling]

Also very difficult and expensive (in terms of price to distance) to get to by rail from neighbouring towns - for example Warrington. As the rugby crowd have always known. Saints is probably the one traditional rugby fixture I would never do by rail.

Arguably many on the Merseyrail network are over-served, particularly some of the villages like Hooton.

I wouldn’t say Hooton is over-served as it functions as a popular park and ride. There’s probably some Merseyrail stations that are however - Aughton Park is one which seems fortunate to get 4tph.

 

[peters]

Sure, but the focus of the original question as I read it was large stations for small places and vice versa.

With 3 platforms (was 4, and before that even more) and 4 trains in each direction an hour on weekdays (Liverpool-Chester) and the same for Ellesmere Port, Hooton fits as it's a small village.

I thought Ellesmere Port only had 2 trains an hour to Liverpool.