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Undertaking on roads

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matacaster

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In the states, as far as I remember, undertaking is allowed at least on interstates. This has never been allowed in UK as its claimed to be dangerous. However, cyclists do seem to be allowed to do this particularly when there is a traffic is slow moving. A bicycle is far harder to see than a car, so why the different attitude and is it sensible?
 
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zwk500

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Undertaking is discouraged in normal flows, but in slow or crawling traffic with a car it's better to stay in lane and move forward independently. It's also worth noting that many, many drivers routinely undertake on motorways because of other drivers who should have moved over but stubbornly sit in lane 2 or 3.
Cyclists undertake for a range of reasons, some are sensible and others are not. When approaching a junction, undertaking to get to the Cycle Box for a clear view of the junction is sensible as the red light protects the cyclist and the junction is the real threat. In slow moving traffic with an independent cycle lane, again it's reasonable if similar circumstances would apply in a car (e.g. queueing for a merge/turning). However where it is very much not sensible is when there are frequent turnings and traffic is moving freely, as a car turning may be unable to see the bike until it's too late, or if it requires filtering (splitting lanes) between moving traffic at any speed.
 

richw

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This has never been allowed in UK as its claimed to be dangerous.
There is nothing to strictly prohibit it in U.K. law. However if you cause an accident doing so you could be prosecuted for careless driving.
However if you are Maintaining a steady speed and position and there’s a middle lane hogger they’d struggle to bring a case against you for careless driving
 

PeterC

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There is nothing to strictly prohibit it in U.K. law. However if you cause an accident doing so you could be prosecuted for careless driving.
However if you are Maintaining a steady speed and position and there’s a middle lane hogger they’d struggle to bring a case against you for careless driving
I have sat in lane 1 late at night with cruise control set BELOW the limit and managed to pass multiple vehicles in lane 2
 

The exile

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Have to confess, I opened this thread assuming it was going to be about hearses!!!!
 

Cowley

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Have to confess, I opened this thread assuming it was going to be about hearses!!!!

If you’re getting undertaken by a hearse you probably need to speed up. :lol:
 

ABB125

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I'm never particularly comfortable with undertaking (except during heavy traffic, where it's ok) as I consider it so be bad practice. However, I do occasionally do so, often on the A38 between Spaghetti junction and Minworth where almost all the traffic is doing about 35 in lane 2. I can go at 40 in lane 1, which is usually nearly empty. (The speed limit here is 40.)
 

Bald Rick

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Undertaking is allowed on U.K. roads, albeit it is discouraged. But just like overtaking, it must be done safely.

I think my record is about 40 vehicles whilst in lane 1 on the M40 between J3 and the M25.

Rarely do I do so with fewer than one empty lane between me and the vehicle I am passing.
 

stuu

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It's the more sensible option on 4 lane motorways sometimes. When it is quiet you can be two and even three lanes from other traffic. Fundamentally if you can be undertaken, you are in the wrong lane
 

Bald Rick

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Fundamentally if you can be undertaken, you are in the wrong lane

exactly. And if your are in the wrong lane, you can’t be paying attention. And if you are not paying attention, you are not a good driver.

Personally I’d have them all off the road, but I admit to having extreme views on the subject of driving standards.
 

zwk500

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exactly. And if your are in the wrong lane, you can’t be paying attention. And if you are not paying attention, you are not a good driver.
Agreed. It's very inefficient and makes a mockery of expensive upgrade plans, and more importantly dangerous as it restricts other traffic from moving freely.
Personally I’d have them all off the road, but I admit to having extreme views on the subject of driving standards.
I personally would like mandatory 5- or 10-year retests, although admit the practicalities of that are somewhat problematic. I do think it would be feasible to get 5-year retests of the Theory, though. Treat it a bit like the MOT, you can refresh your theory any time after 4 years from getting your license, but must have passed it before the 5th anniversary. Any time remaining when you do pass is carried over. Multiple attempts allowed, and only need to pass it once in that year.
Short of that I'd send them a bill for a representative share of the widening scheme...
 

MotCO

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exactly. And if your are in the wrong lane, you can’t be paying attention. And if you are not paying attention, you are not a good driver.
And you are not allowing the road to operate at capacity.

If you’re getting undertaken by a hearse you probably need to speed up. :lol:
I was once overtaken by a pink ice cream van doing more than 70 mph in the fast line!
 

JGurney

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The Highway Code rule on this is rule 268, which states: "In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions, you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.

This applies to cyclists in a cycle lane next to the kerb, who may well be able to travel faster than traffic in the all-users lane to the right.

In other circumstances, cyclists should pass on the right. In my experience, doing so is sometimes hampered by motorists who respond to noticing me coming up behind them by moving a little to the right. At first I thought that they were doing this deliberately to make passing them difficult, then realised they were probably making misguided attempts to helpfully share the road, and were assuming I was going to pass on their left, when I had no intention of doing anything so silly.
 

stuu

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exactly. And if your are in the wrong lane, you can’t be paying attention. And if you are not paying attention, you are not a good driver.

Personally I’d have them all off the road, but I admit to having extreme views on the subject of driving standards.
I have similar thoughts on driving standards. The idea you pass your test and that's it for up to 53 years is a joke. No other situation in life would allow something with so much potential danger to go untested for half a century
 

Bald Rick

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I have similar thoughts on driving standards. The idea you pass your test and that's it for up to 53 years is a joke. No other situation in life would allow something with so much potential danger to go untested for half a century

There is that.

But it seems to me that most people who can’t understand lane discipline are relatively young
 

miklcct

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Undertaking is discouraged in normal flows, but in slow or crawling traffic with a car it's better to stay in lane and move forward independently. It's also worth noting that many, many drivers routinely undertake on motorways because of other drivers who should have moved over but stubbornly sit in lane 2 or 3.
In Hong Kong, undertaking (formally "overtaking on the left") is illegal on motorways.

This is defined as changing to the left lane, passing other vehicles, and returning to the original lane. Merely going faster than the traffic on the right lane without changing lanes is not undertaking.
 

JGurney

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I personally would like mandatory 5- or 10-year retests,
Agreed. For a past job I used to hold a minibus certificate called MiDAS which required taking an initial test (more demanding than the car test) and re-testing every three years. At each retest I passed but the examiner corrected some habit I had fallen into doing which while not dangerous was still not ideal.
 

zwk500

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There is that.

But it seems to me that most people who can’t understand lane discipline are relatively young
That's not my experience on the M25, where drivers appear to be middle aged or elderly. Younger drivers tend to change lane too often in my experience, whereas older drivers establish themselves in lane 2 at 65mph and won't change lane for hell or high water until their exit, even if several lanes are added on their left hand side!
 

MotCO

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That's not my experience on the M25, where drivers appear to be middle aged or elderly. Younger drivers tend to change lane too often in my experience, whereas older drivers establish themselves in lane 2 at 65mph and won't change lane for hell or high water until their exit, even if several lanes are added on their left hand side!
One of the issues is that the M25 sometimes goes from 3 lanes to 4 lanes and back again. It might be helpful to have some reminder signs showing how many lanes there are, and how far before it changes again.
 

ABB125

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One of the issues is that the M25 sometimes goes from 3 lanes to 4 lanes and back again. It might be helpful to have some reminder signs showing how many lanes there are, and how far before it changes again.
These do exist already, see here for one example. https://maps.app.goo.gl/tK89zqSSaXcpspVs6
However I'd be pretty confident in saying that most drivers won't have a clue what these signs are for (or not even notice them!).
 

The exile

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One of the issues is that the M25 sometimes goes from 3 lanes to 4 lanes and back again. It might be helpful to have some reminder signs showing how many lanes there are, and how far before it changes again.
Similar on the M4 in Wales where lane 1 frequently becomes “exit only” just as there’s an impenetrable stream of traffic in lane 2 (or someone doing 70.1 mph to your 70 abreast of you)
 

zwk500

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In Hong Kong, undertaking (formally "overtaking on the left") is illegal on motorways.

This is defined as changing to the left lane, passing other vehicles, and returning to the original lane. Merely going faster than the traffic on the right lane without changing lanes is not undertaking.
In the UK, passing on the left hand side even just by driving normally is discouraged. The risk is that somebody has a hazard ahead/behind/to the side and needs to move left whilst you are in their blind spot.
One of the issues is that the M25 sometimes goes from 3 lanes to 4 lanes and back again. It might be helpful to have some reminder signs showing how many lanes there are, and how far before it changes again.
Proper driving (not even good driving) would be paying attention to the lane markings, signs and traffic to position yourself as far left as possible without requiring excessive weaving or rapid speed changes. The M25 has several differnt types of lane gain/drop signs depending on which era the signage dates from, but if you look at the dashes it becomes quite clear quite quickly whether the lane is gained or not. The M25 does have a problem where the queues for junctions can often be more than 1 mile out (i.e. before the first sign/lane marking changes) and so people sit in lane 3 to avoid having to actually think about driving sensibly.

I used to regularly drive Milton Keynes to Sussex via the M1, M25 via Heathrow, M23 and so the section of frequent lane gains/drops is a familiar problem for me! Particularly the M4-M3-A3 section where the junctions are in quite quick succession and there's regularly queues caused by joining traffic conflicting with leaving traffic. It's not made any easier by some people who seem determined to go from the slip lane to the right most lane in about 10m of forward travel!
Similar on the M4 in Wales where lane 1 frequently becomes “exit only” just as there’s an impenetrable stream of traffic in lane 2 (or someone doing 70.1 mph to your 70 abreast of you)
A proper standard driving for all would see the vehicle in Lane 1 drop back to 65mph, identify a gap, indicate, then allow the following vehicle in 2 to drop back before moving over. Sadly, quite often traffic in lane 2 will sit nose-to-tail without a care in the world for the driver in lane 1 who's patiently trying to move out.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's the more sensible option on 4 lane motorways sometimes. When it is quiet you can be two and even three lanes from other traffic. Fundamentally if you can be undertaken, you are in the wrong lane

Give or take that I'm quite often undertaken by people who think the Two Second Rule is somehow unnecessary (i.e. I'm too close to a car in the inside lane to safely move in). Almost always driving a German car.

I also generally as a rule don't change lane directly alongside another vehicle as they may not see me, nor at the same time as another vehicle is doing so in case they need to abort the manoeuvre for a reason I can't see.
 

zwk500

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I may be interpreting incorrectly, but surely if you changed lanes in this situation you'd crash into the side of the other car?
Poster in Lane 1, other car in Lane 3. Risk of both going for Lane 2 at the same time
 
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