Undertaking on roads

[LSWR Cavalier]

Agreed. For a past job I used to hold a minibus certificate called MiDAS which required taking an initial test (more demanding than the car test) and re-testing every three years. At each retest I passed but the examiner corrected some habit I had fallen into doing which while not dangerous was still not ideal.

What habits, please?

 

[Bald Rick]

Give or take that I'm quite often undertaken by people who think the Two Second Rule is somehow unnecessary (i.e. I'm too close to a car in the inside lane to safely move in). Almost always driving a German car.

long day and I don’t understand this.

you’re too close to a car on the lane to your left to safely move in… who is undertaking you?

 

[zwk500]

long day and I don’t understand this.

you’re too close to a car on the lane to your left to safely move in… who is undertaking you?

I think what Bletchleyite is saying is after identifying a gap to move into, he's being undertaken by somebody screaming up the inside to sit on the number plate of the car he's trying to slot in behind.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think what Bletchleyite is saying is after identifying a gap to move into, he's being undertaken by somebody screaming up the inside to sit on the number plate of the car he's trying to slot in behind.

but how has that car doing the undertaking on the inside got there? There’s surely something in the way that has just been overtaken, going slowly,

 

[ABB125]

long day and I don’t understand this.

you’re too close to a car on the lane to your left to safely move in… who is undertaking you?

My interpretation is that Bletleyite is overtaking a car. He aims to leave a safe gap before pulling in in front of the overtaken car. However, the driver of the German car behind is annoyed by this, so pulls into the space Bletleyite is leaving before pulling over, then undertakes Bletleyite.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My interpretation is that Bletleyite is overtaking a car. He aims to leave a safe gap before pulling in in front of the overtaken car. However, the driver of the German car behind is annoyed by this, so pulls into the space Bletleyite is leaving before pulling over, then undertakes Bletleyite.

That's one. But more common is a situation on a fairly busy motorway when I pull out to overtake a car, but that car is too close to the car in front for me to safely pull back in applying the Two Second Rule then back out for the second one, thus the only safe option is to overtake both vehicles. However Mr BMW* prefers to pull left despite there not being the spacing for this to be safe, undertake and pull back in front of me.

It is however quite "fun" if they do this and misjudge it such that they end up stuck behind the second car.

Another one that I don't like is when I'm in lane 3 overtaking a lorry in lane 2 which is itself overtaking a lorry in lane 1. The lorry pulls back in, and as I said I won't make a manoeuvre alongside another vehicle also making one because it removes their ability to abort if they need to (or worse they may not see me there, might abort anyway and so sideswipe me), and I can't see lane 1 so can't judge if they may or may not need to. The BMW, as it almost always is, takes exception and zooms past my inside before I can safely make my manoeuvre once the lorry has safely made theirs.

Similarly if I'm overtaking in Lane 3 and move back left, said BMWs like to squeeze past as soon as there's only just enough space, which removes my ability to abort and is not appreciated. Before they pass they should wait for me to complete my manoeuvre fully so I have completely left the lane.

It's all just impatience.

* Always male, and always a premium German car, though Audis are almost as common as BMWs.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's one. But more common is a situation on a fairly busy motorway when I pull out to overtake a car, but that car is too close to the car in front for me to safely pull back in applying the Two Second Rule then back out for the second one, thus the only safe option is to overtake both vehicles. However Mr BMW* prefers to pull left despite there not being the spacing for this to be safe, undertake and pull back in front of me.

It is however quite "fun" if they do this and misjudge it such that they end up stuck behind the second car.

Another one that I don't like is when I'm in lane 3 overtaking a lorry in lane 2 which is itself overtaking a lorry in lane 1. The lorry pulls back in, and as I said I won't make a manoeuvre alongside another vehicle also making one because it removes their ability to abort if they need to (or worse they may not see me there, might abort anyway and so sideswipe me), and I can't see lane 1 so can't judge if they may or may not need to. The BMW, as it almost always is, takes exception and zooms past my inside before I can safely make my manoeuvre once the lorry has safely made theirs.

Similarly if I'm overtaking in Lane 3 and move back left, said BMWs like to squeeze past as soon as there's only just enough space, which removes my ability to abort and is not appreciated. Before they pass they should wait for me to complete my manoeuvre fully so I have completely left the lane.

It's all just impatience.

* Always male, and always a premium German car, though Audis are almost as common as BMWs.

thank you, I understand now, although will say in all my years of driving, I’ve very rarely seen either example.

and I don’t driver a Beamer.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's the more sensible option on 4 lane motorways sometimes. When it is quiet you can be two and even three lanes from other traffic. Fundamentally if you can be undertaken, you are in the wrong lane

Yes agreed. If you are not overtaking anything you should be in the leftmost lane.

 

[tomuk]

Yes agreed. If you are not overtaking anything you should be in the leftmost lane.

Why? If the left lane is empty of lorries ok but if not it is pointless to swerve in and out of them.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why? If the left lane is empty of lorries ok but if not it is pointless to swerve in and out of them.

Of course you shouldn’t swerve in and out, but if you aren’t going faster than the left lane then that’s the lane you should drive in. The motorway has only one driving lane.

 

[zwk500]

Why? If the left lane is empty of lorries ok but if not it is pointless to swerve in and out of them.

The highway code:

264
Keep in the left lane unless overtaking.

• If you are overtaking, you should return to the left lane when it is safe to do so (see also Rules 267 and 268).
• Be aware of emergency services, traffic officers, recovery workers and other people or vehicles stopped on the hard shoulder or in an emergency area. If you are driving in the left lane, and it is safe to do so, you should move into the adjacent lane to create more space between your vehicle and the people and stopped vehicle

Motorways - Lane discipline (264 to 266)

You should always drive in the left-hand lane when the road ahead is clear. If you are overtaking a number of slower-moving vehicles, you should return to the left-hand lane as soon as you are safely past.

www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk

If you are overtaking several vehicles in quick succession then it's fine to stay in lane 2, but I personally usually try and move left if the gap between lorries is large enough that somebody behind could overtake me before I've caught the next one up. Quite often if somebody is closer to me than I feel safe, I'll slot in behind a lorry to let the past before resuming the overtaken.

 

[tomuk]

Quite often if somebody is closer to me than I feel safe, I'll slot in behind a lorry to let the past before resuming the overtaken.

Why should you have to pause your manoeuvre? They can either wait or use lane 3 or 4.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why should you have to pause your manoeuvre? They can either wait or use lane 3 or 4.

Defensive driving. It's better to cede your right of way than be involved in an accident, and someone driving aggressively is better in front than behind.

You don't want to have a gravestone saying "Here lies tomuk, he had the right of way".

 

[tomuk]

Defensive driving. It's better to cede your right of way than be involved in an accident, and someone driving aggressively is better in front than behind.

You don't want to have a gravestone saying "Here lies tomuk, he had the right of way".

Great I'll remember to pick up a pack of Werther's Originals when I'm buy my string backed driving gloves.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Great I'll remember to pick up a pack of Werther's Originals when I'm buy my string backed driving gloves.

It isn't boring to drive defensively. You can drive fast but defensively. You can even speed and still be driving defensively.

The key is anticipating others' errors (be they just incompetent or wilful) and, if necessary, deferring to ensure that they do not and cannot result in a collision.

Letting someone past who's too close to your back bumper loses you seconds if that, but guarantees that they won't collide with you if you have to emergency brake.

Another example is not trusting indication on a roundabout and waiting to see when their wheels turn and which way.

 

[zwk500]

Why should you have to pause your manoeuvre? They can either wait or use lane 3 or 4.

And if I'm in lane 3 on a 3 lane motorway?

The key is anticipating others' errors (be they just incompetent or wilful) and, if necessary, deferring to ensure that they do not and cannot result in a collision.

Letting someone past who's too close to your back bumper loses you seconds if that, but guarantees that they won't collide with you if you have to emergency brake.

This

 

[Bikeman78]

Defensive driving. It's better to cede your right of way than be involved in an accident, and someone driving aggressively is better in front than behind.

You don't want to have a gravestone saying "Here lies tomuk, he had the right of way".

I once got effectively stuck in lane 3 near Newport, i.e. no safe gap to move back into lane 2. In any case I was keeping up with the vehicle in front, albeit at quite a distance. There was a tail gating moron behind so I tapped the brake pedal very gently and watched him back off rather rapidly. A few seconds later he got too close again so I repeated the process. He got the message second time around.

thank you, I understand now, although will say in all my years of driving, I’ve very rarely seen either example.

and I don’t driver a Beamer.

There was an example recently on Motorway Cops. Driver weaving in and out and undertaking all over the place. The Policeman was not impressed and pulled him over at the next junction. He was even less impressed to discover a young child in the back seat.

 

[zwk500]

I once got effectively stuck in lane 3 near Newport, i.e. no safe gap to move back into lane 2. In any case I was keeping up with the vehicle in front, albeit at quite a distance. There was a tail gating moron behind so I tapped the brake pedal very gently and watched him back off rather rapidly. A few seconds later he got too close again so I repeated the process. He got the message second time around.

I have done this occasionally, although you have to be incredibly careful to avoid brake checking the vehicle, and.you can never guarantee the vehicle you want to space out won't perform an emergency stop.

 

[tomuk]

It isn't boring to drive defensively. You can drive fast but defensively. You can even speed and still be driving defensively.

The key is anticipating others' errors (be they just incompetent or wilful) and, if necessary, deferring to ensure that they do not and cannot result in a collision.

Letting someone past who's too close to your back bumper loses you seconds if that, but guarantees that they won't collide with you if you have to emergency brake.

Another example is not trusting indication on a roundabout and waiting to see when their wheels turn and which way.

Jeez, can you be anymore patronising. The other poster set out out a scenario where he was carrying out a completely safe overtake in lane 2 but then regularly defers to other road users and aborts his manoeuvre and in doing so carries out further unnecessary manoeuvres 'slotting in' amongst the lorries in lane 1.

I have done this occasionally, although you have to be incredibly careful to avoid brake checking the vehicle, and.you can never guarantee the vehicle you want to space out won't perform an emergency stop.

How by brake checking the car behind, albeit 'incredibly carefully' are you avoiding brake checking the car behind. Just wait and move over, or if necessary gently accelerate and open the gap but don't brake check.

 

[Bikeman78]

I have done this occasionally, although you have to be incredibly careful to avoid brake checking the vehicle, and.you can never guarantee the vehicle you want to space out won't perform an emergency stop.

I wouldn't advocate it but I couldn't move over or out run him (because of the traffic in front) so the only other alternative would have been to slow down gradually but that wouldn't have solved the tailgating problem.

 

[JGurney]

What habits, please?

The only one I remember now (it was a few years ago) was going down through the gears one by one when slowing down for an anticipated stop (e.g. at a light or give-way line). That was what I had been taught to do with a van, but the recommended best practice had changed to staying in the same gear as long as possible then changing through down through multiple gears in one change. The rationale was that the higher the gear the higher the stalling speed, and so the lower the risk of the vehicle unintendedly rolling forward if the driver's foot somehow slipped or was knocked off a pedal.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

The only one I remember now (it was a few years ago) was going down through the gears one by one when slowing down for an anticipated stop (e.g. at a light or give-way line). That was what I had been taught to do with a van, but the recommended best practice had changed to staying in the same gear as long as possible then changing through down through multiple gears in one change. The rationale was that the higher the gear the higher the stalling speed, and so the lower the risk of the vehicle unintendedly rolling forward if the driver's foot somehow slipped or was knocked off a pedal.

Very good, and then as soon as the vehicle stops apply the handbrake and engage neutral.
"Accepted wisdom" seems to change, I read that experts advised there is no need to indicate if you can not see anyone who might observe the signal. But what about the Invisible Person? She might appear a moment after one decided not to indicate. Therefore, I think, one should always always indicate!

 

[AlterEgo]

Another example is not trusting indication on a roundabout and waiting to see when their wheels turn and which way.

I was taught this when learning to drive. It's a good starting point although as you drive more you start getting a sixth sense of when drivers are about to do something stupid. It's all pattern recognition "I knew he was going to do that!" you've probably picked up cues like a tiny inch forward or a glance by the driver which indicates they're going to change direction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Accepted wisdom" seems to change, I read that experts advised there is no need to indicate if you can not see anyone who might observe the signal. But what about the Invisible Person? She might appear a moment after one decided not to indicate. Therefore, I think, one should always always indicate!

I've always agreed with you on this. A habit to always indicate removes a decision (so your brain can think about something else that is going on), might benefit someone who you've not seen and cannot cause harm. The only time you should not indicate is where to do so may cause confusion, e.g. it might be a bad idea to indicate to change lanes left on a dual carriageway directly adjacent to a turning off the road, as someone turning on may think you're indicating to leave the road and pull in front of you, though realistically it's best just to stay in the outside lane until the junction is passed in that case because you then can't cause confusion, and it's probably helpful to let them out anyway. There are very few cases where to indicate might cause confusion and where the manoeuvre isn't questionable to start with, and they're generally pretty obvious when you encounter them.

I was taught this when learning to drive. It's a good starting point although as you drive more you start getting a sixth sense of when drivers are about to do something stupid. It's all pattern recognition "I knew he was going to do that!" you've probably picked up cues like a tiny inch forward or a glance by the driver which indicates they're going to change direction.

Yes, "driver's intuition" is incredibly powerful, as can be eye contact. It'd be interesting to see if young drivers who have cycled a lot have fewer accidents than those who haven't, as they'll already have developed this, and for more important reasons (avoiding a higher likelihood of death rather than a dent and a bit of scuffed paint) too.

 

[LowLevel]

I was taught this when learning to drive. It's a good starting point although as you drive more you start getting a sixth sense of when drivers are about to do something stupid. It's all pattern recognition "I knew he was going to do that!" you've probably picked up cues like a tiny inch forward or a glance by the driver which indicates they're going to change direction.

Ahh, roundabouts. There is one near me that is notorious for collisions (and don't even start about the pedestrian crossings on the exit of the roundabout at all sides that cause traffic to stack up on it in a heartbeat).

It runs into a dual carriageway on 2 sides and single carriageways on the other 2 sides, paired dual to dual and single to single.

The lane markings allow for both lanes on the roundabout to exit on to the dual carriageway, outer lane to left hand lane, inner lane to right hand lane.

Just beyond the roundabout and obligatory pedestrian crossing on the dual carriageway is a McDonalds with a drive through that you can only reach in one direction by going all the way around the roundabout.

I've lost count of the number of prangs and near prangs I've seen where someone has gone all the way around the inside of the roundabout and is therefore in the inner lane and indicating off. Seeing this someone wanting to turn left goes to move off into the left hand lane assuming they'll stay wide into the right hand lane of the dual carriageway, as per the lane markings.

Nope, they both want to go to McDonalds and at the last second the person in the inner lane on the roundabout cuts across the outer lane to be in the left hand lane for McDonalds with horn blaring and lights flashing at the person turning left for "cutting them up".

I just don't pull out when people come round indicating off. Smashing my car up isn't worth it.

 

[route101]

I see undertaking on the motorway often. I was on the M40 few weeks back and someone kept going from lane 1 to lane 3 a few times without using lane 2 at all. I thought that was very odd.

Tailgaters are a nightmare, bullies of the road. Driving is all about ego and one upmanship.

 

[nlogax]

Driving is all about ego and one upmanship.

Which is we need more awareness and education of defensive driving. There is no more valuable skill on the road. Although worth acknowledging that the fine art of anticipation is something that can only really come with thousands of miles of experience under your belt, becoming attuned to numpties and their habits along the way.

 

[zwk500]

Which is we need more awareness and education of defensive driving. There is no more valuable skill on the road. Although worth acknowledging that the fine art of anticipation is something that can only really come with thousands of miles of experience under your belt, becoming attuned to numpties and their habits along the way.

This is all true, although anticipation would be easier to gain experience with if the overall standard of driving was more consistent.

 

[MotCO]

This is all true, although anticipation would be easier to gain experience with if the overall standard of driving was more consistent.

No, just assume all other drivers are lunatics

 

[zwk500]

No, just assume all other drivers are lunatics

Works wonderfully until you get a terrified middle-aged person sticking rigidly to 60mph in lane 2. Although 'It's a BMW, let it through' works quite well as a life-preserving strategy