Journeyman
Established Member
- Joined
- 16 Apr 2014
- Messages
- 6,295
I don't see any of that from antivaxxers, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯I'm seeing a lot of emotive rhetoric, and not a lot of facts, evidence and logic.
I don't see any of that from antivaxxers, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯I'm seeing a lot of emotive rhetoric, and not a lot of facts, evidence and logic.
I don't see any of that from antivaxxers, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm well aware that the vaccine is not perfect. However people have a bad habit of mistaking that for it being useless, like you do in the rest of the comment.It is quite clear vaccination does not guarantee no transmission, so for me this makes any arguments about endangering others worthless.
I was replying to someone who seemed to unironically use the phrase "facts and logic". If you're aware of the context behind that phrase and who uses it, you'll understand why I replied the way I did.Remind us again who the childish one is?
I made it very clear near the top of my comment that the framing of vaccines as a freedom issue and a choice is something I strongly disagree with because endangering others is not freedom.
I try to think of what the most vulnerable in society are going through. Imagine being unable to be vaccinated for a very good reason and having a weak immune system, and hearing others talk about maintaining your safety by doing a tiny little, easy, insignificant thing as a choice and wanting the "rights" of those putting you in danger to be respected. You'd be pretty angry with them, wouldn't you?
The issue is that the benefits of the vaccine are largely for the individual. Vaccine passports are pretty pointless because being surrounded by vaccinated people doesn't make you much safer. If the vaccine had only a small effect on hospitalisations and deaths but reduced transmission by 90%+ (essentially the other way around to now), then there might be a stronger case for some kind of certification. But as it stands the way this vaccine works, passports don't seem like they'd have much benefit.I'm well aware that the vaccine is not perfect. However people have a bad habit of mistaking that for it being useless, like you do in the rest of the comment.
Driving cars is inherently unsafe. There's no escaping that. However, people don't oppose seatbelts and airbags on the grounds that they are not guaranteed to save your life.
Its not endangering others though when transmission is no different between vaccinated and unvaccinated. I would feel equally as safe in a nightclub full of 1,000 vaccinated people as i would to a nightclub full of 1,000 unvaccinated people.In what way is it fascist to support policy that saves lives? I made it very clear near the top of my comment that the framing of vaccines as a freedom issue and a choice is something I strongly disagree with because endangering others is not freedom.
My support of vaccine passports is mainly motivated by the fact that as a country, we seem to have ruled out another strict lockdown. Whether or not governments stick to this remains to be seen, but the way I see it, if we're going to insist on super-spreader events like concerts and football matches with live audiences going ahead, the least we can do is ensure that the transmissibility is reduced as much as possible. Which the vaccine ensures. Not very well, and I recognise that, as you said in your comment. But something is better than nothing.The issue is that the benefits of the vaccine are largely for the individual. Vaccine passports are pretty pointless because being surrounded by vaccinated people doesn't make you much safer. If the vaccine had only a small effect on hospitalisations and deaths but reduced transmission by 90%+ (essentially the other way around to now), then there might be a stronger case for some kind of certification. But as it stands the way this vaccine works, passports don't seem like they'd have much benefit.
Also, I wouldn't be as strongly against them if it was just about vaccination. For me it's really the principle. I'm deeply uncomfortable with the way we're becoming more and more of a papers please society. Why should we have to present medical papers just to go about our lives? And this could well be the thin end of the wedge - if they can introduce vaccine passports, what will it be next?
I'm well aware that the vaccine is not perfect.
Driving cars is inherently unsafe. There's no escaping that. However, people don't oppose seatbelts and airbags on the grounds that they are not guaranteed to save your life.
I don't see any of that from antivaxxers, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Again, you're treating "not perfect" as the same as "useless", here. It's a fallacy. Stop doing it.Having the vaccine is mainly about giving one's self a good protection against the effects of Covid.
If *anyone* can take the vaccine, get asymptomatic Covid, and pass it on to someone at risk of a bad Covid outcome then I'm afraid any argument about transmission is worthless to me, and we'd be better off investing capital in looking at what can be done to protect that group of people, the vast majority of whom will already have the protections offered by the vaccine.
The evidence doesn’t support that view either - there is reduced transmission with a vaccination.Its not endangering others though when transmission is no different between vaccinated and unvaccinated. I would feel equally as safe in a nightclub full of 1,000 vaccinated people as i would to a nightclub full of 1,000 unvaccinated people.
If you think this sounds extreme, consider that it's illegal to intentionally spread HIV to other people.
Again, you're treating "not perfect" as the same as "useless", here. It's a fallacy. Stop doing it.
Vaccines do reduce transmission of the virus so all other factors being equal, the virus will spread less through 1000 vaccinated people at an event than through 1000 unvaccinated people. And I agree that measures to protect people should be much stricter, such as more lockdowns, but that would be an awkward backtrack for Boris Johnson to make so I can understand why he's reluctant to recommend it. It's not really justified, but I can see what motivates him.
Is there? Last time I checked one minute it was like reported at say 90% then to be debunked at something like 30% and again in the media so what is fact and what is fiction in all this? For a pandemic it’s becoming more of a media spectacle really with overblown reporting without the proper scrutiny regardless.The evidence doesn’t support that view either - there is reduced transmission with a vaccination.
The evidence doesn’t support that view either - there is reduced transmission with a vaccination.
Yet some recent reports suggest the Delta variant is just as transmissable either way. Who to believe.
What’s the end game in your grand plan of harsh restrictions and medical segregation? Covid is here to stay, like it or not.Again, you're treating "not perfect" as the same as "useless", here. It's a fallacy. Stop doing it.
Vaccines do reduce transmission of the virus so all other factors being equal, the virus will spread less through 1000 vaccinated people at an event than through 1000 unvaccinated people. And I agree that measures to protect people should be much stricter, such as more lockdowns, but that would be an awkward backtrack for Boris Johnson to make so I can understand why he's reluctant to recommend it. It's not really justified, but I can see what motivates him.
Knowing someone who died as a result of Covid being passed on by someone who *was* vaccinated (and who might well have been more careful had they not been), I find this pretty unpalatable to be honest.
It is quite clear vaccination does not guarantee no transmission, so for me this makes any arguments about endangering others worthless.
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."Not very well, and I recognise that, as you said in your comment. But something is better than nothing.
Would you say the same about smoking, say? Or about the flu jab, which is optional and always has been? Where do you draw the line?Refusing the vaccine is morally no different from bioterrorism in my opinion, justifying extremely harsh penalties against those who aren't vaccinated.
I would say quite the opposite. Sajid Javid said only yesterday that he would be foolish to rule any measure out.My support of vaccine passports is mainly motivated by the fact that as a country, we seem to have ruled out another strict lockdown.
At what point does your grand plan envisage returning to, oh, I don't know, normal life? Are you seriously suggesting that's just going to be the way we should live forever more - staying at home hiding from the world?Whether or not governments stick to this remains to be seen, but the way I see it, if we're going to insist on super-spreader events like concerts and football matches with live audiences going ahead
This is completely at odds with the fact that Covid has become an endemic virus. Preventing transmission is pretty pointless. But even if it did make sense...the least we can do is ensure that the transmissibility is reduced as much as possible
Forcing people to be vaccinated is not the answer. As you yourself admit, it has very limited effectiveness in reducing transmission. None of the vaccines were designed to do so, and with the Delta variant they no longer really succeed in doing so.Which the vaccine ensures. Not very well, and I recognise that, as you said in your comment. But something is better than nothing.
This is an utterly false dichotomy. 89% of people aged 16+ have now been vaccinated at least once. Do you seriously believe that, if you forcibly administered the vaccine into the arms of the other 11% (or "persuaded" them through vaccine passports), this would suddenly make Covid disappear overnight?Vaccine passports suck and I cannot stand that the vaccinated have to put up with crap like this because some people refuse to take this virus seriously.
Ah, I see. So despite England being unlocked for more than 2 months without any major issues, we should lock down again, just to be on the safe side. Gosh, I bet you're fun at parties...Given the case numbers, I'd say more lockdowns and criminalising vaccine refusal are a better, safer course of action.
Again, you're treating "not perfect" as the same as "useless", here. It's a fallacy. Stop doing it.
Vaccines do reduce transmission of the virus so all other factors being equal, the virus will spread less through 1000 vaccinated people at an event than through 1000 unvaccinated people. And I agree that measures to protect people should be much stricter, such as more lockdowns, but that would be an awkward backtrack for Boris Johnson to make so I can understand why he's reluctant to recommend it. It's not really justified, but I can see what motivates him.
Plus it should be as difficult to be willfully unvaccinated as possible for reasons I outlined in my initial comment. Refusing the vaccine is morally no different from bioterrorism in my opinion, justifying extremely harsh penalties against those who aren't vaccinated. If you think this sounds extreme, consider that it's illegal to intentionally spread HIV to other people. Again, I realise that vaccines aren't perfect, but still any reduction in transmission is better than nothing at all.
Is the change of mind being driven by the recent polliing showing a tie and a Labour lead?
I have always said politicians are more frightened of loosing power than anything else.
You do realise that you affect other people's lives every moment of every interaction? From passing on infections, to a simple smile, you might in some way affect someone's life for the positive or the negative. This whole "because others" narrative is almost as bad, maybe worse than the "must save NHS" one because it ignores the reality of life. It was used simply as a blunt tool to guilt people into staying in their boxes when told, wearing masks right through to vaccines when told. That some people have taken it upon themselves to follow this with religious zeal.Somewhat disappointing and rather predictable move and the existing vaccine passport scheme in Scotland does not go far enough. I do not understand the "freedom" and "personal choice" framing used in conversations about vaccinations and related policy, because it's not a personal choice if it affects others. Even if was truly for your own protection and your own protection alone, what freedom, exactly, is lost by being forced into getting vaccinated? The freedom to die a painful, preventable death or be left with devastating long covid? And those consequences of refusing the vaccine make it no longer just a personal choice again. You may have family or friends who depend on you. You may be making their lifes significantly harder by refusing to take responsibilty for your own health.
Ire does deserve focusing there, but also - and much more - on the pseudo science and associated briefing that is misrepresenting the risk associated with these vaccines; the latest example being the paper by Roeg et al.You do realise that you affect other people's lives every moment of every interaction? From passing on infections, to a simple smile, you might in some way affect someone's life for the positive or the negative. This whole "because others" narrative is almost as bad, maybe worse than the "must save NHS" one because it ignores the reality of life. It was used simply as a blunt tool to guilt people into staying in their boxes when told, wearing masks right through to vaccines when told. That some people have taken it upon themselves to follow this with religious zeal.
Now that's not to say we shouldn't encourage people to go for the vaccine, of course we should, we can see the results already. But everyone should have the right to make their own choices, for most adults in the UK yet to have a vaccine (now just over 10% for the first dose, less than 20% for the second) this should not involve closing off parts of life, or labelling them as selfish. Many people still do have genuine concerns, they have watched as governments across the world have procrastinated over the various different vaccines & if they are safe for younger people, or indeed safe for people at all. If I were in the 16-30 year old bracket I too would be concerned, because governments & their experts have helped make them sound more dangerous to younger people than they really are. If you want to be angry at someone, I would suggest looking at these politicians first.
I am a season ticket holder at Newcastle United and there have been no checks at all regarding Covid.There has been - by the clubs not the Government. This thing by the back door is the concern
Somewhat disappointing and rather predictable move and the existing vaccine passport scheme in Scotland does not go far enough. I do not understand the "freedom" and "personal choice" framing used in conversations about vaccinations and related policy, because it's not a personal choice if it affects others. Even if was truly for your own protection and your own protection alone, what freedom, exactly, is lost by being forced into getting vaccinated? The freedom to die a painful, preventable death or be left with devastating long covid? And those consequences of refusing the vaccine make it no longer just a personal choice again. You may have family or friends who depend on you. You may be making their lifes significantly harder by refusing to take responsibilty for your own health.
The willfully unvaccinated are treated with an entirely un-earned and un-justifiable respect in discourse about COVID. Why do I have to feel sorry for people being banned from nightclubs for refusing to do the absolute bare minimum to protect their own and the public's health? If they don't like being refused entry, vaccines are free and extremely easy to get. I got my second dose at a drop-in center without pre-arranging an appointment. I've had to put up with a lot of my freedoms being lost and losing out on many social experiences and aspects of college life because of COVID. Things that would not be necessary by now if the vaccine was treated not as a choice, but as a duty. Which it obviously should be by anyone who recognises the severity of the COVID situation.
The only valid reason I recognise for not getting vaccinated is genuine medical exemption, and such exemptions are accounted for in vaccine passport schemes. Any other reason for refusing the vaccine is just a childish "I DON'T WANNA!" temper tantrum to me. We're adults. Learning to do things you don't necessarily want to do for the sake of society as a whole, as well as your own friends and family is a part of maturity. Yes, vaccine side effects suck, but I have had COVID which really puts the vaccine side-effects into perspective. I suffered the worst fatigue of my life for a whole month, and my case was mild. I don't understand why anyone would want to voluntarily put themselves in danger of that, and worse.
The fact that we're even discussing measures which try to coerce people into getting vaccinated shows the disturbing influence of anti-intellectualism in society. In a media-literate and educated society, the need to get vaccinated and lock down early and for prolonged periods would be obvious to everyone and we'd be done with COVID by now. If you are "vaccine-hesitant", I'd love to see the qualifications and research you have in order to conclusively prove that getting vaccinated is objectively more dangerous than catching COVID. Such evidence would be especially groundbreaking given how much deadlier some of the new variants are.
The vaccines have been offered to every adult at this point. Therefore all unvaccinated adults are willfully unvaccinated. I'm sick of the government pandering to them. It's causing COVID's emergency pandemic phase to stretch on longer, and it's causing unvaccinated people with medical exemptions to needlessly die.
Or the Conservative party conference being in October?Is the change of mind being driven by the recent polliing showing a tie and a Labour lead?
I have always said politicians are more frightened of loosing power than anything else.
I think all Premier League fans should boycott games and lets test that "football is all about the fans" chat we heard from the clubs when the break away league threatened! The problem is football fans will shop themselves in to see their teams at any cost.I am a season ticket holder at Newcastle United and there have been no checks at all regarding Covid.
Why would a football club want to bring in Covid checks through the back door? It makes no commercial sense. When i bought my season ticket there was nothing in the T&Cs saying you needed to be vaccinated to gain entry to the stadium.
I am not sure what you are getting at. From a Covid point of view, i have no reason to boycott games as there are no Covid requirements at Newcastle.I think all Premier League fans should boycott games and lets test that "football is all about the fans" chat we heard from the clubs when the break away league threatened! The problem is football fans will shop themselves in to see their teams at any cost.