Vaccine Passports - currently being considered in Scotland & Wales

[Watershed]

But, given that we also know now that vaccination doesn't prevent transmission of the virus anyway - so there isn't really that much benefit to older people anyway - why are we still pushing ahead? I can only see two possible reasons:

- 'doing something', and they've run out of other people to 'do' - though the 'boosters' may be about to solve that problem for a little longer. If that's the case I can't overstate how deeply unethical that is.

- pushing 'vaccine passports'.

With the Delta variant having massively impacted the vaccine's efficicacy in terms of reducing transmission, the only remaining justification seems to be that vaccination lessens the burden of Covid on the NHS. This means we can 'afford' to have more cases and can therefore 'afford' to have fewer restrictions/measures in place.

It's still bonkers to introduce vaccine passports off the back of that.

 

[MikeWM]

[cynic]Because contracts have been let to various companies who will run the vaccine passport scheme. These companies may or may not have Tory shareholders.[/cynic]

Admittedly I suspect there may be a pivot back to tests over vaccinations for the 'passport' sometime soon, when they realise that making everyone have tests multiple times a week will raise rather more money for their friends than a vaccination every six months.

 

[Cdd89]

At every age, there is a benefit to being vaccinated as compared to contracting Covid. It is of course very marginal at younger ages, but it is true at every age.

The confounding factor is that, so far, it’s been assumed that being infected with Covid is not an inevitability; so the probability of infection also had to be taken into account.

As it becomes increasingly evident that everyone will be infected sooner or later, that strengthens the case for vaccinating younger people.

 

[MikeWM]

At every age, there is a benefit to being vaccinated as compared to contracting Covid. It is of course very marginal at younger ages, but it is true at every age.

The confounding factor is that, so far, it’s been assumed that being infected with Covid is not an inevitability; so the probability of infection also had to be taken into account.

As it becomes increasingly evident that everyone will be infected sooner or later, that strengthens the case for vaccinating younger people.

I thought it was fairly obvious that everyone would be exposed to the virus at some point or other all the way back in March 2020, when it was clear that trying to contain the virus had failed. Personally, I've operated on that principle ever since.

I suppose if we'd got vaccinations that prevented transmission then it was a possibility that some could avoid it, but even if that were the case - and it isn't - it is basically impossible to stop a virus that also can live in other animals, as this one does.

In any event, the above argument assumes that vaccination has zero potential downsides. As with all medical treatments, that is not the case. There is a benefit/risk balance to be considered.

 

[87electric]

As others have stated, this is no longer about a virus. The virus threat will be strung out ad infinitum until we all have these vaccine passports. Coercion with fear. It will then morph into a catch all digital information ID passport. Permission to move around in society in every way imaginable. It’s not a dream as tech companies already invest in that type of digital future.
Tech does have the ability to enhance human life, but it also has the power to restrict human life.
Being nudged and coerced into a restrictive future is not what I want for myself and certainly not my kids or grandkids.
Is it really necessary for human biometrics, on digital apps, to prove who you are? Think about the pros and cons on that one for a minute.

 

[NorthKent1989]

It won’t stop with Nightclubs and sports & music events either.

Soon it’ll extend to gyms, pubs, restaurants, hotels, then grocery stores.

When is enough, truly enough? Do the Passport Supporters really think it’ll be two jabs and they’ll be in the highest tier in society? It’ll three jabs then four, five, ten, etc, the compliant ones have given the political classes an inch and they have taken not just a mile but a million miles.

What will happen when the number of people getting boosters drop drastically? Businesses will then shut up for good and it’ll be a permanent lockdown.

This isn’t me being hyperbolic, the last 18 months have shown me that what was once a conspiracy theory can become a reality very quickly.

 

[theblackwatch]

The vast majority of folk won't mind about vaccine passports etc, and will just get on with their lives, showing it where necessary. The other dozen or so people can spend their time on here justifying their stance and getting wound up about it.

 

[NorthOxonian]

The vast majority of folk won't mind about vaccine passports etc, and will just get on with their lives, showing it where necessary. The other dozen or so people can spend their time on here justifying their stance and getting wound up about it.

I think that's quite simplistic. There will be a lot of people who are deeply uncomfortable with the idea of vaccine passports (these people may or may not be openly opposing them now) but will go along with them once they're introduced. The two aren't mutually exclusive - you can think something is a terrible idea but also put up with it because it's needed to function in society.

It's certainly the view I take at this point - I hate the idea of vaccine passports and the fact we're probably going to turn into a papers please society for years to come (if not forever). It's clearly a massive overreaction. But at the same time, I'm pragmatic - this is almost certainly happening and there's nothing I can do to stop it - so if I have to use one I will. Though don't expect me (or anyone else) to stop grumbling about it.

 

[Smidster]

The vast majority of folk won't mind about vaccine passports etc, and will just get on with their lives, showing it where necessary. The other dozen or so people can spend their time on here justifying their stance and getting wound up about it.

So you aren't remotely upset about a restriction being brought in that imposes costs on everyone in society and creates a two-tier system of citizens with absolutely zero public health justification that can be rescinded at a moments notice because the Government decides it is too long since you last a booster jab?

Sure - You and I will be fine and won't have our privileges taken away for the moment but that doesn't make it right.

And for those thinking it won't happen - a plan for VPs has just been announced by Sturgeon for Scotland to be voted on next week.

 

[DustyBin]

The vast majority of folk won't mind about vaccine passports etc, and will just get on with their lives, showing it where necessary. The other dozen or so people can spend their time on here justifying their stance and getting wound up about it.

I really don't think you understand the wider implications. At some point people are going to look back and reflect on what life used to be like and ask themselves how we got to where we're heading, and for what....

 

[bramling]

The vast majority of folk won't mind about vaccine passports etc, and will just get on with their lives, showing it where necessary. The other dozen or so people can spend their time on here justifying their stance and getting wound up about it.

It isn’t a road I want to go down. There would have to be some extremely clear and proven scientific reasons to do it - and on the contrary it now increasingly looks like being vaccinated does little to reduce transmission.

We have to ask the question why we would collectively embrace a measure which is clearly ineffective?

I’ve found it irritating enough to have to pre-book stuff over the last year, and yearn to be able just to walk in to places like we were able to up until last year. The last thing I want is anything more.

The more we all acquiesce to these sorts of barely justified invasive measures thinly justified on “public health” grounds, the more will creep in over time. We’re already seeing that, and when things do come in look how hard they are to shake off, look no further than another ineffective measure in the form of masks for an example of that. The more we all push back the better, whilst grumbling on here isn’t going to do much, the more people don’t comply with the silly stuff the more chance we stand of ridding ourselves of it. If we don’t then it’s here forever.

 

[Watershed]

And for those thinking it won't happen - a plan for VPs has just been announced by Sturgeon for Scotland to be voted on next week.

She says she is doing it "to stem the recent surge in cases". Except...

More than 90% of the Scottish 16+ population are already partially or fully vaccinated. And it takes nearly 3 months for protection to fully kick in after your second dose.

Let's be extremely generous and assume that introducing vaccine passports convinces half of the remaining 'stragglers' to get vaccinated.

So how is getting an additional 5% of the 16+ population (i.e. 4% of the overall population) fully vaccinated - in 3 months time - going to make a jot of difference?

It's a total charade.

 

[bramling]

She says she is doing it "to stem the recent surge in cases". Except...

More than 90% of the Scottish 16+ population are already partially or fully vaccinated. And it takes nearly 3 months for protection to fully kick in after your second dose.

Let's be extremely generous and assume that introducing vaccine passports convinces half of the remaining 'stragglers' to get vaccinated.

So how is getting an additional 5% of the 16+ population (i.e. 4% of the overall population) fully vaccinated - in 3 months time - going to make a jot of difference?

It's a total charade.

Just another example of politicians being seen to make some kind of “response”.

Has any politician here been honest enough to go on record saying that Covid is now endemic, we stand no chance of eliminating it now, herd immunity doesn’t seem to be happening, so trying to stem rising cases is really like trying to drain the ocean?

One element to any inquiry into our Covid response should be a good hard look to see how much effect each mitigation measure actually had. It does seem increasingly the case that quite a few measures were to little if any benefit, and there’s a lesson in there somewhere.

 

[HSTEd]

And there we go - social credit here we come.

Sturgeon is already threatening to extend it to all hospitality settings.

 

[MikeWM]

The vast majority of folk won't mind about vaccine passports etc, and will just get on with their lives, showing it where necessary.

Sadly you're probably right, and until they get to the point where you're not allowed to buy food this week or go to work on a train, because your phone is broken or there is some admin error on a government database - or you've done something the government doesn't approve of - perhaps they never will. By then it will be far too late.

Meanwhile those who do mind, and rather enjoyed a society where we were free to do what we liked within the law, without government permission to undergo everyday activities or showing our papers to all and sundry, will try to stop this before we get to that point.

 

[Bantamzen]

The vast majority of folk won't mind about vaccine passports etc, and will just get on with their lives, showing it where necessary. The other dozen or so people can spend their time on here justifying their stance and getting wound up about it.

They wont mind until they fall foul of it. They might start off being mandated for nightclubs, large gatherings, international travel etc, but I fully expect mission creep here. So if allowed to become commonplace it's only a matter of time before more places are ordered to require them. It could end up being required for everything, going to the cinema, vaccine passport please, going to the restaurant, pub, supermarket. Vaccine passport please. And before you say "so what", here's a little thought for you. Do you think covid vaccine boosters would be forever free, especially under this government? Because I don't.

People who can't be bothered to consider the potential problems with health passports are giving a free pass to a future government to impose stricter and stricter controls on them, to the point where we could end up with a variant of the Chinese social credit system whereby the government effectively decides what, where and when you can do things. Imagine for example going to a train station and being told you cannot travel because you are deemed untrustworthy. Look it up, then tell me you still don't have a problem with it.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The vast majority of folk won't mind about vaccine passports etc, and will just get on with their lives, showing it where necessary. The other dozen or so people can spend their time on here justifying their stance and getting wound up about it.

Maybe….until they miss their 6th booster shot and are deemed “unclean”

So you’re okay with this sinister medical apartheid creeping in then? Because pretty soon the unvaxxed won’t be allowed in supermarkets, can you honestly say you’re fine with this? if you are I suggest you examine your beliefs.

And I think you’ll find it’s a bit more than a dozen people, especially if it comes down to the boosters

 

[theblackwatch]

Maybe….until they miss their 6th booster shot and are deemed “unclean”

So you’re okay with this sinister medical apartheid creeping in then? Because pretty soon the unvaxxed won’t be allowed in supermarkets, can you honestly say you’re fine with this? if you are I suggest you examine your beliefs.

And I think you’ll find it’s a bit more than a dozen people, especially if it comes down to the boosters

Thanks, I have done so and still have the same opinion. Having had a cancer scare in the past couple of years, I'm not going to worry about showing a piece of paper or an app on my phone.

I'm fine with people being unvaxxed, but if they choose to do so, they have to live with any restrictions imposed on them. Their choice...

 

[Green tractor]

Maybe….until they miss their 6th booster shot and are deemed “unclean”

So you’re okay with this sinister medical apartheid creeping in then? Because pretty soon the unvaxxed won’t be allowed in supermarkets, can you honestly say you’re fine with this? if you are I suggest you examine your beliefs.

And I think you’ll find it’s a bit more than a dozen people, especially if it comes down to the boosters

I think you need to look up the term apartheid, under a apartheid system you have absolutely no choice which side of the line you are, and there is nothing you can do to change that.

 

[abn444]

Thanks, I have done so and still have the same opinion. Having had a cancer scare in the past couple of years, I'm not going to worry about showing a piece of paper or an app on my phone.

I'm fine with people being unvaxxed, but if they choose to do so, they have to live with any restrictions imposed on them. Their choice...

I suggest you move to China or North Korea then, you'll be much happier there

 

[Bantamzen]

Thanks, I have done so and still have the same opinion. Having had a cancer scare in the past couple of years, I'm not going to worry about showing a piece of paper or an app on my phone.

I'm fine with people being unvaxxed, but if they choose to do so, they have to live with any restrictions imposed on them. Their choice...

And what if one day the government decides you can't have that bit of paper?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Thanks, I have done so and still have the same opinion. Having had a cancer scare in the past couple of years, I'm not going to worry about showing a piece of paper or an app on my phone.

I'm fine with people being unvaxxed, but if they choose to do so, they have to live with any restrictions imposed on them. Their choice...

You clearly aren’t fine with unvaccinated people or else you wouldn’t be so gleeful at a two tier society.

Covid isn’t even in the top five U.K. biggest killers, yet you advocate for such a hysterical response.

You do realise that being vaccinated doesn’t mean you won’t get Covid nor will it stop the spread, so the only reason why you’d want passports is because you want segregation, simple as

As @abn444 says, move to North Korea or just stay in Britain since you’re a fan of communism or fascism.

I think you need to look up the term apartheid, under a apartheid system you have absolutely no choice which side of the line you are, and there is nothing you can do to change that.

And we have a choice now? Take a jab or you can’t socialise? Maybe it is you who needs to consult the history books

And what if one day the government decides you can't have that bit of paper?

Then people like @theblackwatch will
Be the first to complain that they’re being penalised

 

[BJames]

Thanks, I have done so and still have the same opinion. Having had a cancer scare in the past couple of years, I'm not going to worry about showing a piece of paper or an app on my phone.

I'm fine with people being unvaxxed, but if they choose to do so, they have to live with any restrictions imposed on them. Their choice...

I am 20 years old and myself and all of my friends bar one has had both vaccines. We are all in agreement that vaccine passports are fundamentally wrong.

I would only ever be able to understand if it significantly reduced transmission. Now that it has been regularly argued that vaccination does not reduce transmission, there is no argument to introduce vaccine passports.

E.g. See Denmark here

From September 10, Denmark will remove all domestic restrictions related to Covid-19. In a news release, Danish minister of health Magnus Heunicke said the country’s high vaccination rate means the pandemic is “under control” in Denmark and is no longer a “critical threat to society.”


The move means Danes will no longer need to show a coronavirus certificate to enter restaurants, nightclubs or large events. However, the travel and border restrictions remain in place for now.

and Ireland here

DUBLIN, Aug 31 (Reuters) - Ireland, which had one of Europe's longest COVID-19 lockdowns, will drop almost all pandemic restrictions in October after one of the continent's most successful vaccine rollouts, Prime Minister Micheal Martin said on Tuesday.

From Oct. 22, the requirement for vaccine certificates in bars and restaurants will be dropped, as will all restrictions on the numbers attending indoor and outdoor events.

These countries are not necessarily known for following the light touch approach that Sweden (which many argue for and against on here) has done, and yet they are both removing the Covid pass - Denmark in 10 days, Ireland next month. How we can introduce it here as others are removing it shows that it is far from internationally-recognised as being effective, and it's really a step backwards, one that I absolutely do not want to take. Again, I have had both vaccines so the implementation of this will not stop me from doing day-to-day activities, but it is not right to stop those who do not wish to take the vaccine from taking part in these same activities.

 

[Yew]

They wont mind until they fall foul of it. They might start off being mandated for nightclubs, large gatherings, international travel etc, but I fully expect mission creep here. So if allowed to become commonplace it's only a matter of time before more places are ordered to require them. It could end up being required for everything, going to the cinema, vaccine passport please, going to the restaurant, pub, supermarket. Vaccine passport please. And before you say "so what", here's a little thought for you. Do you think covid vaccine boosters would be forever free, especially under this government? Because I don't.

People who can't be bothered to consider the potential problems with health passports are giving a free pass to a future government to impose stricter and stricter controls on them, to the point where we could end up with a variant of the Chinese social credit system whereby the government effectively decides what, where and when you can do things. Imagine for example going to a train station and being told you cannot travel because you are deemed untrustworthy. Look it up, then tell me you still don't have a problem with it.

Don't worry, they'll only be around for three weeks, to 'save the nhs'

 

[theblackwatch]

I suggest you move to China or North Korea then, you'll be much happier there

I'm quite happy here thanks. Hopefully the rest of you are too?

 

[NorthKent1989]

I'm quite happy here thanks. Hopefully the rest of you are too?

Are you for real or are you trolling? Do you even grasp or understand what these domestic vaccine passports could mean for society as a whole?

Such measures could be the gateway to racial or classist segregation, they are no different to “No blacks no Irish no dogs” signs, my grandmother is of mixed origin and she grew up in the 50s and 60s with those disgusting signs outside pubs or boarding houses.

If you don’t think this passport won’t lead to some form of racism then you’re utterly naive.

We can no longer call ourselves a free country if we think we can dictate to what people do with their own bodies.

Don't worry, they'll only be around for three weeks, to 'save the nhs'

Don’t be silly! Put your tin foil hst

 

[theblackwatch]

Are you for real or are you trolling? Do you even grasp or understand what these domestic vaccine passports could mean for society as a whole?

Such measures could be the gateway to racial or classist segregation, they are no different to “No blacks no Irish no dogs” signs, my grandmother is of mixed origin and she grew up in the 50s and 60s with those disgusting signs outside pubs or boarding houses.

If you don’t think this passport won’t lead to some form of racism then you’re utterly naive.

We can no longer call ourselves a free country if we think we can dictate to what people do with their own bodies.

The one thing I do like about this particular area of the forum is the friendliness towards anyone who has an opposing view to those who practically live in this section. It does quite amuse me to discover that anyone who isn't anti-vaccine passport appears to be considered to be a fan of fascism.

I'll leave you to live in the world where you think nearly everyone agrees with you, but would also be genuinely interested, given that you think I should move to North Korea ( ), which country you would prefer to be in yourself at this present time, based on it's policies?

 

[Smidster]

Thanks, I have done so and still have the same opinion. Having had a cancer scare in the past couple of years, I'm not going to worry about showing a piece of paper or an app on my phone.

I'm fine with people being unvaxxed, but if they choose to do so, they have to live with any restrictions imposed on them. Their choice...

Firstly I hope that you are well.

But I can't agree with your opinion here.

There is no evidence that there is a public health benefit to having Vaccine Passports - It is not the case that the unvaccinated pose a unique risk to someone who is vaccinated and it is not the case that a vaccinated person cannot still infect someone else who has been vaccinated.

It is the unvaccinated who are putting themselves at risk by entering those environments - While I would obviously encourage people to do so that is their decision and is really none of my business.

Any restriction should only be introduced if there is a cast-iron evidence base for it and there simply isn't one but they do impose massive costs on all of us.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The one thing I do like about this particular area of the forum is the friendliness towards anyone who has an opposing view to those who practically live in this section. It does quite amuse me to discover that anyone who isn't anti-vaccine passport appears to be considered to be a fan of fascism.

I'll leave you to live in the world where you think nearly everyone agrees with you, but would also be genuinely interested, given that you think I should move to North Korea ( ), which country you would prefer to be in yourself at this present time, based on it's policies?

Not being funny but it’s a bit hard for me to be friendly with anyone who proposes a two tier society and discrimination.

I also like how those who are content with this have completely ignored the very likely outcomes of such measures, couldn’t help but notice you completely ignored the experiences faced by my grandmother growing up in the 50s and 60s in certain parts of this country so forgive me if I don’t tolerate intolerance and apartheid.

 

[Green tractor]

Not being funny but it’s a bit hard for me to be friendly with anyone who proposes a two tier society and discrimination.

I also like how those who are content with this have completely ignored the very likely outcomes of such measures, couldn’t help but notice you completely ignored the experiences faced by my grandmother growing up in the 50s and 60s in certain parts of this country so forgive me if I don’t tolerate intolerance and apartheid.

You need to look up the definition of arphartied, it is not a matter of personal choice, and not something you can change.