Vaccine Passports - currently being considered in Scotland & Wales

[Smidster]

I think that worrying about variants is a bit of a red herring when it comes to Vaccine Passports - The virus will continue to evolve until the end of time just like every other virus has done since the dawn of history. Over time some of those may overcome our current protections to some extent but even with Delta we have good protection and to be honest it is less of a vaccinated v unvaccinated thing more.

To me to justify Vaccine Passports you have to show some evidence that the presence of an unvaccinated individual poses a unique risk to someone who is vaccinated as otherwise it is just someone putting themselves at greater risk which may be reckless but a personal choice (kind of like bike helmets - riding a bike without a helmet is clearly more risky than riding with one but the consequences of that decision lay mainly with the cyclist)

The best argument I have heard is that the easier you make spread in the unvaccinated then the greater the potential impact on hospitals which could impact healthcare for others.

Of course most people should get vaccinated - but they should do so on their own terms and when they are ready - Not because "Government Says So" as that leads to people making decisions based on the wrong incentives. Not least given the large gap between doses in the UK if you haven't yet had a dose you are "unclean" until getting on for Christmas.

I look forward to reading the IA ,EQIA and Public Health Modelling that will undoubtedly be published to accompany the policy (Anyone else feel like putting in some FOI's?)

 

[102 fan]

Here we go. Not voted in Parliament either.

BBC News - Covid-19: Vaccine passports to start in England this month

Covid-19: Vaccine passports to start in England this month

The scheme for nightclubs and other venues from the end of September aims to ensure they stay open.

www.bbc.co.uk

'Plans to introduce vaccines passports in nightclubs and other indoor venues in England will go ahead this month, the vaccines minister has confirmed.'

 

[bramling]

Here we go. Not voted in Parliament either.

BBC News - Covid-19: Vaccine passports to start in England this month

Covid-19: Vaccine passports to start in England this month

The scheme for nightclubs and other venues from the end of September aims to ensure they stay open.

www.bbc.co.uk

'Plans to introduce vaccines passports in nightclubs and other indoor venues in England will go ahead this month, the vaccines minister has confirmed.'

So much for July being "irreversible" then. I'd say any retrenchment over what we have now, which this is, counts as a reverse move.

To me it's also a clear hint that restrictions are certainly on the cards for the winter.

But what hope is there when we have people on media such as Facebook referring to unvaccinated or maskless people as "dirty". I can understand someone moving seats on a train if they're concerned about a maskless person being nearby, but this doesn't make that person "dirty". Again the fact that this sort of attitude has entered the general population represents another failure by the politicians.

 

[102 fan]

So much for July being "irreversible" then. I'd say any retrenchment over what we have now, which this is, counts as a reverse move.

To me it's also a clear hint that restrictions are certainly on the cards for the winter.

How long will the majority of the public put up with more restrictions?

 

[js1000]

I really don't understand vaccine passports. We know the vaccine is not 100% effective against serious illness and you can still contract and transmit Covid even if you are vaccinated. If it was 100% effective I could absolutely see the reason why, but Covid will always exist so at what point do we draw the line? We know that a whopping 95% of UK adults have Covid antibodies. You're not going to get much better than that and vaccine passports to encourage uptake seem futile.

My concern is that vaccine passports are just a Pandora's box and a thin edge of the wedge. If a nightclub has to enforce but the pub next door does not and everyone goes there for a drink and a dance then it is inevitable these vaccine passports will have to introduced everywhere. If the government adequately funded the health service and social care sector we wouldn't have this problem. Vaccine passports are just an ideal way for politicians of scapegoating hospitality and young people.

Ironically, evidence shows young people are less likely to have the vaccine if they feel coerced and are more likely to have house parties or illegal raves instead - the latter of which has the opportunity to substantially increase criminal activity. The whole point of "licensed" venues like nightclubs and bars is that the police have eyes and ears and a decent understanding these venues are not being used as a front for criminal activity.

It will be interesting to see what the courts say in terms of discrimination against young people and ethnic minorities re. vaccine passports. I suspect the government would lose a judicial review on indirect discrimination basis and the fact vaccines do not stop transmission. Even the vaccine minister in February said himself that vaccine passports were "discriminatory" on national TV so really not sure what's changed. It will also be interesting to see if businesses even enforce vaccine passports and given there is a high risk of a discrimination claim under the Equality Act.

My expectation is that these vaccine passports get watered down by parliament to become a Covid certification scheme which includes free testing as a method to enter large events given vaccination does not fully stop transmission of Covid. If anything, testing before going to a large scale event is actually safer in preventing the spread of Covid.

 

[greyman42]

To me it's also a clear hint that restrictions are certainly on the cards for the winter.

What makes you think that?

 

[HSTEd]

How long will the majority of the public put up with more restrictions?

Forever.

I'm afraid if the last 18 months have taught us anything it is that freedom is not popular.

 

[greyman42]

How long will the majority of the public put up with more restrictions?

Well i won't but it seems that some people are quite happy to live their lives with restrictions, especially if it means they don't have to go to work.

 

[102 fan]

Forever.

I'm afraid if the last 18 months have taught us anything it is that freedom is not popular.

A sad and depressing state of affairs.

 

[bramling]

What makes you think that?

I just get the feeling, especially as BJ has (apparently) already laid down a yardstick figure. As a policy it's been successfully (*) implemented twice, so why not again?

(* I use the term "successfully" in the most cynical possible sense, where the definition of success is that BJ is still prime minister!).

 

[NorthKent1989]

The fact that this has gone through without a discussion in Parliament shows that we no longer live in a democracy.

Chairman Johnson knew that it would never have gotten through otherwise

 

[greyman42]

The fact that this has gone through without a discussion in Parliament shows that we no longer live in a democracy.

Chairman Johnson knew that it would never have gotten through otherwise

Should there not be checks and balances to stop this happening?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Should there not be checks and balances to stop this happening?

You would think so, this a major step too far

 

[greyman42]

You would think so, this a major step too far

Where are the opposition? Regardless of their own policies, surely they should speak out against this?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Where are the opposition? Regardless of their own policies, surely they should speak out against this?

The only credible opposition to this are the Lib Dem’s and some members of the Labour Party (the Corbyn loyalists like Dawn Butler) the Tory backbenchers will puff and blow but won’t really actually do anything

 

[102 fan]

Where are the opposition? Regardless of their own policies, surely they should speak out against this?

The only credible opposition to this are the Lib Dem’s and some members of the Labour Party (the Corbyn loyalists like Dawn Butler) the Tory backbenchers will puff and blow but won’t really actually do anything

Avoiding debate in Parliament neatly avoids these problems.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Avoiding debate in Parliament neatly avoids these problems.

Also Johnson knows it’ll most likely be voted down, hence the sneaky tactics

 

[35B]

Avoiding debate in Parliament neatly avoids these problems.

I've seen an announcement of intent - what legal powers do the government have to implement these without introducing new measures (whether primary legislation or statutory instruments)?

 

[102 fan]

Sounds like the Reichstag fire......

 

[bramling]

Also Johnson knows it’ll most likely be voted down, hence the sneaky tactics

This needs busting now, irrespective of the rights or wrongs of vaccine passports. If it’s to happen it should be debated and voted upon in the correct way.

I am sick of emergency powers being used (if that’s what’s happening here?).

I’m also sick of this current crop of politicians who seem to feel they can do whatever they personally feel like, with seemingly no effective checks and balances. Khan (whose post and office I’ve never regarded as legitimate anyway) and Sturgeon can be added to that list too.

The subject of emergency powers being used inappropriately may well deserve its own thread.

 

[NorthKent1989]

This needs busting now, irrespective of the rights or wrongs of vaccine passports. If it’s to happen it should be debated and voted upon in the correct way.

I am sick of emergency powers being used (if that’s what’s happening here?).

Its far too Sinister that it’s by passing Parliament, hopefully the Lib Dem’s at least will kick up a stink

 

[Yew]

This needs busting now, irrespective of the rights or wrongs of vaccine passports. If it’s to happen it should be debated and voted upon in the correct way.

I am sick of emergency powers being used (if that’s what’s happening here?).

How can something be advertised months in advance, yet still be too urgent to go through parliament.

 

[35B]

Its far too Sinister that it’s by passing Parliament, hopefully the Lib Dem’s at least will kick up a stink

How can something be advertised months in advance, yet still be too urgent to go through parliament.

Where has it been said that it is?

 

[takno]

This needs busting now, irrespective of the rights or wrongs of vaccine passports. If it’s to happen it should be debated and voted upon in the correct way.

I am sick of emergency powers being used (if that’s what’s happening here?).

I’m also sick of this current crop of politicians who seem to feel they can do whatever they personally feel like, with seemingly no effective checks and balances. Khan (whose post and office I’ve never regarded as legitimate anyway) and Sturgeon can be added to that list too.

The subject of emergency powers being used inappropriately may well deserve its own thread.

To give Sturgeon a tiny bit of credit, they are putting the passports through parliament in Scotland. Mind you, they probably wouldn't have the votes to get it through if they hadn't just stitched the greens up.

 

[NorthKent1989]

To give Sturgeon a tiny bit of credit, they are putting the passports through parliament in Scotland. Mind you, they probably wouldn't have the votes to get it through if they hadn't just stitched the greens up.

Ive heard the Scottish Labour much like some of their English Counterparts are against passports and will vote against them, not sure if this will help.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

I still don't get it. If the vaccine works then any given person will be fine so why do they care about unvaccinated people who are clearly happy with their choice? If the vaccine doesn't work then it's a waste of time anyway. Yes I understand that there are some people who die after being vaccinated but they could just as easily catch it in a shop or on a train, or at their mate's house as they could in a nightclub or in a theatre.

Annetts key described in far more detail why I supported them initially. If the vaccines are proven to reduce transmission by say 50% or more I would fully support them again too.

I had cancer treatment delayed for months due to lack of capacity caused by Covid-19. (I’m OK now, have finally had all treatment, hoping to get “all clear” in four years. But that delay will always play on my mind.) So I’m coming at it from the perspective of supporting anything which would protect NHS capacity for all the other stuff. I don’t actually care if random adults get infected now, that’s their choice. They’ve all had the opportunity to get vaccinated. But I do care about what happens if I need life-saving hospital treatment again or if my friends/family do. Not to mention all the other hospital treatment required in that massive backlog too.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Annetts key described in far more detail why I supported them initially. If the vaccines are proven to reduce transmission by say 50% or more I would fully support them again too.

I had cancer treatment delayed for months due to lack of capacity caused by Covid-19. (I’m OK now, have finally had all treatment, hoping to get “all clear” in four years. But that delay will always play on my mind.) So I’m coming at it from the perspective of supporting anything which would protect NHS capacity for all the other stuff. I don’t actually care if random adults get infected now, that’s their choice. They’ve all had the opportunity to get vaccinated. But I do care about what happens if I need life-saving hospital treatment again or if my friends/family do. Not to mention all the other hospital treatment required in that massive backlog too.

Im glad you’re okay from Cancer, but there’s no need for any more restrictions now, most of the population have been vaccinated, what difference does it make if someone doesn’t get the jab?

Someone whose had the jab can still get Covid and end up in hospital, there’s no health benefits to the passport other than they’re a security blanket for some

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Im glad you’re okay from Cancer, but there’s no need for any more restrictions now, most of the population have been vaccinated, what difference does it make if someone doesn’t get the jab?

Someone whose had the jab can still get Covid and end up in hospital, there’s no health benefits to the passport other than they’re a security blanket for some

Annetts key described why, on the previous page.

What I perhaps didn’t explain in my post above was that right now I only think we need them for international travel, not for anything else. I’d only support them for nightclubs and football matches etc *IF* vaccines get proven to massively reduce transmission. If they only reduce transmission by 10% then the restrictions aren’t worthwhile.

 

[duncanp]

Annetts key described why, on the previous page.

What I perhaps didn’t explain in my post above was that right now I only think we need them for international travel, not for anything else. I’d only support them for nightclubs and football matches etc *IF* vaccines get proven to massively reduce transmission. If they only reduce transmission by 10% then the restrictions aren’t worthwhile.

Another point worth mentioning is, will venues where vaccine passports be required to check the vaccine certificate against photo ID? (In order to ensure that the person presenting the vaccine passport is the person named on the vaccine passport)

If so, what forms of photo ID will be acceptable, given that it is not mandatory to possess either a driving licence or a passport?

Or will we be in a position where some venues will check the QR code/PDF file/piece of paper against photo ID, and other venues will just check the "COVID Pass"?

Heaven help us if the COVID Pass has to be checked against photo ID, and then the scope is widened to more everyday venues such as pubs, non essential retail and long distance public transport.

People will then have to carry photo ID almost everywhere they go, which is like introducing compulsory identity cards by the back door.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Another point worth mentioning is, will venues where vaccine passports be required to check the vaccine certificate against photo ID? (In order to ensure that the person presenting the vaccine passport is the person named on the vaccine passport)

If so, what forms of photo ID will be acceptable, given that it is not mandatory to possess either a driving licence or a passport?

Or will we be in a position where some venues will check the QR code/PDF file/piece of paper against photo ID, and other venues will just check the "COVID Pass"?

Heaven help us if the COVID Pass has to be checked against photo ID, and then the scope is widened to more everyday venues such as pubs, non essential retail and long distance public transport.

People will then have to carry photo ID almost everywhere they go, which is like introducing compulsory identity cards by the back door.

For nightclubs it would be check against whatever is currently used to prove age!

For concerts it would again be whatever is currently used to prevent ticket touting — not all large concerts do it, but I’ve been to stadium/arena gigs where it happened. I don’t know how common it is, but it happened in 2016 for sure, so is not particularly new.