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Vaccine Passports - currently being considered in Scotland & Wales

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takno

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I did wonder if this might have been the plan to begin with — I.e. make a lot of noise about implementing vaccine passports to get everyone who would be convinced by such a measure to get vaccinated (especially the young), but then never actually implement them due to their illiberal consequences. If that were the plan (and that may be crediting the government with far too much foresight), it would be the best of both worlds in my opinion (if a bit dishonest).

That said, the pessimist in me thinks this isn’t the last we’ve heard of them; the infrastructure is there, and a sharp uptick in cases and… the other fact is that we already have significant preferential treatment for the vaccinated, via voluntary vaccine passport checking, return from travel isolation rules, and Covid contact isolation rules.
As usual I expect Scotland will get the worst of all worlds. Having successfully goaded Sturgeon into announcing the crazy policy, we'll probably find England bin it off and we're stuck with it. It'll become some kind of show of how Scotland is more "caring" in a hapless and counterproductive attempt to.make us all vote indy.
 

Class800

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But individual venues may, which is the real risk - if Government not strong enough to ban Covid status checks i.e. vaccine passports, which are already needed at the NEC, Albert Hall, Premier League football etc etc, rather than just 'not mandate' them nationally
 

island

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But individual venues may, which is the real risk - if Government not strong enough to ban Covid status checks i.e. vaccine passports, which are already needed at the NEC, Albert Hall, Premier League football etc etc, rather than just 'not mandate' them nationally
The free market will sort that out – if attendees prefer there be tests/vaccinations, they will vote with their feet.
 

Class800

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Island, I don't think it will. There are business networks and federations and venues are likely to be in step with each other, especially large venues. I see little point in the Government 'not introducing' vaccine passports, but then not actively prohibiting them
 

brick60000

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Yet another u-turn. What a surprise. But thank goodness, nonetheless!!

Can’t help but thing this was a despicable way to force the hand of those nervous about getting the jab….
 

Highlandspring

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Can’t help but thing this was a despicable way to force the hand of those nervous about getting the jab….

The Scottish government’s Cabinet Secretary for Health & Social Care (Humza Yousaf) and Deputy First Minister (John Swinney) have both openly said in parliament and the media that the Scottish vaccine certification scheme is intended mainly to coerce the remaining eligible unvaccinated population into getting vaccinated. Although the word ‘encourage’ has so far always been used rather than ‘coerce’ it amounts to the same thing.
 

102 fan

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BBC News - England vaccine passport plans ditched, Sajid Javid says

'A scheme for vaccine passports for entry to nightclubs and large events in England will not go ahead, the health secretary has said.'

Another change of mind, but one I agree with!
 

ScotRail158725

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BBC News - England vaccine passport plans ditched, Sajid Javid says

'A scheme for vaccine passports for entry to nightclubs and large events in England will not go ahead, the health secretary has said.'

Another change of mind, but one I agree with!
Agreed, hopefully Sturgeon follows but I know my money isn’t on that happening
 

Cowley

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Thread title now changed to reflect the latest news. :)
 

greyman42

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But individual venues may, which is the real risk - if Government not strong enough to ban Covid status checks i.e. vaccine passports, which are already needed at the NEC, Albert Hall, Premier League football etc etc, rather than just 'not mandate' them nationally
There isn't and never has been a requirement for vaccine passports at Premier League football stadiums.
 

Smidster

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On the whole very good news even if a policy with so little supporting evidence should have got so close to being implemented.

It will be interesting to see what business in these sectors do now - Many have been doing "Covid-Certification" on a voluntary basis (e.g. the big festivals / EPL football) Will they continue to do so or gently drop it?

I do also think the decision of the SNP to press ahead in Scotland has influenced the decision in England.

Also don't think it has gone away for good - It is the kind of ineffective nonsense that will be the first thing to come back if there are increases over the Autumn.

There isn't and never has been a requirement for vaccine passports at Premier League football stadiums.

There has never been a legal requirement but clubs have mandated them in preparation for the assumed National scheme - e.g. https://www.manutd.com/en/Reunited/covid-certification


Will be interesting to see what the EPL do and whether or not they try to carry on with Certification.
 
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takno

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There has never been a legal requirement but clubs have mandated them in preparation for the assumed National scheme - e.g. https://www.manutd.com/en/Reunited/covid-certification

Will be interesting to see what the EPL do and whether or not they try to carry on with Certification.
The Man Utd page is pretty clear that they are only doing this now in order to prepare for doing it when it's legally-mandated. A lot of the clubs that have been advertising it haven't even been doing it - just getting people ready for the dreaded day. In short, I'd guess the EPL and the clubs will immediately stop actually doing any checking
 

MikeWM

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Most pleasant to get some very good news for once on a Sunday!

Yes, it may end up being a temporary stay (I see they've said the idea is 'still in reserve'), and as pointed out there is nothing to stop individual businesses asking for such 'passports', as indeed some already are - but I'm not so much of a grump to not be really happy with this turn of events.

(I will nevertheless delay 'eating my hat' on the entire subject for a little while yet - at least until we're fairly sure the idea really isn't coming back.)

I wonder how much impact the incredibly negative questions from Tory backbenchers earlier this week in the Commons had on this decision? Or the sudden drop of the Tories in the opinion polls? (although the latter is more likely to be due to the tax rises and triple-lock changes, I would guess).

I note one of the other mooted changes is to drop bits of the Coronavirus Act on renewal, in particular schedule 22. That's rather interesting, as schedule 22 is the mechanism Sturgeon was intending to use to impose 'passports' on Scotland. If they repeal the whole of 22 (I suppose I they could just remove the England bits and leave the Scotland/Wales bits in place - I guess we'll have to wait and see what the plan actually is) - then they really pulls the rug out from under her plans. What a shame that would be!
 

35B

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I note one of the other mooted changes is to drop bits of the Coronavirus Act on renewal, in particular schedule 22. That's rather interesting, as schedule 22 is the mechanism Sturgeon was intending to use to impose 'passports' on Scotland. If they repeal the whole of 22 (I suppose I they could just remove the England bits and leave the Scotland/Wales bits in place - I guess we'll have to wait and see what the plan actually is) - then they really pulls the rug out from under her plans. What a shame that would be!
It would also be quite an interesting piece of politics given the state of Scottish politics - Sturgeon would have to argue for the powers to be retained to allow the Scottish government to do what is "necessary" to deal with much higher Covid case numbers (as at now), for which her government have run policy. Or "our policy's failed to hold back cases - so let us have powers so we can keep doing different...".

That of course relies on trends remaining consistent.
 
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Does this not mean a lockdown of sorts before Christmas is now more likely? they could hardly have covid passports and a 'fire break' in the same breath. I wouldn't get the champagne out just yet.
 

Journeyman

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Somewhat disappointing and rather predictable move and the existing vaccine passport scheme in Scotland does not go far enough. I do not understand the "freedom" and "personal choice" framing used in conversations about vaccinations and related policy, because it's not a personal choice if it affects others. Even if was truly for your own protection and your own protection alone, what freedom, exactly, is lost by being forced into getting vaccinated? The freedom to die a painful, preventable death or be left with devastating long covid? And those consequences of refusing the vaccine make it no longer just a personal choice again. You may have family or friends who depend on you. You may be making their lifes significantly harder by refusing to take responsibilty for your own health.

The willfully unvaccinated are treated with an entirely un-earned and un-justifiable respect in discourse about COVID. Why do I have to feel sorry for people being banned from nightclubs for refusing to do the absolute bare minimum to protect their own and the public's health? If they don't like being refused entry, vaccines are free and extremely easy to get. I got my second dose at a drop-in center without pre-arranging an appointment. I've had to put up with a lot of my freedoms being lost and losing out on many social experiences and aspects of college life because of COVID. Things that would not be necessary by now if the vaccine was treated not as a choice, but as a duty. Which it obviously should be by anyone who recognises the severity of the COVID situation.

The only valid reason I recognise for not getting vaccinated is genuine medical exemption, and such exemptions are accounted for in vaccine passport schemes. Any other reason for refusing the vaccine is just a childish "I DON'T WANNA!" temper tantrum to me. We're adults. Learning to do things you don't necessarily want to do for the sake of society as a whole, as well as your own friends and family is a part of maturity. Yes, vaccine side effects suck, but I have had COVID which really puts the vaccine side-effects into perspective. I suffered the worst fatigue of my life for a whole month, and my case was mild. I don't understand why anyone would want to voluntarily put themselves in danger of that, and worse.

The fact that we're even discussing measures which try to coerce people into getting vaccinated shows the disturbing influence of anti-intellectualism in society. In a media-literate and educated society, the need to get vaccinated and lock down early and for prolonged periods would be obvious to everyone and we'd be done with COVID by now. If you are "vaccine-hesitant", I'd love to see the qualifications and research you have in order to conclusively prove that getting vaccinated is objectively more dangerous than catching COVID. Such evidence would be especially groundbreaking given how much deadlier some of the new variants are.

The vaccines have been offered to every adult at this point. Therefore all unvaccinated adults are willfully unvaccinated. I'm sick of the government pandering to them. It's causing COVID's emergency pandemic phase to stretch on longer, and it's causing unvaccinated people with medical exemptions to needlessly die.
 
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takno

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Does this not mean a lockdown of sorts before Christmas is now more likely? they could hardly have covid passports and a 'fire break' in the same breath. I wouldn't get the champagne out just yet.
I'm not seeing the logic there tbh
 

DustyBin

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Somewhat disappointing and rather predictable move and the existing vaccine passport scheme in Scotland does not go far enough. I do not understand the "freedom" and "personal choice" framing used in conversations about vaccinations and related policy, because it's not a personal choice if it affects others. Even if was truly for your own protection and your own protection alone, what freedom, exactly, is lost by being forced into getting vaccinated? The freedom to die a painful, preventable death or be left with devastating long covid? And those consequences of refusing the vaccine make it no longer just a personal choice again. You may have family or friends who depend on you. You may be making their lifes significantly harder by refusing to take responsibilty for your own health.

The willfully unvaccinated are treated with an entirely un-earned and un-justifiable respect in discourse about COVID. Why do I have to feel sorry for people being banned from nightclubs for refusing to do the absolute bare minimum to protect their own and the public's health? If they don't like being refused entry, vaccines are free and extremely easy to get. I got my second dose at a drop-in center without pre-arranging an appointment. I've had to put up with a lot of my freedoms being lost and losing out on many social experiences and aspects of college life because of COVID. Things that would not be necessary by now if the vaccine was treated not as a choice, but as a duty. Which it obviously should be by anyone who recognises the severity of the COVID situation.

The only valid reason I recognise for not getting vaccinated is genuine medical exemption, and such exemptions are accounted for in vaccine passport schemes. Any other reason for refusing the vaccine is just a childish "I DON'T WANNA!" temper tantrum to me. We're adults. Learning to do things you don't necessarily want to do for the sake of society as a whole, as well as your own friends and family is a part of maturity. Yes, vaccine side effects suck, but I have had COVID which really puts the vaccine side-effects into perspective. I suffered the worst fatigue of my life for a whole month, and my case was mild. I don't understand why anyone would want to voluntarily put themselves in danger of that, and worse.

The fact that we're even discussing measures which try to coerce people into getting vaccinated shows the disturbing influence of anti-intellectualism in society. In a media-literate and educated society, the need to get vaccinated and lock down early and for prolonged periods would be obvious to everyone and we'd be done with COVID by now. If you are "vaccine-hesitant", I'd love to see the qualifications and research you have in order to conclusively prove that getting vaccinated is objectively more dangerous than catching COVID. Such evidence would be especially groundbreaking given how much deadlier some of the new variants are.

The vaccines have been offered to every adult at this point. Therefore all unvaccinated adults are willfully unvaccinated. I'm sick of the government pandering to them. It's causing COVID's emergency pandemic phase to stretch on longer, and it's causing unvaccinated people with medical exemptions to needlessly die.

What a load of… Hyperbole!
 

43066

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The only valid reason I recognise for not getting vaccinated is genuine medical exemption,

Why on Earth should anyone give two hoots about what you recognise? It someone chooses not to get vaccinated for any reason (or none) it’s simply none of your business.

Even if was truly for your own protection and your own protection alone, what freedom, exactly, is lost by being forced into getting vaccinated? The freedom to die a painful, preventable death or be left with devastating long covid?

I’m glad you’re nowhere near the levers of power!
 

takno

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Somewhat disappointing and rather predictable move and the existing vaccine passport scheme in Scotland does not go far enough. I do not understand the "freedom" and "personal choice" framing used in conversations about vaccinations and related policy, because it's not a personal choice if it affects others. Even if was truly for your own protection and your own protection alone, what freedom, exactly, is lost by being forced into getting vaccinated? The freedom to die a painful, preventable death or be left with devastating long covid? And those consequences of refusing the vaccine make it no longer just a personal choice again. You may have family or friends who depend on you. You may be making their lifes significantly harder by refusing to take responsibilty for your own health.

The willfully unvaccinated are treated with an entirely un-earned and un-justifiable respect in discourse about COVID. Why do I have to feel sorry for people being banned from nightclubs for refusing to do the absolute bare minimum to protect their own and the public's health? If they don't like being refused entry, vaccines are free and extremely easy to get. I got my second dose at a drop-in center without pre-arranging an appointment. I've had to put up with a lot of my freedoms being lost and losing out on many social experiences and aspects of college life because of COVID. Things that would not be necessary by now if the vaccine was treated not as a choice, but as a duty. Which it obviously should be by anyone who recognises the severity of the COVID situation.

The only valid reason I recognise for not getting vaccinated is genuine medical exemption, and such exemptions are accounted for in vaccine passport schemes. Any other reason for refusing the vaccine is just a childish "I DON'T WANNA!" temper tantrum to me. We're adults. Learning to do things you don't necessarily want to do for the sake of society as a whole, as well as your own friends and family is a part of maturity. Yes, vaccine side effects suck, but I have had COVID which really puts the vaccine side-effects into perspective. I suffered the worst fatigue of my life for a whole month, and my case was mild. I don't understand why anyone would want to voluntarily put themselves in danger of that, and worse.

The fact that we're even discussing measures which try to coerce people into getting vaccinated shows the disturbing influence of anti-intellectualism in society. In a media-literate and educated society, the need to get vaccinated and lock down early and for prolonged periods would be obvious to everyone and we'd be done with COVID by now. If you are "vaccine-hesitant", I'd love to see the qualifications and research you have in order to conclusively prove that getting vaccinated is objectively more dangerous than catching COVID. Such evidence would be especially groundbreaking given how much deadlier some of the new variants are.

The vaccines have been offered to every adult at this point. Therefore all unvaccinated adults are willfully unvaccinated. I'm sick of the government pandering to them. It's causing COVID's emergency pandemic phase to stretch on longer, and it's causing unvaccinated people with medical exemptions to needlessly die.
You suggest that others are being childish and anti-intellectual, and yet your rant is drifting effortlessly and thoughtlessly into childish and utterly self-regarding fascism. The extent of your actual knowledge of the disease appears to be your personal experience, and you show absolutely no interest in the months of painstaking data collection and analysis that scientists have been doing.
 

Journeyman

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You suggest that others are being childish and anti-intellectual, and yet your rant is drifting effortlessly and thoughtlessly into childish and utterly self-regarding fascism. The extent of your actual knowledge of the disease appears to be your personal experience, and you show absolutely no interest in the months of painstaking data collection and analysis that scientists have been doing.
What is the data collection and analysis that I'm apparently missing? Because all data I've seen on the matter of vaccines suggests they are very effective at reducing symptoms and hospitalisations.

And isn't it a bit early in this conversation for Godwin's law? In what way is it fascist to support policy that saves lives? I made it very clear near the top of my comment that the framing of vaccines as a freedom issue and a choice is something I strongly disagree with because endangering others is not freedom.

I try to think of what the most vulnerable in society are going through. Imagine being unable to be vaccinated for a very good reason and having a weak immune system, and hearing others talk about maintaining your safety by doing a tiny little, easy, insignificant thing as a choice and wanting the "rights" of those putting you in danger to be respected. You'd be pretty angry with them, wouldn't you?
 

bramling

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What is the data collection and analysis that I'm apparently missing? Because all data I've seen on the matter of vaccines suggests they are very effective at reducing symptoms and hospitalisations.

And isn't it a bit early in this conversation for Godwin's law? In what way is it fascist to support policy that saves lives? I made it very clear near the top of my comment that the framing of vaccines as a freedom issue and a choice is something I strongly disagree with because endangering others is not freedom.

I try to think of what the most vulnerable in society are going through. Imagine being unable to be vaccinated for a very good reason and having a weak immune system, and hearing others talk about maintaining your safety by doing a tiny little, easy, insignificant thing as a choice and wanting the "rights" of those putting you in danger to be respected. You'd be pretty angry with them, wouldn't you?

Knowing someone who died as a result of Covid being passed on by someone who *was* vaccinated (and who might well have been more careful had they not been), I find this pretty unpalatable to be honest.

It is quite clear vaccination does not guarantee no transmission, so for me this makes any arguments about endangering others worthless.

I can see there’s some merit in the residual argument that unvaccinated hospitalisations are an avoidable burden on the health service, but this depends on what the stats show regarding exactly who is in hospital, and whether they’re taking up scarcer resources like ICU. If someone can provide stats which clearly point to young unvaccinated people being a major NHS burden then I will gladly take note. I’d certainly agree that older people are probably better off having the vaccine, but it’s still their choice what goes into their body, and I’d defend that right of choice to the last.
 
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Yew

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What is the data collection and analysis that I'm apparently missing? Because all data I've seen on the matter of vaccines suggests they are very effective at reducing symptoms and hospitalisations.

And isn't it a bit early in this conversation for Godwin's law? In what way is it fascist to support policy that saves lives? I made it very clear near the top of my comment that the framing of vaccines as a freedom issue and a choice is something I strongly disagree with because endangering others is not freedom.

I try to think of what the most vulnerable in society are going through. Imagine being unable to be vaccinated for a very good reason and having a weak immune system, and hearing others talk about maintaining your safety by doing a tiny little, easy, insignificant thing as a choice and wanting the "rights" of those putting you in danger to be respected. You'd be pretty angry with them, wouldn't you?
I'm seeing a lot of emotive rhetoric, and not a lot of facts, evidence and logic.
 
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