Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[Bikeman78]

Well the number of multi thousand pound FPNs the BTP will hand out will go some way to eliminating the enormous railway subsidy pile!

I was out and about yesterday. I saw one copper all day. The chances of being caught are close to zero, especially on DOO trains.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Where are you getting that from? Maybe if this had been a year ago I could agree with that but from what I can see people are fed up with restrictions and want and end to it, I know it might seem locktavists from Facebook are the majority but going by the fact that thousands marched in major cities a few weekends ago and with another march this month I don’t think the majority supports these at all.

The Lib Dem’s, Tory rebels and now Labour are against these passports, Boris will commit political suicide if he presses ahead with vaccine passports, it won’t do anything to recover the economy, and it’ll breed illegal pubs and festivals, it’ll kill off the Tories for generations, I’m pry convinced that this will be a step too far for Boris

As far as vaccine passports are concerned people will fall into 5 categories:

Strongly for

I’m having the vaccine anyway and compared to all the stuff over the last year showing proof isn’t a major thing

I’m having the vaccine but I object to proving it to random strangers

I won’t have the vaccine and am therefore strongly against

Strongly against on civil liberty grounds

Personally I think groups 1 and 2 combined will be in the majority.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

As far as vaccine passports are concerned people will fall into 5 categories:

Strongly for

I’m having the vaccine anyway and compared to all the stuff over the last year showing proof isn’t a major thing

I’m having the vaccine but I object to proving it to random strangers

I won’t have the vaccine and am therefore strongly against

Strongly against on civil liberty grounds

Personally I think groups 1 and 2 combined will be in the majority.

Until the day comes when they swap jackets just before leaving home (and leave the cardboard chitty at home), or the phone battery fades whilst out all day, and they get refused entry.

Other groups would include:
I can't get one because I'm pregnant so not vaccinated (other reasons exist),
I can't get one because my age group hasn't been offered the vaccine yet,
I can't get one because I do not have a vaccination centre that I can easily get to,
I've just had a new phone (lost, broken, upgraded) and the app will not recognise my new phone (perhaps track and trace App does, don't know, haven't downloaded it).

 

[bramling]

As far as vaccine passports are concerned people will fall into 5 categories:

Strongly for

I’m having the vaccine anyway and compared to all the stuff over the last year showing proof isn’t a major thing

I’m having the vaccine but I object to proving it to random strangers

I won’t have the vaccine and am therefore strongly against

Strongly against on civil liberty grounds

Personally I think groups 1 and 2 combined will be in the majority.

I’m still lukewarm at best on the vaccine, having moved from being slightly sceptical. However I am getting sick of the way people are now poking their nose into whether someone else has chosen to be vaccinated, and I object to some of the nastiness we’re now starting to see in this subject, it’s masks mk2.

If I do decide to have it, it’s certainly no one else’s business whether I have or not. Plus I don’t like the idea of a society where we have to flash papers around, if nothing else it’s a nuisance.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I’m still lukewarm at best on the vaccine, having moved from being slightly sceptical. However I am getting sick of the way people are now poking their nose into whether someone else has chosen to be vaccinated, and I object to some of the nastiness we’re now starting to see in this subject, it’s masks mk2.

If I do decide to have it, it’s certainly no one else’s business whether I have or not. Plus I don’t like the idea of a society where we have to flash papers around, if nothing else it’s a nuisance.

It's worse than masks. You can easily tell if someone is wearing a mask, if they are not then the official or self-appointed enforcers need only trouble those individuals (not that they should of course). For vaccine, there is no visible indication, so they will have to enquire of every single person.

 

[initiation]

In relation to vaccines and their use as a 'carrot' to give people freedoms back, this US interview has appeared on Twitter where she basically states on TV that they need to jab as many people as soon as possible before people get a taste of freedom.

https://mobile.twitter.com/00RedBoar/status/1377726129373593612

I completely support those who are at risk getting a vaccine but to apply such pressures is sickening.

---

The DM is now also reporting that Boris will announce trials of passports on Monday. Good to know the consultation responses which ended literally days ago has been reviewed and processed so efficiently...

Covid passport trials to begin: PM set to unveil test scheme

Trials of vaccine passports could begin as early as next month, the Mail has revealed, with theatres, stadiums being lined up to pilot the controversial scheme under plans discussed by ministers.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[kristiang85]

The Times says Johnson will announce something on vaccine passports on Monday (or early next week) - it doesn't seem to say which way he will go, but it does say the top levels of government do see them as a way forward to open up. Given how 'leaky' the government is with its ideas before announcing them, I am worried there might be some veracity in it all and it is going to happen.

I can see Johnson as framing it as 'I am keeping my promises to open up by June 21st, when everyone will be offered the vaccine, but its conditional you do this'. Then if there's a huge pushback from the public or other parties, he can then keep the stupid rule of 6 or social distancing measures in place beyond that date.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't trust that man one inch.

Oh wow, less than a day I posted this, it seems this is exactly what might be happening.

BREAKING: Lifting all restrictions on June 21 could now be dependent on a functioning vaccine passport programme

Via @DailyMail

Now I know the Daily Mail isn't the most reputable publication generally, but it has been a good source of policy leaks that have proved to be correct regarding covid.

If even an iota of this is true, it looks like I'll be participating in my first ever demonstration in the next month or so....

 

[HSTEd]

It was inevitable.

Once Israel did it, everyone was going to follow suit.

This is just the way we live now.

The British people have been broken by the year of eternal lockdown, and will now to agree to absolutely anything to get even a taste of the old world back.

 

[kristiang85]

It was inevitable.

Once Israel did it, everyone was going to follow suit.

This is just the way we live now.

The British people have been broken by the year of eternal lockdown, and will now to agree to absolutely anything to get even a taste of the old world back.

This is the crazy thing about it all; people seem so conditioned to this new way of life already. I was having a work social this week on Zoom, and someone said, in effect, "ah it's so great this week, we can start seeing people again outside!"

I said I'm not celebrating, as I'm only going to jump up and clap about it once we are allowed our 2019 lives back again. And some thought I was being a miserable sod.

 

[brad465]

In relation to vaccines and their use as a 'carrot' to give people freedoms back, this US interview has appeared on Twitter where she basically states on TV that they need to jab as many people as soon as possible before people get a taste of freedom.

https://mobile.twitter.com/00RedBoar/status/1377726129373593612

I completely support those who are at risk getting a vaccine but to apply such pressures is sickening.

---

The DM is now also reporting that Boris will announce trials of passports on Monday. Good to know the consultation responses which ended literally days ago has been reviewed and processed so efficiently...

Covid passport trials to begin: PM set to unveil test scheme

Trials of vaccine passports could begin as early as next month, the Mail has revealed, with theatres, stadiums being lined up to pilot the controversial scheme under plans discussed by ministers.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The article (along with some other sources), also states 70+MPs in a cross party setup are opposed to this, and includes Corbyn interestingly.

 

[HSTEd]

The article (along with some other sources), also states 70+MPs in a cross party setup are opposed to this, and includes Corbyn interestingly.

It doesn't matter.

The Government wouldn't be pushing it unless it knew it was going to win the vote (either on a new Act of Parliament, or defending an inevitable challenge to the Statutory Instrument).

They probably expect to limit it solely to England and get the SNP to abstain, or they expect Keir to fall into line.

 

[kristiang85]

It doesn't matter.

The Government wouldn't be pushing it unless it knew it was going to win the vote (either on a new Act of Parliament, or defending an inevitable challenge to the Statutory Instrument).

They probably expect to limit it solely to England and get the SNP to abstain, or they expect Keir to fall into line.

No matter what Starmer votes, his party dropped the ball in abstaining from the extension to the Coronavirus Act. That means that now BJ can use the threat of continued restrictions to get the passports through, if that's what he wishes to do.

I don't know what the endgame is here, but we need the PM to come out ASAP and say that freedom means freedom on the 21st June - and that means no tiered society. Otherwise its not looking anything like a return to normal ity, especially as that will likely have a negative effect on vaccine uptake.

 

[Cdd89]

The implication is that vaccine passports will be needed in places with very little social distancing.

However, public transport is already a key essential place with often very little social distancing.

I am sure that nobody is seriously proposing vaccine passports to use public transport. So why exactly does it make sense in other contexts?

 

[HSTEd]

I am sure that nobody is seriously proposing vaccine passports to use public transport. So why exactly does it make sense in other contexts?

To provide a reason to allow people to go to the pub without masks but still insist on masks on public transport etc forever.

 

[AlterEgo]

To provide a reason to allow people to go to the pub without masks but still insist on masks on public transport etc forever.

I’m going to stop wearing mine this summer if cases remain low. I’m due my second dose in mid-May and I won’t be hiding my glorious countenance forever.

 

[STINT47]

Some concerns immediately come to mind.

Not everyone will have been offered the vacine for some time yet. The young and healthy who have made big sacrifices for others could be the last to get freedom. If that was me I'd be seriously fed up.

If it's on an app what about those who do not have and or fo not want a smartphone? All of my grandparents have now had both doses but none of them are online or have a mobile. As my grandad said I've managed without the internet for 91 years so I'm not bothered about it now.

This effectively makes being vaccinated compulsory. Yes no one is going to hold you down and forcibly inject you but if you cannot access things then you'll be pressured into having it. This is a scary precedent to set to say the least.

It will not work on public transport. For example railway staff have enough problems trying to ensure people buy tickets. I really can't see them wanting or being able to enforce passports.

 

[HSTEd]

I’m going to stop wearing mine this summer if cases remain low. I’m due my second dose in mid-May and I won’t be hiding my glorious countenance forever.

The state and the public will place enormous social and legal pressure upon you to continue complying.

And the vast majority of peopel will.

 

[MikeWM]

Oh wow, less than a day I posted this, it seems this is exactly what might be happening.

Eerie, isn't it? I could have pretty much written every step of this script 6 months ago, all the clues were there. Many things that have happened since the middle of last year that seemed to make no sense, are actually totally rational if this was the aim all along. The key thing for me, the 'smoking gun' if you will, was the total lack of attention given to - and the concerted effort to suppress and ridicule those trying to draw attention to - effective treatments, as an alternative to vaccination. For a while I didn't understand why vaccination was the sole focus. But if you view it as a means-to-an-end to enable 'vaccine passports', the pieces all fit into place. I did wonder for a while if I was being a 'conspiracy theorist', trying to put a pattern on events that on the face of it don't make sense. But unfortunately it appears I was correct. Kudos to those who worked it out before me.

The only thing that threw me off slightly was the strong denials from the government a couple of months back that they would ever do such a thing. But then after all the outright lies they've told over the past year and all the backtracking ('inhumane' to cancel Christmas, a few days before doing exactly that, for a notable example) I shouldn't have even considered they might be telling the truth on this one.

 

[Gadget88]

*It means you can’t plan last min pub visits.
*Unvaccinated people treated as dirty two tier society.
*Tests are invasive so the saliva ones cost £120 pounds at Superdrug it’s going to become so expensive to visit a pub it won’t be worth bothering.
*It keeps unvaccinated in a permanent lockdown
*£120 for a test to see a £12 pounds cut cinema movie really?
*Vaccinated people are already not happy to “show papers” domestically

Final point no election until 2024.

 

[HSTEd]

and the concerted effort to suppress and ridicule those trying to draw attention to - effective treatments, as an alternative to vaccination.

Well to be honest, the number of acute viral diseases for which we have effective treatments can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

The initial promise of interferon was largely not realised.

 

[MikeWM]

Well to be honest, the number of acute viral diseases for which we have effective treatments can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

The initial promise of interferon was largely not realised.

Ivermectin appears to be *very* effective. Hydroxychloroquine probably is too (if given at the right time and in the right dose, unlike in the fraudulent studies that 'showed' it to be useless and/or dangerous). Vitamin D is *highly* helpful too.

None of those things make any money for big pharma though, and none of them enable the introduction of vaccine papers.

 

[778]

The state and the public will place enormous social and legal pressure upon you to continue complying.

And the vast majority of peopel will.

Is there nothing that can be done to stop mandatory masks becoming permanent on public transport? Would you expect permanent mask legislation to be introduced this year, or would that be more likely in 2022?

 

[HSTEd]

Is there nothing that can be done to stop mandatory masks becoming permanent on public transport?

No, I'm afraid pandora's box was opened when lockdown was allowed to occur.

The year of quasi lockdown (well 11 months of actual lockdown for me) will be used as an example of why masks are definitely acceptable.

Anything that prevents the government "having" to do that again is acceptable.

The linking of not wearing masks to granny murder will be strengthened by reference to possible "avoidable" deaths from flu

Would you expect permanent mask legislation to be introduced this year, or would that be more likely in 2022?

It will be at least 2022 before mask legislation, probably later.

They will just keep moving back the date of the end of the crisis over and over and over again.

 

[Steddenm]

If people are medically unable to take any vaccine then I expect they would still not be able to work in that field. As a comparison, if you are a surgeon and you have Hep. B or AIDS then tough you can’t be one. It’s in the GMC guidance you are not allowed to let your health put your patients at risk. I’d expect to see that applied more widely.

I'm not sure where you got that information from but it is wholly incorrect. If a surgeon, dentist or anybody else in front line medical care, has either HepB or HIV and it has been disclosed to the Health Trust/Board, and the GMC etc, there is absolutely no bar in place blocking that person to practice.

There are possibly an average percentage of HepB or HIV positive people working in the healthcare profession, as in all other professions. As HepB and HIV is now controlled using a broad range of medications (such as antivirals and retrovirals, combination therapy et al) HIV, especially, is much more difficult to pass on - if controlled correctly and many now become undetectable (Google U=U).

If a person was rejected for a job, in any field, for their HIV or Hep status, then this would open a number of floodgates for discrimination. It hasn't been long since the GMC allowed this, granted.

As for not being able to work in a specific field if you haven't - or can't have the Covid 19 vaccine, then this shouldn't be an issue. There is a large proportion of people who cannot have the vaccine for whatever reason, and blocking them from a job is discrimination again on a huge scale.

I can't have the vaccine due to severe allergies (high risk of anaphylaxis), but would that stop me getting a job in, say, GWR's revenue protection team? Absolutely not. As long as all Government and NHS advice is followed, then why should I be stopped?

And if they want a vaccination passport, why not use the little card they give you when you have your jabs? It has the name of the type of vaccine, batch numbers, dates and your name. Same size as a credit card!

 

[NorthKent1989]

Reuters is usually pretty reliable but let’s hope these domestic vaccine passports will be the death of Boris Johnson and his merry band of authoritarians come the next general election.

Opposition grows against UK vaccine passports

More than 70 British lawmakers have signalled their opposition to the introduction of so-called vaccine passports that the government is considering bringing in to help to open the economy as it starts lifting COVID-19 lockdown restrictions.

www.reuters.com

I’m still not sure about Labour as I think they’ll back this at the last minute, and I believe Starmer only said that passports for the pub were un-British because the Lib Dem’s said they were against them first, but if enough MP’s (hopefully more than 70 MP’s and rebel Tories swallow their pride and vote with Lib Dem’s and Labour) vote against it regardless of their motives then hopefully it’ll one nail closer to ending Johnson, Farage has been unusually quiet about all of this hasn’t he

 

[AlterEgo]

Is there nothing that can be done to stop mandatory masks becoming permanent on public transport? Would you expect permanent mask legislation to be introduced this year, or would that be more likely in 2022?

The only way to stop this is by people refusing to do it. Once I’m fully vaccinated I’m not wearing a mask.

 

[kristiang85]

, Farage has been unusually quiet about all of this hasn’t he

Indeed. What's he up to? Hasn't he got a new anti lockdown party he wants us to vote for? And I thought any civil liberty restriction on pubs he would be down on like a ton of bricks.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Indeed. What's he up to? Hasn't he got a new anti lockdown party he wants us to vote for? And I thought any civil liberty restriction on pubs he would be down on like a ton of bricks.

I thought he did, but to be honest I have never trusted him, he always seemed to slick for me to ever trust him

If there are any restrictions on going to the pub then I can see speakeasies playing a part in helping people avoid gestapo papers, pubs in basements and what not, then years from now the government will wonder why this is happening, it happened before and it looks like the 2020s will be much like the 1920s

Illegal raves will probably make a return as well, even underground theatres, the youth and those who hate being told what to do will always find a way around things

Add that to the fact that I don’t think many pubs will actually enforce this due to the fact that these measures are discriminatory, plenty of BAME people do not want the vaccine so excluding a BAME person from a venue will look racist, and a return to the “no blacks, no Irish, no dogs” signs, Boris and his goons don’t really think about these things they react before thinking of the consequences

 

[duncanp]

I thought he did, but to be honest I have never trusted him, he always seemed to slick for me to ever trust him

If there are any restrictions on going to the pub then I can see speakeasies playing a part in helping people avoid gestapo papers, pubs in basements and what not, then years from now the government will wonder why this is happening, it happened before and it looks like the 2020s will be much like the 1920s

Illegal raves will probably make a return as well, even underground theatres, the youth and those who hate being told what to do will always find a way around things

Add that to the fact that I don’t think many pubs will actually enforce this due to the fact that these measures are discriminatory, plenty of BAME people do not want the vaccine so excluding a BAME person from a venue will look racist, and a return to the “no blacks, no Irish, no dogs” signs, Boris and his goons don’t really think about these things they react before thinking of the consequences

I can see a lot country pubs, plus those in towns and cities that are off the beaten track, just quietly ignoring the rules.

Rather like the situation before they changed the licensing laws in 2005 when some pubs would close the doors and curtains at 11pm and carry on serving until the early hours of the morning.

Pregnant women are another group who would be excluded from pubs and other venues under these rules. I can foresee a court case if Boris goes ahead with vaccine passports.

And if he tries to impose the rules on pubs, but not cafes and other indoor settings, then someone like Tim Martin from Wetherspoons is also likely to launch a legal challenge.

 

[birchesgreen]

Pregnant women are another group who would be excluded from pubs and other venues under these rules. I can foresee a court case if Boris goes ahead with vaccine passports.

Very embarrassing for the PM as there would be a good chance he would be the father.