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Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

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NorthKent1989

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It does seem the goal posts keep changing, get vaccinated to return to normal, yet not only does normality now mean showing papers to have a coffee or a pint or do everyday things but now we can’t even meet indoors

Vaccinated people should not meet indoors because jabs "are not giving 100 per cent protection", the Prime Minister has warned.

In a Twitter video answering questions from the public, Boris Johnson said the country is "not yet" at the stage where families and friends can meet inside, even if they are immunised.

"We're still very much in a world where you can meet friends and family outdoors under the rule of six or two households," he said. "And even though your friends and family members may be vaccinated, the vaccines are not giving 100 per cent protection, and that's why we just need to be cautious.

"We don't think that they entirely reduce or remove the risk of transmission," the Prime Minister warned.
 
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It does seem the goal posts keep changing, get vaccinated to return to normal, yet not only does normality now mean showing nazi papers to have a coffee or a pint or do everyday things but now we can’t even meet indoors


So if the vaccine isn't 100% effective, how would a vaccine passport actually work?
 

Darandio

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That bloke won't be 'warning' me much longer. I should be due my first shot next month and i'll take it, i'll also still wear a mask where required but won't be visiting anywhere that requires papers. Once the second shot has been administered then i'm done and the mask is coming off for good. If that means a load of companies don't want my business, their loss.
 

NorthKent1989

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So if the vaccine isn't 100% effective, how would a vaccine passport actually work?

Good question, and it makes the vaccine passport utterly redundant
As Starmer has said if enough people are vaccinated and hospital admissions have dropped which they will then there is no point for them
 

Class 33

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Two little snippets of news from Sky News......

'I'm not an investigator': Pub landlord hits back at vaccine passports
Many pubs and bars have criticised the prime minister's suggestion that vaccine passports could be used to allow drinkers entry.
Steve Davis, who runs The Avon Packet in Bristol, is no exception.
He tells Sky News that he does not want the extra responsibility, saying: "The bottom line is we're here to serve beer and to take money.
"I'm not an investigator. I don't wanna check 'excuse me Chip, have you got your pass?'"
He adds: "Test and Trace was bad enough."

expanded thumbnail

I think many other publicans will be feeling just the same about this bonkers vaccine passport proposal!


And also......

Tory MP says he believes vaccine passport idea for pubs will be dropped

Conservative Tobias Ellwood has joined the voices criticising Boris Johnson's suggestion that vaccine passports could be used in pubs.

He said that while he could see such measures being used for international travel, it would be "wrong" to use them within the UK.

"We're almost out of the woods and it seems, I think, wrong to try and then impose some form of passport situation on a hospitality industry when if we bide our time, if we are careful about this, the R rating is beginning to fall," he told Sky News.

"We'll get our economy open by the summer anyway. Let's not actually test the tensions of the nation by dividing us in this way."

He said he believes "Number 10 is going to drop this now because a lot of voices right across the political picture have come forward and said this is not going to work."

Let's hope so!
 

kez19

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Good question, and it makes the vaccine passport utterly redundant
As Starmer has said if enough people are vaccinated and hospital admissions have dropped which they will then there is no point for them


Even at local level people I have spoken too don't even want it, who is driving this? Is it really the politicians or the media? (asked this before) but I am beginning to wonder if this is becoming a media driven "event", where politicians have the media over a barrel, where I think in this case it could be the media have politicians over a barrel. I know what I say maybe at a stretch but its odd as in how the media treats certain politicians whilst scolding others (there must be something in it for them behind the scenes we are not seeing?).
 

NorthKent1989

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Two little snippets of news from Sky News......



I think many other publicans will be feeling just the same about this bonkers vaccine passport proposal!


And also......



Let's hope so!

Judging by how vocal people have been about domestic passports and how negatively such measures have been received by the very same people who back lockdown initially, I do believe that these will be dropped.

Even at local level people I have spoken too don't even want it, who is driving this? Is it really the politicians or the media? (asked this before) but I am beginning to wonder if this is becoming a media driven "event", where politicians have the media over a barrel, where I think in this case it could be the media have politicians over a barrel. I know what I say maybe at a stretch but its odd as in how the media treats certain politicians whilst scolding others (there must be something in it for them behind the scenes we are not seeing?).

It does seem that the media has been holding the government over a barrel over this, Boris seems to react to what ever is said in the media
 

kez19

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Judging by how vocal people have been about domestic passports and how negatively such measures have been received by the very same people who back lockdown initially, I do believe that these will be dropped.



It does seem that the media has been holding the government over a barrel over this, Boris seems to react to what ever is said in the media

Its something I have said on here (not this thread) but this whole media in a way are complicit in this. I can look at it this way.

Nicola Sturgeon - media fawn over her both UK/Scottish - anything recently being held to account bounces off - yet copies Boris and anything fails no account (hence the fawn and again happy giving Boris a kick but not her).
Boris Johnson - media give him a kick in no matter the direction he goes, but yet seem to drive the situation but want to hold him to account no matter.

I just believe in general media are driving/controling this, its moved from being political where PM can decide truly the direction but media would rather choose for him.

As I said in terms of Nicola Sturgeon the direction she chooses be following Boris is less held to account even as an example the zero covid approach last summer (media don't hold her to account they just push over).

I find it rather amusing that Boris thinks people aren't already meeting indoors, vaccinated or not.


I just thought of something, if two people can't meet indoors does that include close family already vaccinated that you live with? If so thats totally blown out the water and how stupid these government(s) control are going/getting. Boris and devolved nations are definately in for a rude awakening I reckon, anyone got popcorn at the ready?
 
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RomeoCharlie71

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And that confirms it.

BREAKING: Social Distancing to be dropped this summer in places where people have either been vaccinated or tested

So places who accept clean people will be able to drop the anti-social distancing; venues with dirty people will have to keep it in place.

The full article is available here: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14533623/brits-pub-gardens-shops-hairdressers-open-lockdown-covid/, the relevant section says:
Mr Johnson is also expected to unveil plans for vaccine passports to allow businesses to drop social distancing measures this summer if they check punters have been jabbed or tested.
 

yorkie

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Government messaging is terrible; it appears to be along these lines:

Vaccines are okay but not great. People who are unhappy that they are not so great be should still get vaccinated because if you don't, you will have to continue to social distance. Therefore, get the vaccine to avoid the hassle of social distancing.

This is completely misleading and incorrect.

Surely this can't be happening!
 

kez19

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Government messaging is terrible; it appears to be along these lines:

Vaccines are okay but not great. People who are unhappy that they are not so great be should still get vaccinated because if you don't, you will have to continue to social distance. Therefore, get the vaccine to avoid the hassle of social distancing.

This is completely misleading and incorrect.

Surely this can't be happening!

The words crap and fan springs to mind
 

HSTEd

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Why is everyone so surprised?

It was inevitable that this would happen.

The roadmap wasn't worth the paper it was printed on - there will be permits for going to hospitality venues for the forseable future.
 

NorthKent1989

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And that confirms it.



So places who accept clean people will be able to drop the anti-social distancing; venues with dirty people will have to keep it in place.

The full article is available here: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14533623/brits-pub-gardens-shops-hairdressers-open-lockdown-covid/, the relevant section says:

There will still be pushback, who exactly is going to check on who’s been vaccinated and who hasn’t? Boris is milking this so he can look like a Churchill when in fact he’ll go down as a Hitler

MP’s and groups across the political spectrum are against this, the hospitality industry is against this, I can guarantee that “dirty pubs” will get more custom
 

Tomp94

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Covid Passports set to last for a year.
So we're NOT going back to "normal" in June!

Anyway, it's just a year of covid passports, its just 53 weeks into the 3 weeks to flatten the curve, its just one christmas, its just two easters, its just two mothers day, its just your wedding, its just children's education, its just your business, its just temporary!!!
 

Gadget88

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I’m confused a few posts said these proposals could be dropped then I read he will plough on ahead anyway?
 

NorthKent1989

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It’s like Boris doesn’t want to be PM anymore.

Good luck with passing vaccine passports because it’ll either fail or people will find ways around it

I’m confused a few posts said these proposals could be dropped then I read he will plough on ahead anyway?

There has been growing backlash but Boris seems determined to press ahead with it
 

brad465

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It does seem that the media has been holding the government over a barrel over this, Boris seems to react to what ever is said in the media

Its something I have said on here (not this thread) but this whole media in a way are complicit in this. I can look at it this way.

Nicola Sturgeon - media fawn over her both UK/Scottish - anything recently being held to account bounces off - yet copies Boris and anything fails no account (hence the fawn and again happy giving Boris a kick but not her).
Boris Johnson - media give him a kick in no matter the direction he goes, but yet seem to drive the situation but want to hold him to account no matter.

I just believe in general media are driving/controling this, its moved from being political where PM can decide truly the direction but media would rather choose for him.
The Media trying to lobby the Government for its interests is hardly new, they've been doing this for at least as long as Rupert Murdoch has owned many of the papers. That said they've exploited Johnson being weak and thus had more control over him than over previous Governments.
 

kez19

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The Media trying to lobby the Government for its interests is hardly new, they've been doing this for at least as long as Rupert Murdoch has owned many of the papers. That said they've exploited Johnson being weak and thus had more control over him than over previous Governments.


I remember the whole Murdoch thing and that’s going back to the last days of The News of the World!


I could say it this way has let the media control the situation, us in Scotland it’s more of Sturgeon controls the media shame really on both sides as it proves a point the media need now held to account too.

I still believe however that MSM shine is coming to an end and I think COVID in a way may come across as a success to them it’ll be their own downfall when dirt starts getting thrown (this just opinion and could be the next thing to come out in the wash)
 

yorkie

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Covid Passports set to last for a year...
For international travel they could potentially be required for a few years.

But for domestic use, I see only a limited lifespan.

If vaccine take-up is really high (which it would be if Government got its messaging right) then they should never be needed. They are arguably not viable until everyone has been offered the vaccine and the chance to get a valid vaccine passport issued; once nearly everyone has been vaccinated the whole concept is effectively redundant.

So by pressing ahead with this ludicrous plan, it's almost as if the Government expects take-up to be low.
 

Gadget88

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For international travel they could potentially be required for a few years.

But for domestic use, I see only a limited lifespan.

If vaccine take-up is really high (which it would be if Government got its messaging right) then they should never be needed. They are arguably not viable until everyone has been offered the vaccine and the chance to get a valid vaccine passport issued; once nearly everyone has been vaccinated the whole concept is effectively redundant.

So by pressing ahead with this ludicrous plan, it's almost as if the Government expects take-up to be low.
At what point would they end for international travel once most are vaccinated? What if rates are lower in France or will the virus just burn itself out? I agree though they won’t be going away in short term for travel but if we are going to treat this like the flu restrictions have it end too.
 

Class 33

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For international travel they could potentially be required for a few years.

But for domestic use, I see only a limited lifespan.

If vaccine take-up is really high (which it would be if Government got its messaging right) then they should never be needed. They are arguably not viable until everyone has been offered the vaccine and the chance to get a valid vaccine passport issued; once nearly everyone has been vaccinated the whole concept is effectively redundant.

So by pressing ahead with this ludicrous plan, it's almost as if the Government expects take-up to be low.

If this ludicrous plan does go ahead then yes hopefully it will only be for a limited lifespan, until the end of September. As that is when the recently extended Coronavirus legislation is due to expire. If there will be another vote in September for that legislation to be extended yet again for another 6 months, then surely by then with the absurdly low hospital numbers and daily Covid deaths by then - that parliament will have enough sense to overwhelmingly vote against this.
 

yorkie

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At what point would they end for international travel once most are vaccinated?
As stated before, I expect many countries will require passengers to be vaccinated or have a negative test to enter the country. We don't know what decisions will be taken by individual countries.

What if rates are lower in France
Ask Macron!

or will the virus just burn itself out?
As said before, I think the virus is endemic and will reach endemic equilibrium with seasonal cycles, as we see with other respiratory viruses. I could be wrong. No-one knows.

I agree though they won’t be going away in short term for travel but if we are going to treat this like the flu restrictions have it end too.
I think in the longer term not many countries are likely to deem it to be any more important than flu; indeed I believe the Sars-CoV-2 vaccines are going to be significantly more effective than influenza vaccines, and that influenza will be seen as the bigger threat. But I could be wrong and I do not know when that will happen in any given country that you may want to visit or whether any particular country may require vaccination against any particular virus as I just don't think anyone can really predict that, other than by making an educated guess.
 

HSTEd

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Vaccine passports, if introduced, will be permanent.

When no major resurgence occurs, because one probably won't happen, they will be the things that are credited for avoiding it.

There will be threats of mass deaths of photogenic grandparents unless they are kept peramenntly.
 

brad465

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And that confirms it.



So places who accept clean people will be able to drop the anti-social distancing; venues with dirty people will have to keep it in place.

The full article is available here: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14533623/brits-pub-gardens-shops-hairdressers-open-lockdown-covid/, the relevant section says:
Despite The Sun releasing this story it's not on their front page tomorrow, which is this instead:

1617404539135.png

We'll know exactly what the plans are come Johnson's announcement on Monday, where he's expected to give details on the Passport studying alongside the status of April 12th planned easements.
 

Tomp94

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For international travel they could potentially be required for a few years.

But for domestic use, I see only a limited lifespan.

If vaccine take-up is really high (which it would be if Government got its messaging right) then they should never be needed. They are arguably not viable until everyone has been offered the vaccine and the chance to get a valid vaccine passport issued; once nearly everyone has been vaccinated the whole concept is effectively redundant.

So by pressing ahead with this ludicrous plan, it's almost as if the Government expects take-up to be low.
I suspect the vaccine passport bit will be time limited, but it'll morph into a digital I.D very fast indeed.
 

MikeWM

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It does say that Starmer hasn’t said if his party is voting against them, but there are some big Corbyn allies who are against it, and seeing as Corbyn himself has said he will vote against them this will sway a lot of labour MPs who are still Corbynistas and will want to show their loyalty to him rather than Starmer.

Pleased to see that Corbyn, despite not getting much right about the approach to Covid for the last year, hasn't lost his principles on this most important of issues. Like his mentor Tony Benn, he was very strongly against ID cards previously - one of the many reasons I was somewhat of a fan of his.

Indeed it looks like a coalition is coming together that is remarkably similar in composition to that which opposed Blair's ID cards.

Every Government, once it has been in power too long, gets the ID card bug. Thatcher tried to introduce it for football, Major had it in his 1997 manifesto, and of course Blair almost managed to achieve it.

--

And that confirms it.



So places who accept clean people will be able to drop the anti-social distancing; venues with dirty people will have to keep it in place.

Given I thought that was exactly what the plan was a few days ago, sometimes I think I should give in and work for the evil side. I could charge consulting fees :-/

--

I suspect the vaccine passport bit will be time limited, but it'll morph into a digital I.D very fast indeed.

Yes, I'm sure the plan is to get us accustomed to the idea and the process. The current specific 'reason' for it is just a massively convenient gift for those who have wanted this for many years to get the concept introduced.
 
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duncanp

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I think the extent to which vaccine passports will be required will be decided nearer to 21st June, depending on:-

  • The percentage of people who have been vaccinated
  • The number of new cases, and the number of people in hospital
  • The level of opposition from MPs and the businesses which are affected
  • Public opinion
  • The local and national election results
  • Whether there is the threat of any court cases, and legal opinion as to whether such court cases might succeed.
At the moment, the threat of vaccine passports is being used to cajole people who might be hesitant into having a vaccine.

Hence we have the somewhat pathetic statement by Oliver Dowden that "..it is not about vaccine passports, it is about COVID status certification...." What a load of nonsense. It is one thing to have "clean pubs" and "dirty pubs", but quite another to make people either "clean" or "dirty" depending on their "COVID status".

If the vaccine take up is sufficiently high, or if the government gets a bloody nose in the local elections, I think you will see vaccine passports quietly dropped, or at least reduced in scope so that they only apply to certain mass participation events.

Edit:-

Some good news though.

In a clear sign that the government is rattled by the level of opposition to vaccine passports, it has been reported that the government is going to make their use time limited, with the duration measured "..in months..".

But the opposition is not wearing this for one minute, saying it is the principle of vaccine passports (or so called "COVID Status Certification") that they are opposed to.

After all the broken promises by the government, who is going to believe them when they say that "COVID Status Certification" will be only be mandatory for "..a few months..."


A 'time limit' of less than a year could be imposed on the vaccine passport scheme to head off a Tory revolt on the issue, the Mail can reveal.

Boris Johnson will give the green light on Monday to the development of a system of 'vaccine certification' as he looks to reinvigorate the economy.

Ministers believe the scheme may be essential in reopening venues such as theatres and stadiums which rely on large crowds.

But the idea of creating a new 'Checkpoint Britain' has led to a fierce cross-party backlash, with 72 MPs yesterday signing a pledge to oppose the 'divisive and discriminatory' scheme.

There was also a huge outcry over the plans yesterday, with a litany of critics branding the idea as oppressive.

The policy was even criticised by a Government adviser, with Professor Robert West warning they would give people a false sense of security.

The scale of the opposition presents a potential major problem for Mr Johnson if the plans require primary legislation to enact them.

And last night, a Whitehall source told the Mail ministers would try to win round furious Tory MPs by reassuring them that any new passport scheme would be temporary.

While no decision has been taken on how long any scheme should last, the source said it was likely to be no more than a year.

'It will be time-limited and I think the duration of the scheme will be measured in months,' the source said.

'The party will not wear any longer.'

The move came ahead of a major announcement by the PM on Monday where he will address not just vaccine passports, but the Government plans for holidays and the next phase of lockdown

Culture Secretary Oliver Dowden yesterday defended the idea of so-called 'Covid status certification', saying it could help people get back to 'doing the things they love', such as going to the theatre or attending live concerts and sports events.

Ministers are hoping to pilot the use of vaccine passports at major events within weeks, with the FA Cup final and the World Snooker Championship among those being considered for trials.

Mr Dowden stressed that vaccine status is only one element of the scheme, with people also able to show a negative Covid test or prove they have already had the virus to gain entry.

He told the BBC: 'This is not about a vaccine passport, this is about looking at ways of proving that you are Covid secure, whether you have had a test or had the vaccine. Clearly, no decisions have been made on that, because we have to weigh up different factors, the ethical considerations and so on, but it may be a way of ensuring we can get more people back doing the things they love.'

But Tory critics of the idea yesterday stepped up their opposition – and warned that a time limit would not be enough to tackle their concerns.

Former minister Steve Baker warned that any temporary scheme could be renewed – and pointed out that income tax had started life as a temporary measure.

Mr Baker, deputy chairman of the 70-strong Covid Recovery Group of MPs, said: 'MPs and the public shouldn't kid themselves. The state has always wanted ID cards, so this scheme would be about as temporary as income tax – in other words, permanent.'

Fellow Tory Andrew Bridgen said backbench opposition was based on principle rather than the duration of any scheme.

Mr Bridgen described the idea as a 'vision of hell', adding: 'Who would have thought the British public would ever have to show their papers to go to the pub? The whole idea is like something out of North Korea, and I hope that the strength of feeling, not just on the Conservative benches but across Parliament will stop the Government heading off in this direction.'

Some 41 Conservative MPs signed the pledge against vaccine passports organised by the pressure group Big Brother Watch – enough to wipe out the Government's 80-strong majority.

One MP said the fate of vaccine passports was now 'in Keir Starmer's hands'.

The Labour leader suggested this week the idea of vaccine passports went against the 'British instinct', but party sources said voting decisions would depend on the detail of the Government's plans.

Shami Chakrabarti, the former shadow attorney general, launched an impassioned attack on the idea of creating a 'Checkpoint Britain'.

Baroness Chakrabarti, a former director of the civil rights group Liberty, told BBC Radio Four's Today programme: 'It's dangerous, it's discriminatory, it's counter-productive... It's one thing to have a passport to travel internationally, that is a privilege, even a luxury, but participating in local community life is a fundamental right.'

Professor West, a member of a sub-group of the Government's expert scientific committee Sage, said the 'balance of evidence' was against the idea.

He told Times Radio it would be 'discriminatory' to require vaccine certificates in everyday situations such as bars and restaurants, as some people are unable to have the vaccine.

He added that the scheme could give a 'false sense of security' to people who might fail to understand that the vaccine cannot give 100 per cent protection against disease.

It also came as revellers tonight kicked off the four-day Easter weekend as police were forced to break up crowds in Cardiff, Exmouth and Plymouth.

Police sent revellers packing tonight after fights broke out when around 40 people gathered for a party on a beach in Devon despite the ongoing rule of six.

Footage taken by a walker showed more than 100 people along Plymouth Hoe as crowds ignored social distancing measures and in Cardiff photographs showed crowds cramming close together at Cardiff Bay as the sun started to set this afternoon.

It comes after police stepped up patrols and begged parents to control their children over the four-day break, in the wake of carnage seen across the country this week.
 
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