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Vaccine Passports under England 'Plan B'

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MikeWM

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Despite really not wanting to do it - honest - the Government has published more details of how it would implement a 'vaccine passport' scheme under 'Plan B' this autumn/winter. Quite a lot of detail here for something they really don't intend to do...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...tory-covid-certification-in-a-plan-b-scenario

Lowlights for those who don't have the time or stomach:

- Intended to apply to nightclubs, indoor non-seated events of 500+, outdoor non-seated events of 4,000+, any event of 10,000+

- 'The government hopes that it would not be necessary to mandate vaccine certification more widely than these settings, though ... this cannot be entirely ruled out.'
- I'm not sure at this point is that is more or less reassuring than them ruling it out entirely... It probably makes no difference to whether it actually happens or not.​

- 'If mandatory certification were introduced, the NHS COVID Pass would switch so that it certified individuals based on vaccine status only.'
- though - because it doesn't make the slightest amount of sense from a scientific or epidemiological perspective, and so can't be explained in such terms - there is no attempt whatever to try to justify why a negative test wouldn't remain a suitable alternative.​

- 'At this point in time, the government expects that booster jabs would not be required in order to be considered fully vaccinated.'
- though it is amazing how many things have happened in the last 18 months that the government didn't 'expect' to happen...​

- FPN Fines of £10,000 (!) for creating or supplying fake or altered 'passports'.

- Local authorities would have various powers of enforcement against venues, including under the (just renewed until March 2022) 'no. 3' regulations.

- 'If the data suggests the NHS is likely to come under unsustainable pressure, certification may need to be urgently introduced.'
- under the 1984 PHA, yet again. So there may not even be a vote in Parliament until a month after they are introduced...​


There's a 'consultation' attached, but the questions are *extremely* loaded, so people should judge for themselves how useful completing that may be.
 
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NorthKent1989

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I’ve never trusted anything this government has said on the matter of vaccine passports, we’ve given them the inch and they’ve taken 100 miles
 

MikeWM

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One other interesting story from the last few days, which you may want to bear in mind before using the 'NHS App', whether as a vaccine passport or not. I most certainly will not be doing so.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...-companies-analysing-facial-data-from-nhs-app
Undisclosed private companies analysing facial data from NHS app

Undisclosed companies are analysing facial data collected by the NHS app, which is used by more than 16 million English citizens, prompting fresh concern about the role of outsourcing to private businesses in the service.

Data security experts have previously criticised the lack of transparency around a contract with the NHS held by iProov, whose facial verification software is used to perform automated ID checks on people signing up for the NHS app.

The Guardian now understands that French company Teleperformance, which has attracted criticism in the UK over working conditions, uses an opaque chain of subcontractors to perform similar work under two contracts worth £35m.
 

Smidster

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As usual the whole thing just makes absolutely no sense and will have precisely zero impact on spread of the illness.

The decision to no longer allow a testing option is bonkers - Someone who has returned a negative test is much less likely to have, and be able to spread, the virus than someone who has been vaccinated. I know it is easy to doctor the LFD tests but you could solve that rather than just block all those people from society entirely.

If you are having any scheme then it makes no sense to limit it to those settings - there is no functional difference in transmission between an indoor concert of 2,000 people and a crowded tube carriage or a crowded pub on a Friday night. If you are going down this route, which you absolutely shouldn't be, then it should be for everything.

The point about remaining "fully vaccinated" can also not be backed up and sends mixed messages. On the one hand you are saying that effectiveness is waning so much that we need to give you more medicine but on the other it is still fine - someone who has had 1 jab probably has as much protection as 2 jabs + 8 months.

Shame that no-one gives a damn and it will be introduced sooner rather than later - I expect an announcement week after Tory Conference.
 

Cdd89

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If mandatory certification were introduced, the NHS COVID Pass would switch so that it certified individuals based on vaccine status only.'
- though - because it doesn't make the slightest amount of sense from a scientific or epidemiological perspective, and so can't be explained in such terms - there is no attempt whatever to try to justify why a negative test wouldn't remain a suitable alternative.
That bit is easy. It is because vaccine passports applied to targeted settings are not that effective in the first place at preventing spread. The epidemiological case is weak to begin with, once a spike is underway most infections are in the home, workplace, or with friends; contexts that are hard to restrict.

The actual purpose of vaccine passports is to coerce people into getting vaccinated — which absolutely will reduce negative outcomes, healthcare pressure, etc. Of course that is quite unethical, so can never be directly stated, instead focusing on risk reduction language.
 

MikeWM

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The actual purpose of vaccine passports is to coerce people into getting vaccinated — which absolutely will reduce negative outcomes, healthcare pressure, etc. Of course that is quite unethical, so can never be directly stated, instead focusing on risk reduction language.

But the evidence shows that, if your aim is high vaccine uptake, this sort of coersion is actually counterproductive.
 

Cdd89

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But the evidence shows that, if your aim is high vaccine uptake, this sort of coersion is actually counterproductive.
Sure if implemented at the start. Indeed someone I know in the US who has healthcare issues and was on the verge of getting vaccinated with the JnJ jab, but who recently decided against it (again) following Biden’s mandate, and I can’t say I blame them.

But the order matters; and at this stage I suspect that is the minority. I don’t imagine there are many people who currently have not been vaccinated who are on the precipice of being convinced. The government doesn’t need to “convince” the already vaccinated.

To rephrase, of the 9% unvaccinated, let’s imagine that 2% are slowly being convinced and would get vaccinated in the next few weeks, and 7% will not do so ever. Passports might make half of the 2% decide against it, especially if their reasons involve distrust of government. The effect on the remaining 7% is unknown, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to assume it would persuade more than 1% of that group, depending on how widely and for how long passports are used (prediction: very widely, and for ages). Even if the remaining <6% decide even more strongly that they are never getting vaccinated, that has no negative effect on vaccination rates.

To be clear, I strongly disagree with it and think that it is quite unethical; but that’s different from thinking it won’t work.
 

Highlandspring

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The actual purpose of vaccine passports is to coerce people into getting vaccinated — which absolutely will reduce negative outcomes, healthcare pressure, etc. Of course that is quite unethical, so can never be directly stated, instead focusing on risk reduction language.
The Scottish Government and its Ministers have directly stated this several times as their justification for introducing this highly illogical and discriminatory scheme. Even just this morning I heard a news report on the radio about the launch of the scheme on Friday, which concluded with the phrase “A spokesperson for the Scottish Government said that vaccine passports were vital to increase vaccination uptake” ... That was it, no further justification provided.
 

MikeWM

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To be clear, I strongly disagree with it and think that it is quite unethical; but that’s different from thinking it won’t work.

But you're talking about upending society and totally rewriting the contract between the individual and the state - in order to perhaps increase the final vaccination rate from 93% to 94%. And most of that 1% extra will have no need for vaccination anyway. No government could possibly believe that to be a rational decision. If that was really the reason, then they are totally deranged.

Of course - in my opinion - the real reason is to bring in a social credit system. The vaccines are a trojan horse for the passport, not the other way around.
 

Cdd89

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But you're talking about upending society and totally rewriting the contract between the individual and the state - in order to perhaps increase the final vaccination rate from 93% to 94%. And most of that 1% extra will have no need for vaccination anyway. No government could possibly believe that to be a rational decision. If that was really the reason, then they are totally deranged.
Through all three lockdowns we have acted on the basis that anything that can be done to reduce the impact of Covid must be done regardless of any other deleterious effects. See: bans on meeting outdoors, implicit restrictions on travelling too far from home, closing some shops but not others, closing gyms, banning social exercise, etc. Plus some bonus pointless ones in the case of Scotland and Wales.

The above was supported by the vast majority of the population (in polls, not in actions); and there was plenty of highly vocal criticism that any remaining opportunities meant we were "not in a real lockdown". I don't believe people's attitudes have changed, and the moment there is a hint of "healthcare overwhelm" (bearing in mind that, as places like Florida have proved, the definition of this is highly social/political!) and/or an unacceptable death level (and those pushing for restrictions happily include unvaccinated deaths in the scary totals they shout about), people will support any measure, especially one that doesn't inconvenience themselves.
 

Merseysider

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I’ve never trusted anything this government has said
Full stop ;)

Honestly, they’ve done so many U-turns and double-u turns (would that be a W-turn?) that I’ve stopped watching their briefings / reading their announcements.

Many of the measures the government have introduced have been so watered-down or unenforceable that it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s just much ado about nothing and we don’t end up seeing the mandation of VP at all, regardless of what’s in their “Plan B.”

I’m just amazed they have a plan at all, let alone a backup :lol:
 

Eyersey468

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I don't trust anything this government says either. Far too many u turns and lies.
 

Bikeman78

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- FPN Fines of £10,000 (!) for creating or supplying fake or altered 'passports'.
Am I the only one that thinks this is somewhat disproportionate?

But the evidence shows that, if your aim is high vaccine uptake, this sort of coersion is actually counterproductive.
Exactly. If I didn't want to do something, this would only make me dig my heels in. I doubt there are many people out there who have not been vaccinated because they can't be bothered. It will be a deliberate decision. If the reduced risk of death doesn't convince them then almost nothing will.
 
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NorthKent1989

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Full stop ;)

Honestly, they’ve done so many U-turns and double-u turns (would that be a W-turn?) that I’ve stopped watching their briefings / reading their announcements.

Many of the measures the government have introduced have been so watered-down or unenforceable that it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s just much ado about nothing and we don’t end up seeing the mandation of VP at all, regardless of what’s in their “Plan B.”

I’m just amazed they have a plan at all, let alone a backup :lol:

This is exactly my thinking as well, aside from the fact that vaccine passports are unworkable, they do nothing to stop the spread.

The passports are like track and trace all over again, they were enforced for about a fortnight then 70% of venues and indoor spaces basically dropped them, 20% would do a paper version and the remaining 10% still persisted in enforcing it.

I said in another thread that vaccine passports are a metaphorical tin can being kicked down the down until the next big crisis when Covid is consigned to the same graveyard of hysteria where Brexit now resides.

Plus the fact that we have been pretty much back to 2019 levels of normality for nearly three months now, pubs and bars open, theatres open, public transport is busier than ever before, indoor household mixing, we are basically living with Covid now, if they really intended to introduce the passports they would have done so way back in July ahead of reopening, to try and do so in October or November (whenever the metaphorical tin can lands on) would be political suicide, and there would be pushback.
 

Cdd89

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It’s disproportionate for sure. Also in line with what we’d expect from a government who put in place a £10,000 fine for anyone having a party.
£10,000 is the government's standard PCN for any offence where the chance of getting caught is approximately zero. See also: failing to declare a red list country.

to try and do so in October or November (whenever the metaphorical tin can lands on) would be political suicide, and there would be pushback.
Who would the pushback come from? Not from Labour (they've already said they support them for non-essential services); and probably not from the ~90% who are fully vaccinated: if there wasn't significant pushback to lockdowns or masks, why would there be significant pushback to vaccine passports, which have almost no effect on the day-to-day lives 90% of people? Remember we've already been conditioned into showing our phones to get into restaurants with all this "scan the QR code to track and trace" nonsense; most people won't perceive a significant difference. Especially if they are introduced as the media narrative is pushing a message of "overwhelmed healthcare" and report after report stating that most of those in hospital are unvaccinated.

There would of course be huge pushback from the freedom protestors, but regrettably they have been completely discredited, as due to unfair reporting they are represented by the most extreme element ("5G", "microchips", etc). Which is one reason I have never joined such a protest despite having a lot of sympathy for their cause.
 
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Yew

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Indeed, a few pictures of sad looking actors in their 70’s, some emotional blackmail, and the media can push for any idiotic scheme.
 

MikeWM

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Through all three lockdowns we have acted on the basis that anything that can be done to reduce the impact of Covid must be done regardless of any other deleterious effects.

Or indeed, regardless of whether it actually had an impact on 'the impact of Covid' or not. From around early summer last year, these actions however had two purposes : (a) to make our lives so miserable that we'd accept the false dicotomy that we have to have restrictions on 'normality' that we otherwise would never have accepted, because the alternative is 'worse', and (b) condition us to requiring 'permission', by showing compliance with government dictat, to do things that we could previously do freely.

Some may think that accidental or coincidental. To me however, it makes a lot more sense to see these actions as a deliberate set of steps to lead to the rollout of a social credit system.

The above was supported by the vast majority of the population (in polls, not in actions); and there was plenty of highly vocal criticism that any remaining opportunities meant we were "not in a real lockdown". I don't believe people's attitudes have changed, and the moment there is a hint of "healthcare overwhelm" (bearing in mind that, as places like Florida have proved, the definition of this is highly social/political!) and/or an unacceptable death level (and those pushing for restrictions happily include unvaccinated deaths in the scary totals they shout about), people will support any measure, especially one that doesn't inconvenience themselves.

I suspect you're entirely correct, precisely because the abusive actions of the government over the last 18 months have been cleverly designed to produce exactly that outcome.

However, it should be clear that the idea that a 'papers please' society inconveniences *everyone*, irrespective of what criteria are required to qualify for the 'papers'. The criteria will categorically *not* remain as 'double vaccinated'. If the ~90% think so, they're falling into a bear trap.

Remember we've already been conditioned into showing our phones to get into restaurants with all this "scan the QR code to track and trace" nonsense; most people won't perceive a significant difference.

Exactly as I pointed out on here precisely a year ago:

MikeWM said:
I don’t think the app itself is necessarily the issue - what it does currently is fairly benign - but it is conditioning us to a behaviour of getting permission to enter places, where previously we would be expected to be able to enter freely unless there was a good reason not to.

The logical next step will be for the app (this one or another) to show whether we are *allowed* into places, based on whether we’ve passed a test recently and/or been vaccinated.

I thought it entirely deliberate then. I still do. I have never shown or scanned a QR code to go anywhere or do anything, for precisely this reason.

There would of course be huge pushback from the freedom protestors, but regrettably they have been completely discredited, as due to unfair reporting they are represented by the most extreme element ("5G", "microchips", etc). Which is one reason I have never joined such a protest despite having a lot of sympathy for their cause.

I suspect there is an element of 'controlled opposition' in play here. If I were the Government trying to push something deeply unpopular through, its the first thing I'd do - because it is a very effective mechanism of suppressing dissent, as your statement 'I have never joined such a protest despite having a lot of sympathy for their cause' proves.
 

NorthKent1989

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£10,000 is the government's standard PCN for any offence where the chance of getting caught is approximately zero. See also: failing to declare a red list country.


Who would the pushback come from? Not from Labour (they've already said they support them for non-essential services); and probably not from the ~90% who are fully vaccinated: if there wasn't significant pushback to lockdowns or masks, why would there be significant pushback to vaccine passports, which have almost no effect on the day-to-day lives 90% of people? Remember we've already been conditioned into showing our phones to get into restaurants with all this "scan the QR code to track and trace" nonsense; most people won't perceive a significant difference. Especially if they are introduced as the media narrative is pushing a message of "overwhelmed healthcare" and report after report stating that most of those in hospital are unvaccinated.

There would of course be huge pushback from the freedom protestors, but regrettably they have been completely discredited, as due to unfair reporting they are represented by the most extreme element ("5G", "microchips", etc). Which is one reason I have never joined such a protest despite having a lot of sympathy for their cause.

Maybe, but many businesses have come against such measures, the Lib Dem’s have been vocal about passports, with leader Ed Davey saying they’re unethical, Labour themselves aren’t completely United over this issue, the Corbynist wing has voiced their concerns about them, sadly the mainstream media I has painted Freedom protesters as being “Covidiots” when In actual fact it’s people who are human rights activists, even people who are vaccinated have been joining in the marches.

I see passports will become a thing n Wales soon, it would have been a stalemate but a Tory mp couldn’t log on to the zoom call where the vote was taking place therefore passports won by one vote ahead of anti passport mp
 
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MikeWM

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A quick reminder that today is the last day to answer the 'consultation' on vaccine passports under the government's 'plan B'.

https://consultations.dhsc.gov.uk/61497f68de8e5f098521be3a

The questions are very loaded and biased, but that isn't exactly surprising...

Big Brother Watch has some advice on filling it in

https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/2021...ernments-new-consultation-on-covid-passports/

I've no idea if filling this in will make the slightest bit of difference - probably not - but it may be somewhat cathartic anyway.


England - apart from some states of the USA - now appears to be alone in the English-speaking world in not quite having got to the stage of a 'papers please' society. It would be nice to keep it that way.
 
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Dent

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A quick reminder that today is the last day to answer the 'consultation' on vaccine passports under the government's 'plan B'.

https://consultations.dhsc.gov.uk/61497f68de8e5f098521be3a

The questions are very loaded and biased, but that isn't exactly surprising...

Big Brother Watch has some advice on filling it in

https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/2021...ernments-new-consultation-on-covid-passports/

I've no idea if filling this in will make the slightest bit of difference - probably not - but it may be somewhat cathartic anyway.


England - apart from some states of the USA - now appears to be alone in the English-speaking world in not quite having got to the stage of a 'papers please' society. It would be nice to keep it that way.
Please check the links, it looks like both links point to the Big Brother Watch page.
 

NorthKent1989

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A quick reminder that today is the last day to answer the 'consultation' on vaccine passports under the government's 'plan B'.

https://consultations.dhsc.gov.uk/61497f68de8e5f098521be3a

The questions are very loaded and biased, but that isn't exactly surprising...

Big Brother Watch has some advice on filling it in

https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/2021...ernments-new-consultation-on-covid-passports/

I've no idea if filling this in will make the slightest bit of difference - probably not - but it may be somewhat cathartic anyway.


England - apart from some states of the USA - now appears to be alone in the English-speaking world in not quite having got to the stage of a 'papers please' society. It would be nice to keep it that way.
It’s insane that England and a few republican states in the US are the few ‘free zones’ left in the Anglosphere, let’s hope we can keep it that way, I cannot see how passports at this point help anybody, they’re a hindrance with zero health benefits.

Quite frankly I hope the passports will be the death knell for some political parties if introduced.
 

Yew

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It’s insane that England and a few republican states in the US are the few ‘free zones’ left in the Anglosphere, let’s hope we can keep it that way, I cannot see how passports at this point help anybody, they’re a hindrance with zero health benefits.
Who needs health benefits, when it means that the bigoted get to feel smug and superior.
 

gordonthemoron

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have all required to see Covid pass on NHS app in the past 10 days. All O2 venues do, as do RAH and Aylesbury Waterside Theatre, that I am aware of. The Covid passport may not be mandatory in England, but venues are doig just the same to ensure that they can stay open & attract customers. More smoke and mirrors
 

Mag_seven

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Quite frankly I hope the passports will be the death knell for some political parties if introduced.

Can't see it I'm afraid as there are far too many people out there who will accept and comply with anything the state orders in order to have an easy life. Don't forget Sturgeon and Drakeford were re-elected despite their draconian Covid rules last year.
 

sjpowermac

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A quick reminder that today is the last day to answer the 'consultation' on vaccine passports under the government's 'plan B'.

https://consultations.dhsc.gov.uk/61497f68de8e5f098521be3a

The questions are very loaded and biased, but that isn't exactly surprising...

Big Brother Watch has some advice on filling it in

https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/2021...ernments-new-consultation-on-covid-passports/

I've no idea if filling this in will make the slightest bit of difference - probably not - but it may be somewhat cathartic anyway.


England - apart from some states of the USA - now appears to be alone in the English-speaking world in not quite having got to the stage of a 'papers please' society. It would be nice to keep it that way.
Done. Agree, the whole idea is abhorrent. I see what you mean about loaded questions, I think an 11 year old would be able to spot where that went horribly wrong.
 

Eyersey468

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A quick reminder that today is the last day to answer the 'consultation' on vaccine passports under the government's 'plan B'.

https://consultations.dhsc.gov.uk/61497f68de8e5f098521be3a

The questions are very loaded and biased, but that isn't exactly surprising...

Big Brother Watch has some advice on filling it in

https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/2021...ernments-new-consultation-on-covid-passports/

I've no idea if filling this in will make the slightest bit of difference - probably not - but it may be somewhat cathartic anyway.


England - apart from some states of the USA - now appears to be alone in the English-speaking world in not quite having got to the stage of a 'papers please' society. It would be nice to keep it that way.
Done. I also see what you mean about loaded questions
 

NorthKent1989

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Who needs health benefits, when it means that the bigoted get to feel smug and superior.

Indeed, that’s the only health benefit they undeservedly need, quite frankly Covid has exposed a lot of bigots

Can't see it I'm afraid as there are far too many people out there who will accept and comply with anything the state orders in order to have an easy life. Don't forget Sturgeon and Drakeford were re-elected despite their draconian Covid rules last year.

From my understanding, the Scots have been far more compliant than the English have been, track and trace was kept up in Scotland a lot longer than in England and Wales, I have family and friends that live up there and they said it’s been the case.

My only hope is that the Lib Dem’s keep making incursions into middle class suburban Tory areas.

O2 Apollo Manchester
Royal Albert Hall
O2 Islington

have all required to see Covid pass on NHS app in the past 10 days. All O2 venues do, as do RAH and Aylesbury Waterside Theatre, that I am aware of. The Covid passport may not be mandatory in England, but venues are doig just the same to ensure that they can stay open & attract customers. More smoke and mirrors

They’re only hastening their inevitable fall, even the Covid bigots will get tired about getting boosters in the end.
 
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