Vaccine Progress, Approval, and Deployment

[Cdd89]

What those against boosters may be failing to appreciate is that, as those most concerned about Covid risks obtain the maximum possible protection, this reduces the calls for other measures that affect them such as masks.

From this perspective, I would argue that booster doses should probably be unlimited (but chargeable beyond the frequency or age group deemed clinically necessary). The more the anxious can protect themselves, the less they’ll demand others protect them.

Similarly, if a booster (or 2+ doses of vaccination for under 16s) is considered safe but not clinically necessary by the U.K. for a given age group or interval, then I think it should be available anyway but at a fee, in order to enable international travel to countries who have reached a different conclusion.

I expect the real concerns revolve around domestic vaccination requirements requiring 3 doses. I’m certainly against that (or indeed requiring even 2 doses), but the way to prevent that is 1) to ensure the NHS isn’t overloaded (boosters with high pressure to over 60s to accept), and 2) to make sure the anxious feel safe (boosters available to all).

 

[DustyBin]

What those against boosters may be failing to appreciate is that, as those most concerned about Covid risks obtain the maximum possible protection, this reduces the calls for other measures that affect them such as masks.

From this perspective, I would argue that booster doses should probably be unlimited (but chargeable beyond the frequency or age group deemed clinically necessary). The more the anxious can protect themselves, the less they’ll demand others protect them.

Similarly, if a booster (or 2+ doses of vaccination for under 16s) is considered safe but not clinically necessary by the U.K. for a given age group or interval, then I think it should be available anyway but at a fee, in order to enable international travel to countries who have reached a different conclusion.

I expect the real concerns revolve around domestic vaccination requirements requiring 3 doses. I’m certainly against that (or indeed requiring even 2 doses), but the way to prevent that is 1) to ensure the NHS isn’t overloaded (boosters with high pressure to over 60s to accept), and 2) to make sure the anxious feel safe (boosters available to all).

To be honest I don't disagree with any of that. If people want to have one, two, three or indeed no doses that's up to them as far as I'm concerned, although there is a clear benefit to those most vulnerable in taking what's offered. The issue I have is that I believe boosters will be offered to everybody and there will be a degree of pressure/coercion to take it, just as there has been the initial doses. Apart from anything else it risks prolonging the whole charade as with the best will in the world not everybody will want a booster. At this stage I'd far rather we combated calls for restrictions by drawing a line under Covid and declaring an end to the pandemic.

 

[bramling]

To be honest I don't disagree with any of that. If people want to have one, two, three or indeed no doses that's up to them as far as I'm concerned, although there is a clear benefit to those most vulnerable in taking what's offered. The issue I have is that I believe boosters will be offered to everybody and there will be a degree of pressure/coercion to take it, just as there has been the initial doses. Apart from anything else it risks prolonging the whole charade as with the best will in the world not everybody will want a booster. At this stage I'd far rather we combated calls for restrictions by drawing a line under Covid and declaring an end to the pandemic.

It’s already been on the news today, along the lines of “take the booster to avoid restrictions over Christmas”.

Now I’m not sure how serious this is, but one way or other I am absolutely sick of the threats.

I wouldn’t mind so much if the message was “the NHS is going to be under strain over December, January and February, please think carefully about having a booster, as it will reduce the likelihood of you becoming ill, and will help us keep the NHS be able to treat everyone who may need it”.

I’m sick of the threats, and I’m especially sick of Christmas being used as a beating stick (especially as I will be working over most of it, and at the best of times it’s a time of year I despise).

 

[Cdd89]

Apart from anything else it risks prolonging the whole charade as with the best will in the world not everybody will want a booster

I’m fascinated to see what the uptake will be. For what it’s worth I won’t be rushing to get a booster and currently have no plans to visit a country that would require it. The risk Covid now poses to me is so low that it would actually be irrational to focus on it to such an extent, and everyone I know who’s older is now boosted. I’ve always been incredibly confused by vaccine virtue-signalling. (Of course I will cave to fairly mild pressure, like fancying another trip to Israel; it’s certainly not an important point of principle to me!).

At this stage I'd far rather we combated calls for restrictions by drawing a line under Covid and declaring an end to the pandemic.

With boosters, anti-viral drugs and FFP3 masks, anyone concerned can reduce their incremental risk from severe outcomes from Covid (noting that their baseline risk may unfortunately be already very high) to practically zero. This is the point that needs to be forcefully made, but I’d argue that the flip side is easy availability of boosters to all age groups and with unlimited frequency.

 

[yorkie]

What those against boosters may be failing to appreciate is that, as those most concerned about Covid risks obtain the maximum possible protection, this reduces the calls for other measures that affect them such as masks.

From this perspective, I would argue that booster doses should probably be unlimited (but chargeable beyond the frequency or age group deemed clinically necessary). The more the anxious can protect themselves, the less they’ll demand others protect them.

Similarly, if a booster (or 2+ doses of vaccination for under 16s) is considered safe but not clinically necessary by the U.K. for a given age group or interval, then I think it should be available anyway but at a fee, in order to enable international travel to countries who have reached a different conclusion.

I expect the real concerns revolve around domestic vaccination requirements requiring 3 doses. I’m certainly against that (or indeed requiring even 2 doses), but the way to prevent that is 1) to ensure the NHS isn’t overloaded (boosters with high pressure to over 60s to accept), and 2) to make sure the anxious feel safe (boosters available to all).

Good post.

I will take a booster when offered, but I absolutely agree that doing so should be entirely my choice and that it should not be a condition of entry for any domestic establishment. I accept it will be necessary to go abroad to certain countries, which is out of our control.

I would encourage others to take a booster when offered too.

It’s already been on the news today, along the lines of “take the booster to avoid restrictions over Christmas”.

Now I’m not sure how serious this is, but one way or other I am absolutely sick of the threats.

I wouldn’t mind so much if the message was “the NHS is going to be under strain over December, January and February, please think carefully about having a booster, as it will reduce the likelihood of you becoming ill, and will help us keep the NHS be able to treat everyone who may need it”.

I completely agree with this too.

 

[Eyersey468]

It’s already been on the news today, along the lines of “take the booster to avoid restrictions over Christmas”.

Now I’m not sure how serious this is, but one way or other I am absolutely sick of the threats.

I wouldn’t mind so much if the message was “the NHS is going to be under strain over December, January and February, please think carefully about having a booster, as it will reduce the likelihood of you becoming ill, and will help us keep the NHS be able to treat everyone who may need it”.

I’m sick of the threats, and I’m especially sick of Christmas being used as a beating stick (especially as I will be working over most of it, and at the best of times it’s a time of year I despise).

I am also sick of the threats. I am not against boosters I just feel they are only really needed for the most vulnerable.

 

[Bantamzen]

It’s already been on the news today, along the lines of “take the booster to avoid restrictions over Christmas”.

Now I’m not sure how serious this is, but one way or other I am absolutely sick of the threats.

I wouldn’t mind so much if the message was “the NHS is going to be under strain over December, January and February, please think carefully about having a booster, as it will reduce the likelihood of you becoming ill, and will help us keep the NHS be able to treat everyone who may need it”.

I’m sick of the threats, and I’m especially sick of Christmas being used as a beating stick (especially as I will be working over most of it, and at the best of times it’s a time of year I despise).

Yeah, I'm sick of the threats too. It was truly depressing to see the language rolled back towards pre-vaccination, with scary figures and the spectre of more restrictions waved in front of the public again. Meanwhile in the boardrooms at Pfizer & Moderna, I'm sure only the finest champagne was being used for the toasts.....

 

[westv]

I will take a booster when offered, but I absolutely agree that doing so should be entirely my choice and that it should not be a condition of entry for any domestic establishment. I accept it will be necessary to go abroad to certain countries, which is out of our control.

I would encourage others to take a booster when offered too.

I'd 100% agree with that.

 

[Eyersey468]

There's a report in today's Sun that Britain could introduce a lockdown for the unvaccinated. As it includes the media's favourite word could it can be ignored.

UK could follow Germany and plunge unvaccinated into lockdown, expert warns

THE UK could follow Germany and Austria by plunging unvaccinated Britons into lockdown-style measures, it’s feared. As governments in Europe scramble to respond to a dramatic rise in Covid infectio…

www.thesun.co.uk

THE UK could follow Germany and Austria by plunging unvaccinated Britons into lockdown-style measures, it’s feared.

As governments in Europe scramble to respond to a dramatic rise in Covid infections, their focus has been on restricting the lives of those without jabs.

 

[kristiang85]

There's a report in today's Sun that Britain could introduce a lockdown for the unvaccinated. As it includes the media's favourite word could it can be ignored.

UK could follow Germany and plunge unvaccinated into lockdown, expert warns

THE UK could follow Germany and Austria by plunging unvaccinated Britons into lockdown-style measures, it’s feared. As governments in Europe scramble to respond to a dramatic rise in Covid infectio…

www.thesun.co.uk

At the moment it seems to be based on Austria doing it and that dodgy poll yesterday, along with a couple of rent-a-quotes from the usual suspects. I wouldn't worry yet.

 

[Bantamzen]

There's a report in today's Sun that Britain could introduce a lockdown for the unvaccinated. As it includes the media's favourite word could it can be ignored.

UK could follow Germany and plunge unvaccinated into lockdown, expert warns

THE UK could follow Germany and Austria by plunging unvaccinated Britons into lockdown-style measures, it’s feared. As governments in Europe scramble to respond to a dramatic rise in Covid infectio…

www.thesun.co.uk

And in other news, the UK is braced for the worst winter since the end of the Ice Age.....

 

[bramling]

At the moment it seems to be based on Austria doing it and that dodgy poll yesterday, along with a couple of rent-a-quotes from the usual suspects. I wouldn't worry yet.

The difficulty is we’ve seen other countries follow the pack. Wasn’t it Ferguson who chillingly said “we didn’t think we could do China policies here, then Italy did it and we realised we could”?

As for Austria, with their history I am pretty disappointed to see a singling-out policy implemented, especially on such flaky grounds and with apparently little scrutiny.

I could *just about* accept vaccine passports for selected discretionary venues *if* someone was able to make a very strong case to say the risk of unvaccinated people falling unwell from such events was likely to have a direct and serious impact on terms of using up scarce NHS capacity. However at this stage there’s no way we should be getting into the territory of spot checks on random people in the street to ascertain their personal health status. To be honest I find that very chilling.

 

[kristiang85]

I could *just about* accept vaccine passports for selected discretionary venues *if* someone was able to make a very strong case to say the risk of unvaccinated people falling unwell from such events was likely to have a direct and serious impact on terms of using up scarce NHS capacity. However at this stage there’s no way we should be getting into the territory of spot checks on random people in the street to ascertain their personal health status. To be honest I find that very chilling.

Indeed. It is so chilling, that's why I honestly don't think it will happen here.

The countries implementing it are already those who still had mask mandates and other nonsense; our government not giving into that lobby shows they will probably abhor this kind of policy.

 

[Eyersey468]

The difficulty is we’ve seen other countries follow the pack. Wasn’t it Ferguson who chillingly said “we didn’t think we could do China policies here, then Italy did it and we realised we could”?

As for Austria, with their history I am pretty disappointed to see a singling-out policy implemented, especially on such flaky grounds and with apparently little scrutiny.

I could *just about* accept vaccine passports for selected discretionary venues *if* someone was able to make a very strong case to say the risk of unvaccinated people falling unwell from such events was likely to have a direct and serious impact on terms of using up scarce NHS capacity. However at this stage there’s no way we should be getting into the territory of spot checks on random people in the street to ascertain their personal health status. To be honest I find that very chilling.

I agree

 

[MikeWM]

I could *just about* accept vaccine passports for selected discretionary venues *if* someone was able to make a very strong case to say the risk of unvaccinated people falling unwell from such events was likely to have a direct and serious impact on terms of using up scarce NHS capacity. However at this stage there’s no way we should be getting into the territory of spot checks on random people in the street to ascertain their personal health status. To be honest I find that very chilling.

Of course that's the key issue with 'vaccine passports' in any form - they change the way of life for *everyone*. Sure, they 'punish' the unvaccinated *more*, but actually they damage the fabric of our society, and inconvenience *everyone*, for no-one's benefit.

 

[bramling]

Of course that's the key issue with 'vaccine passports' in any form - they change the way of life for *everyone*. Sure, they 'punish' the unvaccinated *more*, but actually they damage the fabric of our society, and inconvenience *everyone*, for no-one's benefit.

Indeed. Even from a practical point of view they’re an utter nuisance. It’s been irritating enough going round places over the last 18 months - last year especially - to be greeted with a dirty look accompanied by “have you booked?”.

This way of life may have suited the furlough not-a-care-in-the-world no-ties beauty-spot-a-day basic existence some people have been aspiring to, but it’s a journey we really shouldn’t be going down.

 

[asw22]

Source https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

The 7 day average hospital admissions for week ending 11/11/2020 was 1.69K
The 7 day average for week ending 11/11/2021 was 920

While this is still high, it is lower than 12 months ago when we were in a circuit breaker to save christmas

Also daily cases seem to have been in the 30K to 40K per day range since the start of September and were probably helped by October half term and will probably be helped by Christmas school holidays.

If this trend continues then I doubt there would be much benefit from vaccine passports or Austria type lockdowns, although face masks in the right settings could help.

 

[The Ham]

Vaccines will still be a larger help.

Newscast we saying the other day after 5 months AZ was at 40% protection of infection, whilst Pfizer was at about 60%, with a booster this then rose back to 95+%.

Even without going below the first phase of boosters that's likely to have a large impact (relatively few 5 months ago where getting AZ unless it was their second dose).

 

[DustyBin]

Source https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

The 7 day average hospital admissions for week ending 11/11/2020 was 1.69K
The 7 day average for week ending 11/11/2021 was 920

While this is still high, it is lower than 12 months ago when we were in a circuit breaker to save christmas

Also daily cases seem to have been in the 30K to 40K per day range since the start of September and were probably helped by October half term and will probably be helped by Christmas school holidays.

If this trend continues then I doubt there would be much benefit from vaccine passports or Austria type lockdowns, although face masks in the right settings could help.

I agree with you except when it comes to face masks. We really need to move on from this “seen to be doing something” mentality; such ineffective NPIs come at a cost to individuals and society whilst achieving nothing. It’s fairly clear at this stage that the pancasedemic is being driven by our obsession with testing, a hysterical media and a few individuals and organisations with a vested interest in prolonging the misery for as long as possible. It’s time to move on, enough is enough.

 

[Bantamzen]

Vaccines will still be a larger help.

Newscast we saying the other day after 5 months AZ was at 40% protection of infection, whilst Pfizer was at about 60%, with a booster this then rose back to 95+%.

Even without going below the first phase of boosters that's likely to have a large impact (relatively few 5 months ago where getting AZ unless it was their second dose).

I really wish these reports properly explain that these figures relate to antibody protection, not immune system protection. Its so misleading to a public already badly informed.

 

[DustyBin]

I really wish these reports properly explain that these figures relate to antibody protection, not immune system protection. Its so misleading to a public already badly informed.

It seems we've completely redefined what immunity actually means....

 

[Bantamzen]

It seems we've completely redefined what immunity actually means....

Indeed, I can understand the general public perhaps not really understanding this, but for the experts and government ministers paid to understand this to have also forgotten....? Hmmmmm.....

 

[greyman42]

If this trend continues then I doubt there would be much benefit from vaccine passports or Austria type lockdowns, although face masks in the right settings could help.

What settings?

 

[VauxhallandI]

What settings?

Fantasy settings

 

[ainsworth74]

And in other news, the UK is braced for the worst winter since the end of the Ice Age.....

Yes I was thinking the other day that the threat of lockdowns in the tabloids has become about as predictable as threats of apocolyptic snow storms in the Express. Feels like about every three weeks between about September and May the Express will predict "a snowstorm the likes of which hasn't been seen in our lifetimes!!!!1!!!1!" Well now we have at least one of the tabloids every other week or so predicting something along the lines of "LOCKDOWN NEXT WEEK?! SIGNS POINT TO YES!!!!!"

What a way to make a living

 

[kristiang85]

Yes I was thinking the other day that the threat of lockdowns in the tabloids has become about as predictable as threats of apocolyptic snow storms in the Express. Feels like about every three weeks between about September and May the Express will predict "a snowstorm the likes of which hasn't been seen in our lifetimes!!!!1!!!1!" Well now we have at least one of the tabloids every other week or so predicting something along the lines of "LOCKDOWN NEXT WEEK?! SIGNS POINT TO YES!!!!!"

What a way to make a living

Being an editor of the Express must be easy. Just copy and paste some articles you wrote 3 months / 1 year ago on COVID, immigrants, British weather or Princess Diana and people still seem to read it.

 

[Bantamzen]

Being an editor of the Express must be easy. Just copy and paste some articles you wrote 3 months / 1 year ago on COVID, immigrants, British weather or Princess Diana and people still seem to read it.

To be fair the same is true of The Gau..., erm Guad...., ummm, The Guardian...

 

[DustyBin]

Being an editor of the Express must be easy. Just copy and paste some articles you wrote 3 months / 1 year ago on COVID, immigrants, British weather or Princess Diana and people still seem to read it.

Don't forget war with Russia!

 

[johncrossley]

I'm in the 40-49 age group and I was able to book my booster appointment just now.

 

[nedchester]

A worthwhile read for the anti-vaxxers

ICU is full of the unvaccinated – my patience with them is wearing thin | Anonymous

Most of the resources we are devoting to Covid in hospital are being spent on people who have not had jab, says an NHS consultant

www.theguardian.com

Watching the mix of patients coming in with Covid, it feels to me like hardly anybody has been vaccinated nowadays; of course, this is because the people that have been vaccinated are getting on with their lives at home. If everyone got vaccinated, hospitals would be under much less pressure; this is beyond debate.

Fundamentally though, for me, it comes down to this. I can’t think of a single case offhand of a person who was previously fit and healthy who has ended up needing intensive care after being fully vaccinated. It may not stop you from catching Covid. But it can save your life when you do.