Vaccine Progress, Approval, and Deployment

[Bayum]

Does the 3rd primary dose have to be the same vaccine as the first two, or it it done in the same way as a booster, with Pfizer?

They’ve preferred for the third primary dose to be mRNA because it’s shown a better effect in immunocompromised patients that didn’t respond to AZ or first doses as well. I think they’ve tried to ensure that as many booster doses fr all groups are mRNA because of the better effect against ‘Delta variant’.

 

[DustyBin]

4. The needle phobic (more than you'd imagine)

Yes good shout. There are also (allegedly) people who simply haven’t got round to it which seems incredible but there you go!

 

[Snow1964]

4. The needle phobic (more than you'd imagine)

It’s not as if you need to watch it go in

And of course if they end up in hospital will have lots more needles and some much bigger ones.

 

[danm14]

It’s not as if you need to watch it go in

And of course if they end up in hospital will have lots more needles and some much bigger ones.

People with dental phobias will avoid a routine filling until it becomes a routine extraction, then avoid the routine extraction until they're in casualty with a life threatening bone infection requiring surgery.

Phobias are by definition irrational.

There's a massive difference between not liking or being afraid of needles; and having a phobia of needles.

 

[VauxhallandI]

It’s not as if you need to watch it go in

And of course if they end up in hospital will have lots more needles and some much bigger ones.

Of course it’s that easy I’m sure they will kicking themselves for not thinking of that.

 

[greyman42]

Of course it’s that easy I’m sure they will kicking themselves for not thinking of that.

Well i have seen a number of people on TV who have ended up hospitalised, saying that they regret not taking the vaccine.

 

[DustyBin]

Well i have seen a number of people on TV who have ended up hospitalised, saying that they regret not taking the vaccine.

But had they simply chosen not to take it, which is rather different?

The media are very good at finding the very rare outlying instances of young healthy people suffering serious adverse effects from Covid and getting them in front of the camera….

 

[Bikeman78]

But had they simply chosen not to take it, which is rather different?

The media are very good at finding the very rare outlying instances of young healthy people suffering serious adverse effects from Covid and getting them in front of the camera….

I bet there's a lot more under 40s in hospital or A&E with something other than Covid, e.g people get injured or killed whilst walking, cycling, driving, falling off ladders, using power tools to name but a few. Why aren't they obsessively reporting those? They clog up the NHS just the same and whilst they cannot be vaccinated against, most accidents are preventable to an extent.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

No, the booster. Though I understand (and I stand to be corrected) that a ‘booster’ is a normal dose anyway.

If Pfizer is used then the same dose is given for a third primary dose as for a booster.

If Moderna is used then a third primary dose gets a full dose, but as a booster only half a dose is given. Something about fewer side effects for the booster and it’s just as effective.

I don’t know what they do with AZ if that has to be given instead due to allergies etc.

 

[Ediswan]

I had a Moderna booster yesterday, following original AZ doses. No significant reaction to any. My arm is slightly more sore this time, but the person giving the injection was not quite so delicate as before, so could be that rather than the vaccine.

The local vaccine center has acquired the NHS disease of 'turn up at the appointed time then wait'. On previous occasions, they were a lot slicker. Maybe a side effect of adding in 'no appointment needed' customers.

 

[brad465]

The booster programme has now seen over 30% of over 12s receive a third/booster shot. This might explain how deaths and hospital admissions are still declining, despite reported cases being on an upward trend for over 3 weeks, where the most vulnerable are now further protected from these concerns.

 

[bspahh]

I had a Moderna booster yesterday, following original AZ doses.

The same for me. My arm is a little sore if I press it, but fine if I leave it alone. I'm tired, but its like a mild hangover, rather than flu.

 

[Darandio]

So boosters now available to all adults after three months instead of six. Making it up as they go along.

 

[MikeWM]

So boosters now available to all adults after three months instead of six. Making it up as they go along.

Yeah, well it's only your immune system at stake, let's just do whatever. What could go wrong?

Is there any evidence whatsoever that say 20-somethings in otherwise good health need a 'booster' within 3 months? Or indeed 6 months? Or ever? Or indeed the vaccine in the first place?

It may not be a popular view around here, but as each day goes by I'm more and more convinced I made the correct decision to pass on these vaccines for the time being - at least until they work out some rather basic things like the number of doses required and the interval between them.

 

[bramling]

Yeah, well it's only your immune system at stake, let's just do whatever. What could go wrong?

Is there any evidence whatsoever that say 20-somethings in otherwise good health need a 'booster' within 3 months? Or indeed 6 months? Or ever? Or indeed the vaccine in the first place?

It may not be a popular view around here, but as each day goes by I'm more and more convinced I made the correct decision to pass on these vaccines for the time being - at least until they work out some rather basic things like the number of doses required and the interval between them.

I certainly find it a bit disconcerting that we now seem to be injecting stuff into people in what almost seems to be a state of panic.

If it turns out that the new variant produces less severe outcomes *and* is more transmissible, the vaccine companies are going to be mightily disappointed, as no doubt will be those who never want this to end.

 

[Darandio]

Yeah, well it's only your immune system at stake, let's just do whatever. What could go wrong?

Is there any evidence whatsoever that say 20-somethings in otherwise good health need a 'booster' within 3 months? Or indeed 6 months? Or ever? Or indeed the vaccine in the first place?

It may not be a popular view around here, but as each day goes by I'm more and more convinced I made the correct decision to pass on these vaccines for the time being - at least until they work out some rather basic things like the number of doses required and the interval between them.

They say they still don't know if vaccines are effective against this variant yet are changing the booster program to offer added protection against it. In the same breath they are saying the time between second dose and booster should actually be longer than this. Staggering.

 

[Bikeman78]

They say they still don't know if vaccines are effective against this variant yet are changing the booster program to offer added protection against it. In the same breath they are saying the time between second dose and booster should actually be longer than this. Staggering.

It's almost as if they haven't got a clue what they're doing! Have people already forgotten the petrol panic? This new variant scare is just more media driven nonsense.

 

[RailExplorer]

As each day passes I'm more and more glad I have so far refused even the first dose of the COVID vaccine for several reasons;

1. The efficacy keeps changing.
2. The number of doses keeps changing.
3. The time interval between doses keeps changing.
4. The double dose vaccinated are almost back to being classed as unvaccinated.
5. The only reason I would ever take it is to travel, but with constant threats of red lists, restrictions etc. even that's not worth it.
6. The vaccine wasn't the route to freedom.
7. My personal risk to COVID remains near zero.

This isn't science. This is injecting people with a concoction of drugs due to some unjustified fear.

 

[yorkie]

They say they still don't know if vaccines are effective against this variant yet are changing the booster program to offer added protection against it. In the same breath they are saying the time between second dose and booster should actually be longer than this. Staggering.

Sadly, the messaging is all wrong. You really couldn't make this up.

It certainly does sound like a lengthy gap is better for efficacy but some experts are saying that we only really need two doses but ideally around 6 months apart, though no-one really knows for sure what the optimal gap is and it would be difficult to find out conclusively.

As each day passes I'm more and more glad I have so far refused even the first dose of the COVID vaccine for several reasons;

1. The efficacy keeps changing.
2. The number of doses keeps changing.
3. The time interval between doses keeps changing.
4. The double dose vaccinated are almost back to being classed as unvaccinated.
5. The only reason I would ever take it is to travel, but with constant threats of red lists, restrictions etc. even that's not worth it.
6. The vaccine wasn't the route to freedom.
7. My personal risk to COVID remains near zero.

This isn't science. This is injecting people with a concoction of drugs due to some unjustified fear.

I don't agree with this conclusion, however I can understand how the appalling and inconsistent messaging has resulted in people coming to this conclusion.

I had a chat with an anti vaxxer at work today; she admitted to believing in conspiracies. Although we fundamentally disagree on several issues we were in agreement that the messaging is wrong and mandates of any kind are wrong. Listening to her point of view made me realise just how poor the messaging is; it plays into the hands of people who are against vaccines and it makes vaccine sceptics even more sceptical.

Despite the doom and gloom from the Government and their false claims that the vaccines may not be effective, I am absolutely confident the vaccines will remain effective against this new variant. That's because I listen to experts who actually know what they are talking about, unlike Boris & co.

It's almost as if they haven't got a clue what they're doing! Have people already forgotten the petrol panic? This new variant scare is just more media driven nonsense.

It is indeed.

In fine with the messaging saying it could be 'more transmissible' but the media are deeply irresponsible for suggesting the vaccines may no longer be effective.

The message should be that everyone is going to get exposed to the virus and that vaccines are, and will continue to be, effective at what they are designed to do.

 

[The Ham]

. The vaccine wasn't the route to freedom.

Other than before we had significant numbers of people vaccinated the numbers of cases were high with lots ending up in hospital.

A year ago we had about double the number of people in hospital and were in a significant lockdown, even though the number of daily cases was about 1/3 of the current daily rate (so on a like for like bases on case numbers we should be having something like 48,000 in hospital not 8,000).

Likewise in terms of deaths we're about 1/5th the number last year (again on the case numbers rather than about 100/day we should be around 2,500/day when we're not even seeing that in a 14 day period if the same percentages were doing as last year).

Given just how many cases we are currently seeing life is surprisingly normal (unless you want to make it not normal).

Yes some places are more keen on masks, but generally my experience was (until the weekend) that mask wearing was taken up by fairly few people. Since the government announcement this weekend there's been more mask wearing within shops, although still a reasonable number without.

There's been no need to check in for months and whilst many places still require you to order by app when eating out there's many who prefer that (as there's less need to try and get the attention of the staff).

Work has, mostly, been fairly normal - having been in the office for some time (other than when children are sick and o can then work from home whilst looking after them). Maybe giving each other a bit more of a gap when talking to each other, but nothing too obvious.

Kids groups are back to normal, with everything pretty much as it was before.

I'd suggest that on many fronts it had enabled us to do a lot of things, the noticeable exception is international travel. However having not been abroad for a couple of years before Covid, that's not that noticeable to me, although I can understand that it's quite a big loss to others (especially those with family overseas).

 

[Lampshade]

I have no qualms about having the booster itself, slightly unconvinced about them simply halving the gap since the second dose though. As my second was in August I’ll probably try to stretch it until January.

 

[yorkie]

The vaccine is the route to freedom but the Government and various others refuse to believe in them, so we don't yet have proper freedom.

I'm absolutely furious with the Government's messaging and actions and those who call for it (especially Labour who I see as absolute traitors)

I have no qualms about having the booster itself, slightly unconvinced about them simply halving the gap since the second dose though. As my second was in August I’ll probably try to stretch it until January.

Good idea. Only make it sooner if it gets forced upon you, for e.g. international travel reasons. A longer gap is going to be more effective.

 

[yorksrob]

Halving the gap works out for me as I was hoping to get mine just before Xmas for family reasons (but would have been due just after).

 

[DustyBin]

As each day passes I'm more and more glad I have so far refused even the first dose of the COVID vaccine for several reasons;

1. The efficacy keeps changing.
2. The number of doses keeps changing.
3. The time interval between doses keeps changing.
4. The double dose vaccinated are almost back to being classed as unvaccinated.
5. The only reason I would ever take it is to travel, but with constant threats of red lists, restrictions etc. even that's not worth it.
6. The vaccine wasn't the route to freedom.
7. My personal risk to COVID remains near zero.

This isn't science. This is injecting people with a concoction of drugs due to some unjustified fear.

I can relate to how you (and the other unvaccinated posters) feel. What some people to seem to have forgotten is that for young healthy people the risk from covid is negligible.

I do however also agree with @yorkie re the government’s messaging, it’s been appalling and has done nothing to reassure the vaccine hesitant or even those with straightforward questions. It also doesn’t help that the people telling us to get vaccinated are the same people who want us to wear masks.

In my case I’ve gone from being in no particular hurry to get vaccinated (so you could say slightly hesitant), to resistant as a matter of principle due to feeling coerced, to “not in a million years they’d literally have to force me”. Well done the government and “the science”!

 

[35B]

I can relate to how you (and the other unvaccinated posters) feel. What some people to seem to have forgotten is that for young healthy people the risk from covid is negligible.

I do however also agree with @yorkie re the government’s messaging, it’s been appalling and has done nothing to reassure the vaccine hesitant or even those with straightforward questions. It also doesn’t help that the people telling us to get vaccinated are the same people who want us to wear masks.

In my case I’ve gone from being in no particular hurry to get vaccinated (so you could say slightly hesitant), to resistant as a matter of principle due to feeling coerced, to “not in a million years they’d literally have to force me”. Well done the government and “the science”!

The risk may be negligible, but it is not nil, and with consequences that are disproportionately serious for those unlucky enough to be affected. This article in the Graun illustrates the workings of that asymmetry in one case - when I compare that with the far lower risk of side effects*, the decision to vaccinate (and seek vaccination for my teenage children) becomes instinctive.

* - on that asymmetry, it's worth note that the discussion over vaccine efficacy and dosage regimes is a genuine consequence of the speed at which they have been introduced, and the lack of time in which to observe long term effects. That is very different from the oft expressed concerns over side effects, where vaccination side effects - due to the nature of vaccination itself - manifest quickly following vaccination. I therefore conclude that while the vaccination may not be as effective as initially billed, it is every bit as safe.

 

[Eyersey468]

To be honest I am in no rush to get the booster either, especially now the mask mandate has come back. I simply don't trust anything the government says. It doesn't feel like the vaccines are the route to freedom any more.

 

[DustyBin]

The risk may be negligible, but it is not nil, and with consequences that are disproportionately serious for those unlucky enough to be affected.

Rather like aviation disasters then? And yet counselling is available to those who suffer aerophobia! (Apologies if I sound flippant but I’m sure you understand my point).

This article in the Graun illustrates the workings of that asymmetry in one case - when I compare that with the far lower risk of side effects*, the decision to vaccinate (and seek vaccination for my teenage children) becomes instinctive.

The article clearly seeks to increase the perceived risk and relates to an outlying case. For all the emotive language, the fact remains that the person involved was extremely unfortunate.

I don’t have teenage children but I have a genuine question; what made you disregard the JCVIs conclusion in regard to vaccinating teenagers? As I recall the government justified it on the grounds of psychological benefit (because of course the average teenager is terrified of Covid!) and reduced community transmission (now questionable!).

* - on that asymmetry, it's worth note that the discussion over vaccine efficacy and dosage regimes is a genuine consequence of the speed at which they have been introduced, and the lack of time in which to observe long term effects. That is very different from the oft expressed concerns over side effects, where vaccination side effects - due to the nature of vaccination itself - manifest quickly following vaccination. I therefore conclude that while the vaccination may not be as effective as initially billed, it is every bit as safe.

The risk of side effects is small and isn’t my main concern. In fact it would be rather contradictory to describe the risk from Covid as negligible and then cite safety concerns as a reason not to get vaccinated. I do think however there are question marks over the long term effectiveness (and indeed safety) of the vaccines themselves (to a degree), but more so our mass vaccination strategy. For example, the interaction and relationship between the novel virus, relatively new vaccine technology and the human immune system is extremely complex and not fully understood. Whilst the worst case scenarios seem unlikely to materialise, we do seem to be making it up as we go along and hoping for the best!

 

[jfollows]

My experience, which I don't think is untypical, is that my first and second vaccinations were efficiently handled by my GP, and a local vaccination centre was established at Alderley Park which I didn't use but for which I read good reports.

The booster vaccination, on the other hand, was incompetently and inefficiently handled, in part because the process was delegated to pharmacies, with the closure of the local vaccination centre (albeit that one sort of "local" but significantly less convenient at the Etihad Stadium in Manchester remains) and with my GP trying to catch up with its backlog of appointments for non-Covid reasons. I should add that the booster vaccination itself was efficiently handled by the pharmacy, it was the process of booking the appointment and the fact that it was not as local to me as I'd preferred that was the problem, compounded by the constant changes of direction by government.

The latest changes I generally support, my criticism of the government has mainly been because it's done too little and too late, I accept that this time a potential over-reaction is warranted.

But it's going to put the pressure back on GPs and closed vaccination centres to deliver, the fact that it was done a few months ago means that it's not impossible to deliver again of course. My annual "business as usual" appointment with my GP has been delayed by two months this year, and I'm fortunate in not requiring an urgent appointment, so they're clearly struggling with non-Covid demand anyway.

So do the GPs repeat their processes of the first half of 2021 now? It will be a difficult decision for them.

EDIT Also, I think my general feeling is that it's important to make obtaining the booster vaccination as easy as possible, and I don't think enough focus has been put on this. For me, I got my vaccination despite the difficulty and inconvenience of doing so, and many others will be the same, so it's not for me that I say this. Also, there will be some who simply won't get the booster vaccination, and the process isn't the reason. But there will be a significant minority of people in the middle who will only take it up if it's made easy for them, and currently I don't see this being the case.

 

[RailExplorer]

In addition to my points I made yesterday of my reluctance to get vaccinated, I would really like to know why "natural immunity" isn't even discussed.

I had COVID back in August and the minor symptoms meant that I didn't even know I had COVID until day 8 after catching it. I honestly thought it was the side effects of taking an 8 month old camping, in weather conditions that were hot/cold constantly with an air mattress that deflated every 3 hours. It turns out my whole family caught COVID at the same event.

But the day the daily coercion stops and the science stops changing daily, I'll consider the vaccine. Until then, I've gone from pro vaccine to "not unless I'm forced kicking and screaming". My wife, from a medical family background says the same. Her mum, who's a doctor (in a country that isn't the UK) doesn't support the UK / EU / Western world stance. She's had her jab, but there was no coercion and no push for 3 monthly vaccines - but the difference is, she didn't get pfizer and instead had one of the more traditional style vaccines (Chinese I think).

 

[DustyBin]

In addition to my points I made yesterday of my reluctance to get vaccinated, I would really like to know why "natural immunity" isn't even discussed.

I had COVID back in August and the minor symptoms meant that I didn't even know I had COVID until day 8 after catching it. I honestly thought it was the side effects of taking an 8 month old camping, in weather conditions that were hot/cold constantly with an air mattress that deflated every 3 hours. It turns out my whole family caught COVID at the same event.

But the day the daily coercion stops and the science stops changing daily, I'll consider the vaccine. Until then, I've gone from pro vaccine to "not unless I'm forced kicking and screaming". My wife, from a medical family background says the same. Her mum, who's a doctor (in a country that isn't the UK) doesn't support the UK / EU / Western world stance. She's had her jab, but there was no coercion and no push for 3 monthly vaccines - but the difference is, she didn't get pfizer and instead had one of the more traditional style vaccines (Chinese I think).

Natural immunity denial concerns me greatly and is one of the biggest issues I have with "the science".