Vaccine Progress, Approval, and Deployment

[kristiang85]

It's been reported on the BBC this morning that 16% of Footballers are unvaccinated, to me this is an insult, they act as if COVID19 doesn't exist, jumping all over each other and spitting on the pitch.

Should they be forced to have vaccinations or face instant dismissal?

They are all at minimal risk of COVID 19, and the vaccination rate seems to be above the national average, plus their activities are outdoors, so I personally don't see a problem if that is their personal choice?

 

[jon0844]

It's been reported on the BBC this morning that 16% of Footballers are unvaccinated, to me this is an insult, they act as if COVID19 doesn't exist, jumping all over each other and spitting on the pitch.

Should they be forced to have vaccinations or face instant dismissal?

I think it's probably true that most of them would only have mild symptoms, and when passing it on, their teammates would probably also suffer minor issues. That is unless one has an underlying health condition they weren't aware of. What a great way to find out.

The bigger problem is they're role models and if they won't take the jab then plenty of fans might not do so either - and I'm not sure their level of risk is comparable.

I think in the US the number of athletes refusing the shot are much higher and it has become very political, but in the USA a lot of people are very against the vaccine (but not against people buying extremely expensive treatments from private healthcare firms - cue right wing TV/radio pundits promoting alternatives) simply because the state is giving free vaccinations and that's socialism communism. In the UK, we mostly back the NHS and expect free vaccinations as we pay for it through national insurance.

What's interesting is that I bet these players are given all sorts of (legal) drugs and treatments for all sorts of things, but they don't trust the vaccine? Or they simply think they have a strong immunity and don't need it? Why take the gamble?

 

[Whistler40145]

I think it's probably true that most of them would only have mild symptoms, and when passing it on, their teammates would probably also suffer minor issues. That is unless one has an underlying health condition they weren't aware of. What a great way to find out.

The bigger problem is they're role models and if they won't take the jab then plenty of fans might not do so either - and I'm not sure their level of risk is comparable.

I think in the US the number of athletes refusing the shot are much higher and it has become very political, but in the USA a lot of people are very against the vaccine (but not against people buying extremely expensive treatments from private healthcare firms - cue right wing TV/radio pundits promoting alternatives) simply because the state is giving free vaccinations and that's socialism communism. In the UK, we mostly back the NHS and expect free vaccinations as we pay for it through national insurance.

What's interesting is that I bet these players are given all sorts of (legal) drugs and treatments for all sorts of things, but they don't trust the vaccine? Or they simply think they have a strong immunity and don't need it? Why take the gamble?

Would be very interesting to learn if they're Premier League Footballers and whether they assume it's beneath them to get vaccinated

 

[Dent]

Virologists I listen to think that two doses is all we really need for long term effectiveness against severe symptoms but to get the best effectiveness they should be much further apart (potentially around 6 months) and the booster now is, more than anything else, making up for the gap being too short between 1st & 2nd doses (but it is understandable why the gap was shorter, in order to boost immunity in the shorter term)

If the gap should have been six months, then does that not mean that the booster would only "correct" that if it was given after six months? Boosters are now being given after as little as three months, is that not too short a gap again?

 

[roversfan2001]

Would be very interesting to learn if they're Premier League Footballers and whether they assume it's beneath them to get vaccinated

Ahhh, the RailUK anti-football sentiment is showing through again. So 84% of Premier League players have had at least one dose. Let's see how this compares to men in England as a whole, shall we?

Data from here.

Aged 18-24: 73.1%
Aged 25-29: 74.6%
Aged 30-34: 82.0%
Aged 35-39: 85.5%

So the vaccine take-up rate is actually higher for PL footballers than the national average for their age range.

I will concede that the data is a bit more disappointing for the EFL, with 25% of players not intending to get vaccinated at all (with 59% double-jabbed, and the other 16% either having only had one dose or intending to get vaccinated).

 

[kristiang85]

If you want to see how to do proper, non divisive vaccine messaging, look no further than the Japense Ministry of Health website:

COVID-19 Vaccines

The official Japanese government COVID-19 vaccines webpage provide how to get vaccinations, searching for vaccination sites and vaccine type in Japan.

www.mhlw.go.jp

e.g.

Free of charge to anyone eligible
The costs of vaccination is free for all Japanese citizens and all eligible foreign residents in Japan. The municipality in which you reside will send you a “Vaccination voucher” and a "COVID-19 vaccine notification"*. Vaccines will be supplied gradually, and the eligibility are prioritized based on age and other factors. The vaccine is administered only with the recipient’s consent.

Consent to vaccination
Although we encourage all citizens to receive the COVID-19 vaccination, it is not compulsory or mandatory. Vaccination will be given only with the consent of the person to be vaccinated after the information provided. Please get vaccinated of your own decision, understanding both the effectiveness in preventing infectious diseases and the risk of side effects. No vaccination will be given without consent. Please do not force anyone in your workplace or those who around you to be vaccinated, and do not discriminate against those who have not been vaccinated.

And lo, it has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world.

I definitely attribute this to the soft messaging approach - I think the more we force the issue of vaccination here, the more the vaccine hesitant become entrenched in their views (basically if they don't trust it at the start, they certainly aren't going to be helped with the government forcing them into it by law, guilt or restriction).

Also in Japan vaccination has not become a political topic, like it has in parts of Europe and the US.

I really don't know how we in the UK have fallen into this trap - before this I would have thought we would be better than that - but once this is over there should definitely be some soul searching going on at how we allowed important public health matters to become so toxic.

 

[MikeWM]

If you want to see how to do proper, non divisive vaccine messaging, look no further than the Japense Ministry of Health website:

Yes, that's very good indeed.

If everywhere had done the same, as they ought to have, there would be a lot less to complain about.

 

[35B]

If you want to see how to do proper, non divisive vaccine messaging, look no further than the Japense Ministry of Health website:

COVID-19 Vaccines

The official Japanese government COVID-19 vaccines webpage provide how to get vaccinations, searching for vaccination sites and vaccine type in Japan.

www.mhlw.go.jp

e.g.





And lo, it has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world.

I definitely attribute this to the soft messaging approach - I think the more we force the issue of vaccination here, the more the vaccine hesitant become entrenched in their views (basically if they don't trust it at the start, they certainly aren't going to be helped with the government forcing them into it by law, guilt or restriction).

Also in Japan vaccination has not become a political topic, like it has in parts of Europe and the US.

I really don't know how we in the UK have fallen into this trap - before this I would have thought we would be better than that - but once this is over there should definitely be some soul searching going on at how we allowed important public health matters to become so toxic.

Two thoughts. One, I've heard of Japanese culture putting much more of a premium on social compliance; is that not a factor in the uptake? Two, on the politicisation of vaccination - do the opponents of vaccination not bear some of the responsibility there?

 

[greyman42]

The bigger problem is they're role models and if they won't take the jab then plenty of fans might not do so either

They are not role models to anyone but their own children. They have no obligations to be a role model to anyone else.

 

[kristiang85]

Two thoughts. One, I've heard of Japanese culture putting much more of a premium on social compliance; is that not a factor in the uptake? Two, on the politicisation of vaccination - do the opponents of vaccination not bear some of the responsibility there?

The Japanese are notably vaccine hesitant, based on the past 20 years following MMR and HPV controversies stirred up by the media. So COVID has been a reversal of that, after a slow start.

Also I wasn't apportioning blame to one side re. the politicisation. But again your comment does illustrate that there is now a deep rooted "us" and "them" attitude with vaccinations - sides shouldn't be necessary.

 

[35B]

The Japanese are notably vaccine hesitant, based on the past 20 years following MMR and HPV controversies stirred up by the media. So COVID has been a reversal of that, after a slow start.

Also I wasn't apportioning blame to one side re. the politicisation. But again your comment does illustrate that there is now a deep rooted "us" and "them" attitude with vaccinations - sides shouldn't be necessary.

Thanks for the clarification about Japan - it's somewhere I know very little about.

On the sides re. vaccinations, I'd agree with you - with the very large caveat that the "anti" side have been well organised and vociferous for a long time, and have allied themselves quite closely with the opponents of other public health measures to fight Covid.

 

[The Ham]

Not sure if others have come across this:

Anti-vaxxers block-book vaccine appointments to stopping people getting booster

This could lead to those who desperately need a jab not being able to get one

www.mylondon.news

Anti-vaxxers have been block-booking jabs at Wembley Stadium in order to prevent people from receiving their booster jabs. It is thought that Wembley isn’t the only site where they've been pulling their stunts. Staff at the stadium had high hopes of delivering 10,000 jabs on Sunday via booked appointments and walk-ins.

But some staff reported that people hadn’t turned up and the venue was “really quiet” by mid-morning. It is estimated that by mid-afternoon, 2,500 people had been jabbed at the site.

I can understand not wanting it yourself, but to go to the extent of trying to stop others from getting by using such tactics is a whole other level.

 

[kristiang85]

Not sure if others have come across this:

Anti-vaxxers block-book vaccine appointments to stopping people getting booster

This could lead to those who desperately need a jab not being able to get one

www.mylondon.news

I can understand not wanting it yourself, but to go to the extent of trying to stop others from getting by using such tactics is a whole other level.

That is grim.

 

[Eyersey468]

Not sure if others have come across this:

Anti-vaxxers block-book vaccine appointments to stopping people getting booster

This could lead to those who desperately need a jab not being able to get one

www.mylondon.news

I can understand not wanting it yourself, but to go to the extent of trying to stop others from getting by using such tactics is a whole other level.

I saw that as well, very grim

 

[Bantamzen]

Not sure if others have come across this:

Anti-vaxxers block-book vaccine appointments to stopping people getting booster

This could lead to those who desperately need a jab not being able to get one

www.mylondon.news

I can understand not wanting it yourself, but to go to the extent of trying to stop others from getting by using such tactics is a whole other level.

"Anti-vaxxers blamed for slow day at vaccination centre, without even a shred of proof..."

So basically because they "hoped" to vaccinate 10K but only managed 2.5K, it must be anti-vaxxers. Weak, very weak indeed. If they had said they had 10K bookings but only saw 2.5K, then maybe it would be a bit more believable, but only a bit. Given the rate of boosters around the country, this smells more like an excuse...

 

[Dent]

Not sure if others have come across this:

Anti-vaxxers block-book vaccine appointments to stopping people getting booster

This could lead to those who desperately need a jab not being able to get one

www.mylondon.news

I can understand not wanting it yourself, but to go to the extent of trying to stop others from getting by using such tactics is a whole other level.

How does anyone "block book" on a system which requires an NHS number and will only book one live appointment per NHS number? The story does not add up.

 

[The Ham]

How does anyone "block book" on a system which requires an NHS number and will only book one live appointment per NHS number? The story does not add up.

It would be possible for a group of people to book an appointment (each with their own NHS number) to block out a number of appointments.

If there was a fair amount of availablity (which given that they were targeting 10,000 in a day or would appear to be the case) it could be that a rebooking happens for later in the day a short while before the appointment was due to happen, in doing so it would be possible that one person could block several appointments from being available for booking over the course of the day.

I do suspect that it's been slightly exaggerated, however there's likely to be some truth in it.

 

[Bantamzen]

It would be possible for a group of people to book an appointment (each with their own NHS number) to block out a number of appointments.

If there was a fair amount of availablity (which given that they were targeting 10,000 in a day or would appear to be the case) it could be that a rebooking happens for later in the day a short while before the appointment was due to happen, in doing so it would be possible that one person could block several appointments from being available for booking over the course of the day.

I do suspect that it's been slightly exaggerated, however there's likely to be some truth in it.

Having cancelled and rebooked an appointment for my wife recently that doesn't sound viable. Each booking requires the NHS number, and a rebooking requires the previous one to be cancelled first. And besides, even if it were possible to book more than one slot as you suggest, it would still need a coordinated and very well timed operation by dozens if not hundreds of people to cause that much of a problem.

Given the total lack of evidence, and that the story wanders off elsewhere halfway through I'd say this is stretching the truth a lot to say the least.

 

[The Ham]

Having cancelled and rebooked an appointment for my wife recently that doesn't sound viable. Each booking requires the NHS number, and a rebooking requires the previous one to be cancelled first. And besides, even if it were possible to book more than one slot as you suggest, it would still need a coordinated and very well timed operation by dozens if not hundreds of people to cause that much of a problem.

Given the total lack of evidence, and that the story wanders off elsewhere halfway through I'd say this is stretching the truth a lot to say the least.

I currently have a booking, the system allows me to get to the point of asking if I want an email confirmation without needing me to cancel the previous one.

As I said chances are there's been some impact, but not as high as the article was implying.

 

[Dent]

I currently have a booking, the system allows me to get to the point of asking if I want an email confirmation without needing me to cancel the previous one.

As I said chances are there's been some impact, but not as high as the article was implying.

Even if were possible, it would only be realistically possible to block out a single-digit number of appointments in a day, which out of 10,000 available appointments is insignificant.

 

[MikeWM]

On the sides re. vaccinations, I'd agree with you - with the very large caveat that the "anti" side have been well organised and vociferous for a long time

Perhaps they have, but I can't say I'd noticed, so I'm not convinced they were that noisy.

Other than a passing acquaintance with Wakefield and the MMR stuff - and that was mainly because I was a subscriber to Private Eye at the time - I can't say I'd given any thought to the subject of vaccination *at all* for years until Covid came along, except for trying to get an explanation from my doctor as to why I was on the list for flu vaccines every year (which took them about 10 years to work out!)

 

[Bantamzen]

I currently have a booking, the system allows me to get to the point of asking if I want an email confirmation without needing me to cancel the previous one.

As I said chances are there's been some impact, but not as high as the article was implying.

Hmm, that's not how it worked for me. It wouldn't allow me to book a new one without cancelling the previous one. But either way, even if anti-vaxxers have found a way around this story just blames them without a shred of evidence. Even just a reference to someone checking audit logs would be a million times more compelling than this badly written story. Methinks some hack has been "researching" social media threads and picked up on a claim like this & run with it.

 

[Ted633]

It's also in an area that has a very high rate of COVID. Isn't it possible more people are isolating and therefore can't make there appointment. We know from the hospitality industry how people don't cancel if they can no longer attend!

 

[jon0844]

It's also in an area that has a very high rate of COVID. Isn't it possible more people are isolating and therefore can't make there appointment. We know from the hospitality industry how people don't cancel if they can no longer attend!

If you test positive from a PCR, the NHS should be aware straight away (in my case, my Covid pass via the app was withdrawn until 10 days had elapsed so that worked as designed) and in theory they could automatically cancel any appointment, to make a new one become available for anyone seeking to book now.

In my case, when I tested positive I didn't have my booster jab appointment cancelled and had to do so myself to get a new appointment that was 28 days after first testing positive.

 

[35B]

Perhaps they have, but I can't say I'd noticed, so I'm not convinced they were that noisy.

Other than a passing acquaintance with Wakefield and the MMR stuff - and that was mainly because I was a subscriber to Private Eye at the time - I can't say I'd given any thought to the subject of vaccination *at all* for years until Covid came along, except for trying to get an explanation from my doctor as to why I was on the list for flu vaccines every year (which took them about 10 years to work out!)

Nor had I, but the reality is that a core motivated group have been active and, like any virus, have spread rapidly.

 

[Yew]

If you test positive from a PCR, the NHS should be aware straight away (in my case, my Covid pass via the app was withdrawn until 10 days had elapsed so that worked as designed) and in theory they could automatically cancel any appointment, to make a new one become available for anyone seeking to book now.

In my case, when I tested positive I didn't have my booster jab appointment cancelled and had to do so myself to get a new appointment that was 28 days after first testing positive.

I think you overestimate how joined up those systems are...

 

[jon0844]

I think you overestimate how joined up those systems are...

Well, it was certainly joined up with regards to the 'passport'. And when I got my second jab early (just walked in when that became an option to do so) it did automatically cancel my booking.

In 2021, all of this should be joined up and there's no reason (or excuse) for it not to be.

 

[35B]

Well, it was certainly joined up with regards to the 'passport'. And when I got my second jab early (just walked in when that became an option to do so) it did automatically cancel my booking.

In 2021, all of this should be joined up and there's no reason (or excuse) for it not to be.

Having worked around government IT a few years ago, there are very good practical reasons why it may not be - and why forcing the pace of that join up might be the last thing we'd want.

 

[brad465]

Vulnerable 5-11 year olds are now being recommended a low dose vaccine:

Covid vaccine should be offered to vulnerable five to 11-year-olds

And advisers say boosters should be offered to some older children due to the risk of Omicron.

www.bbc.co.uk

Vulnerable primary school children should be offered a low-dose Covid vaccine, say government vaccine advisers.
Some older children should be offered a booster in response to the Omicron variant, they have said.
A low-dose version of a Covid vaccine for five to 11-year-olds has just been approved for use in the UK after being deemed safe and effective.
But a decision on vaccinating all five to 11-year-olds has not yet been made.
However, the priority in the NHS will remain on giving adults their third or booster dose of a Covid vaccine.
The low-dose vaccine by Pfizer-BioNTech contains one-third of the adult dose and should be given eight weeks apart. More than five million children have been given it in the US alone.
The drugs regulator - the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) - has licensed the vaccine for use.
Dr June Raine, chief executive of the MHRA, said: "Parents and carers can be reassured that no new vaccine for children would have been approved unless the expected standards of safety, quality and effectiveness have been met."
She said the overwhelming majority of side effects were mild, such as a sore arm or a flu-like illness.
The government's vaccine experts, the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, then decided who would get it.
It said it should be limited for now to those who are clinically vulnerable due to conditions such as severe neuro-disability. Around 330,000 children would be eligible.
They also recommended the normal booster dose should be offered to:

• Children aged aged 16 and 17
• Children aged 12 to 15 if they are in an at-risk group or live with someone who is immunosuppressed
• Children aged 12 to 15 who have a severely weakened immune system, who should get four doses.

Prof Wei Shen Lim, from the JCVI said: "Some 5 to 11 year olds have underlying health conditions that put them at higher risk, and we advise these children to be vaccinated in the first instance.
"For children and young people who have completed a primary course of vaccination, a booster dose will provide added protection against the Omicron variant."

 

[Crossover]

I had my booster earlier this week - I got Moderna. It may have made me feel a little bit more tired than usual for the day or so after, but other than that, nearly 48 hours post injection, I have mainly had a sore arm, a little worse than my first Pfizer jab. It has subsided significantly though and don't expect anything worse.

Regarding the earlier mention of the wait time - I was asked to wait in the vaccination centre (a conference room of a nearby sports stadium) for 5 minutes, but not to drive for 15 minutes. In the end, I stayed in the centre for about 8 minutes post vaccination (it wasn't busy), took a slow walk to the car and sat there for another 5 or so.