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Vaccine Progress, Approval, and Deployment

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Snow1964

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Over 1m covid jabs given yesterday in UK

39,955 first
54,085 second
968,655 third

death rate is down on week ago 2.7%
hospitalisations are up 2.3% on week ago
 
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TPO

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Hmm, that's not how it worked for me. It wouldn't allow me to book a new one without cancelling the previous one. But either way, even if anti-vaxxers have found a way around this story just blames them without a shred of evidence. Even just a reference to someone checking audit logs would be a million times more compelling than this badly written story. Methinks some hack has been "researching" social media threads and picked up on a claim like this & run with it.

Indeed. I find the focused demonisation of "antivaxxers" very worrying.

I had the first 2 jabs, but after due consideration I haven't had and won't have the booster.

My reluctance has several reasons, not least of which is that I had significant side-effects after the first jab (effects not mentioned/acknowledged but pretty common in women I found out afterwards). Also I have had COVID, plus I do have an underlying allergy/inflammation issue and am concerned about the possible effect of the viral vector jab. However, I cannot get both sides of the picture as most "non-positive" info about the vaccines has vanished. I have a friend with an inflammatory condition who was very ill after the RNA vaccine (much more so than after his initial 2 AZ)- he was concerned, challenged his doctor and told it was all fine and he should have it and lo and behold the very issues he was concerned about made him very ill. Too one sided, I want to hear both sides before I make a decision.

I also have concerns about the whole reason/need for boosters.......... not only has the whole vaccination programme had moving goalposts ("we will remove restrictions once the vulnerable have been vaccinated" etc) but I am no longer convinced as the message shifts according to convenience it seems. You are told you need a booster to avoid Omicron because the first doses were not effective enough, yet at the same time you are told the booster is magically effective- yet still restrictions are imposed. Those issues conflict, so which one is correct??????

Until I have a good reason for a booster AND there is properly balanced info on risk/benefit- they can stuff it. After all, due to the emergency indemnity, we cannot sue the manufacturers if it goes wrong, so that last strand of protection has been removed.

Then I read Private Eye's regular column on those benefiting from COVID, and think to myself: "qui bono?"

When I then follow the money, I see too much of a trend that the big Pharmas seem to be making the "boosters" the next cash-cow drug- you know, like statins or the anti-acid drugs before them. Only after a lot of push back from big pharma was it finally proven that long-term anti-acid drugs were not required if helicor pyloi infections were dealt with (by a cheap course of antibiotics), and there is well-informed concern about the pointlessness of statins for many of the population (women, men who have not had a heart attack) albeit those concerns are being pushed back in the same way they were with anti-acids.

Now we have the cycle of potentially 6-monthly (or even 3-monthly???) boosters. That is a typical predictable cash-cow product for pharma- and if you look at the financial model of big pharma, those are the things they like. They would far prefer an expensive but limited effectiveness drug given on a regular basis in the rich west than a truly live-saving drug which saves lives in the developing world (just look at the lack of vaccines for third world diseases like TB and malaria, or the dearth of new antibiotics).

And are these really "vaccines" in the usual sense?

Most vaccines are given at a young age (DTP, MMR) and then may be boosted during school or other times (e.g. tetanus). Boosters are required when a disease is not being faced regularly by the immune system so not "practicing" using the defences the vaccine trained it in.

Flu vaccine is different in that with the flu virus mutating constantly, the vaccine has to be re-jigged every year to match the predicted strain of flu. That is why there are annual jabs- it's not about immunity wearing off rather it's about antigenic drift or shift of the virus.

The COVID boosters are different...... the vaccine has not changed (unlike the flu situation) but there suddenly/conveniently seems a very pessimistic view of level of original protection- but not booster- and a focus on antibodies not immune system memory cells.

Qui bono?!

Enough is enough. I had the initial set of 2 jabs (AZ) and no more.

I am not an "anti-vaxer" although no doubt the media would paint me as one. I have just decided that this one smells and remain unconvinced about the need for boosters....... especially when the levels of people in hospital needing oxygen/ventilation for COVID (the key issue) are no higher than in the summer.

Finally- the booster delivery programme is killing off the recovery of GP services and making the backlog of non-COVID illnesses even worse. If a govt (or rather the moneyed interests who lobby them) wanted to soften the public up for a programme of reform of the NHS, they couldn't have picked a better strategy.........

TPO
 

jon0844

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You said you struggled to find any non positive vaccine info but seem to have done pretty well, and adding in conspiracies and that you think they can 'stuff it' certainly would make most people jump to the conclusion you are (or have become) an anti-vaxxer.

You did acknowledge the need and reason for boosters, and for sure the drug companies are making money, but as you can see in the US the alternative is to spend even more money on unproven (for Covid) remedies and treatments. That seems more of a scam to me, but more fitting in with their private healthcare systems and a desire to not allow socialism to give these jabs for free.
 

TPO

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You said you struggled to find any non positive vaccine info but seem to have done pretty well, and adding in conspiracies and that you think they can 'stuff it' certainly would make most people jump to the conclusion you are (or have become) an anti-vaxxer.

You did acknowledge the need and reason for boosters, and for sure the drug companies are making money, but as you can see in the US the alternative is to spend even more money on unproven (for Covid) remedies and treatments. That seems more of a scam to me, but more fitting in with their private healthcare systems and a desire to not allow socialism to give these jabs for free.

I suggest you read what I wrote in full rather than cherry picking bits of it.

I do not acknowledge the necessity for boosters for COVID; rather I pointed out how using boosters in this way for COVID is different to the previous use of booster vaccination which has a clear basis. I also pointed out how the flu vaccine is NOT a booster every year- it's a different vaccine.

There's a lot being one uniquely for COVID- including the definition of a "case." For all other previous diseases this has been based on symptoms; for COVID only it's based on a test which can be highly over-sensitive (e.g. people testing positive on PCR several weeks after recovering from COVID as the test detects small amounts of viral RNA, NOT the actual virus).

If you think that the history of the progress of the effective treatment for stomach ulcers (dealing with helicor pylori causing it rather than taking antiacids for a lifetime) is a conspiracy theory, you need to read your medical history rather better. The doctors in Australia who eventually succeeded against the odds in publishing this study [and it being accepted] resorted to giving themselves the disease then curing it, this is what it took to challenge the "established norm" of lifelong drug treatment for the condition. Similarly, the concerns about statins are being raised by some very experienced clinicians and when the data is analysed for (eg) women the conclusions are different to those for men. Yet that info often does not reach the front line (similarly, the fact that heart attack symptoms are different in women to men is also often not well understood on the front line). The history of medicine is paved with theories that went on far too long before being eventually overturned.

The commercial model for big pharma is also rather well known. I am don't see them as an enemy- rather I understand their motivations in the same way I understand the motivations of a car salesman and hence recognise potential bias in their information. Ben Goldacre has written some very good explanations of all this.

Nor am I advocating "unproven treatments"- that is a conclusion you falsely read into my posting.

What I do advocate is a more sensible and balanced approach and understanding of the COVID risk. Age matters in the risk profile and the existing vaccination programme was very effective in preventing serious illness. The data from South Africa should also be considered in modelling.

What I also advocate is consistency and disclosure of bias/interests (e.g. funding, shareholdings, membership of political parties) on those advising the govt and taking the decisions.

Finally, a focus on boosters is removing the healthcare resource from other important stuff like diabetes check-ups so it's not without cost.

This is not about "belief"- it's not a religion. Labelling people who dissent from a heavily promulgated line as "heretics" using the appropriate term of abuse (whether it be "anti-vaxxers" or "deniers" or similar) is not supporting science and nor is it helpful overall [although I'm sure being classed as "amongst the righteous" makes some folks feel better ;) ].

TPO.
 

Farang

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I've had 2 AZ's and a Moderna booster. One of the side-effects of C19 is tinnitus - ringing in the ears. Having had tinnitus before, I'm VERY keen to avoid a rerun, so I'll take any booster that's offered.
 

david1212

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I've had 2 AZ's and a Moderna booster. One of the side-effects of C19 is tinnitus - ringing in the ears. Having had tinnitus before, I'm VERY keen to avoid a rerun, so I'll take any booster that's offered.

Interesting .... I was not aware of any link between tinnitus and all or any variant of Covid.

I have hearing loss and constant tinnitus. The base line is a ring / whistle at around 800Hz but at time get other sounds in addition e.g. a low drumming like if a diesel generator was nearby.

I had a first AZ soon after eligible in April, a second AZ early July and a Moderna booster 7th December as when booked the 6 month minimum time applied. I was expecting Pfizer as the booster as the site I used was giving Pfizer at most a month earlier.

A while after the first I had a dull pain around the vaccination point. However I think not the vaccine but rather the injection point was too low in my arm. Otherwise the day after I seemed tired but that is all. Overall my decision is that while AZ has blood clotting risks and long term risks are unknown overall still lower than from being seriously ill with Covid and the possibility of some from of long Covid.
 

yorkie

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@jon0844 I will point out that the objections @TPO has for boosters are actually a legitimate concern that some knowledgeable people, including virologists have; there is a school of thought that what is really needed to get good robust immunity is two doses around 6 months apart and that should suffice.

However a very good reason for boosting now is to make up for the fact that that vast majority of people had their doses much closer together than that. It could also be argued that was the right thing to do, at the time, to build immunity quickly. The question regarding whether or not boosters are necessary is therefore a complex one and is probably best considered on an individual basis.

As for an annual vaccine, again I have listened to a very good case stated by virologists that this should not be necessary (except in vulnerable groups) however it depends on various factors; it may be worth issuing a one-off booster next winter but it is unlikely to be required every year at least not in healthy individuals.

But don't take my word for for any of this, check out a podcast which I linked to here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ariant-of-concern.225357/page-81#post-5456264 it's very informative and if anyone is interested in this sort of thing, I would recommend listening to it.
 

El Blanco

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Vulnerable 5-11 year olds are now being recommended a low dose vaccine:


As a parent of a healthy 7 year old, I would not let my child have the vaccine given the risks of COVID impact on them are low and their immune system is still developing.

The front page of the Telegraph today states that the JCVI have concluded that administering 1 million jabs to healthy 5 - 11 year olds would prevent only 2 children requiring intensive care.

The Independent SAGE lot, especially Deepti Gurdasani and Christina Pagel, seem very keen to administer the vaccine to all 5 - 11 year olds so I await their response to the JCVI recommendation with interest.
 

The Ham

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As a parent of a healthy 7 year old, I would not let my child have the vaccine given the risks of COVID impact on them are low and their immune system is still developing.

The front page of the Telegraph today states that the JCVI have concluded that administering 1 million jabs to healthy 5 - 11 year olds would prevent only 2 children requiring intensive care.

The Independent SAGE lot, especially Deepti Gurdasani and Christina Pagel, seem very keen to administer the vaccine to all 5 - 11 year olds so I await their response to the JCVI recommendation with interest.

Conversely, as a parent of a child who ended up in hospital for a week due to rota viruses (normally just a sickness bug) with jaundice I would suggest that there's a lot which can happen short of ICU which will cost the NHS a significant amount of money making it worthwhile to give vaccines. (Rota virus is now routinely vaccinated against in babies for this very reason).

Especially given that in about the last month there's been about 400 under 18 admitted to hospital, whilst many of those will be within the group which can be vaccinated, we do need to start thinking about how to protect ourselves from this as a long term thing rather than it being a case of what we need to do to limit the impact of each wave/new variant.

The other thing to note is that there's starting to be evidence that being double vaccinated and then getting infected with Covid (which is a much reduced illness as a result) gives you a much higher level of protection than just being double vaccinated. As such, and given the dose levels being suggested for children under 11 are much lower than for adults, then it could well be that it becomes a childhood vaccine with a booster later on.

However any such final plan like this is likely to be a few years away. However would make sense given that there's data which shows that almost no one under 18 is getting hospitalised having been vaccinated and almost no one under 40 is dying having been vaccinated.

Therefore if we can get a vaccine program running which gives us childhood protection for life (or at least until quite a bit later in life) then that's likely to be a good thing.
 

Bantamzen

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I suggest you read what I wrote in full rather than cherry picking bits of it.

I do not acknowledge the necessity for boosters for COVID; rather I pointed out how using boosters in this way for COVID is different to the previous use of booster vaccination which has a clear basis. I also pointed out how the flu vaccine is NOT a booster every year- it's a different vaccine.

There's a lot being one uniquely for COVID- including the definition of a "case." For all other previous diseases this has been based on symptoms; for COVID only it's based on a test which can be highly over-sensitive (e.g. people testing positive on PCR several weeks after recovering from COVID as the test detects small amounts of viral RNA, NOT the actual virus).

If you think that the history of the progress of the effective treatment for stomach ulcers (dealing with helicor pylori causing it rather than taking antiacids for a lifetime) is a conspiracy theory, you need to read your medical history rather better. The doctors in Australia who eventually succeeded against the odds in publishing this study [and it being accepted] resorted to giving themselves the disease then curing it, this is what it took to challenge the "established norm" of lifelong drug treatment for the condition. Similarly, the concerns about statins are being raised by some very experienced clinicians and when the data is analysed for (eg) women the conclusions are different to those for men. Yet that info often does not reach the front line (similarly, the fact that heart attack symptoms are different in women to men is also often not well understood on the front line). The history of medicine is paved with theories that went on far too long before being eventually overturned.

The commercial model for big pharma is also rather well known. I am don't see them as an enemy- rather I understand their motivations in the same way I understand the motivations of a car salesman and hence recognise potential bias in their information. Ben Goldacre has written some very good explanations of all this.

Nor am I advocating "unproven treatments"- that is a conclusion you falsely read into my posting.

What I do advocate is a more sensible and balanced approach and understanding of the COVID risk. Age matters in the risk profile and the existing vaccination programme was very effective in preventing serious illness. The data from South Africa should also be considered in modelling.

What I also advocate is consistency and disclosure of bias/interests (e.g. funding, shareholdings, membership of political parties) on those advising the govt and taking the decisions.

Finally, a focus on boosters is removing the healthcare resource from other important stuff like diabetes check-ups so it's not without cost.

This is not about "belief"- it's not a religion. Labelling people who dissent from a heavily promulgated line as "heretics" using the appropriate term of abuse (whether it be "anti-vaxxers" or "deniers" or similar) is not supporting science and nor is it helpful overall [although I'm sure being classed as "amongst the righteous" makes some folks feel better ;) ].

TPO.
Just on the subject of the pharmaceutical companies, a few years ago on a trip to the States I got to watch a bit of commercial TV. It was incredible to see just how many treatments adverts were pushing, and we are not talking just about headaches or stomach ulcers. Practically every known ailment known to mankind had some form of treatment that these companies were compelling viewers to "ask your doctor about". Coming from a country were your doctor is the one recommending treatments, not the other way around, it was a real eye-opener into just how powerful these companies are becoming. And whilst they have done incredible work developing vaccines for covid, we should never lose sight of the fact that they will want us to buy many more, so they will not object to theories that advocate forever boosters when they actually might not be needed.
 

The Ham

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Just on the subject of the pharmaceutical companies, a few years ago on a trip to the States I got to watch a bit of commercial TV. It was incredible to see just how many treatments adverts were pushing, and we are not talking just about headaches or stomach ulcers. Practically every known ailment known to mankind had some form of treatment that these companies were compelling viewers to "ask your doctor about". Coming from a country were your doctor is the one recommending treatments, not the other way around, it was a real eye-opener into just how powerful these companies are becoming. And whilst they have done incredible work developing vaccines for covid, we should never lose sight of the fact that they will want us to buy many more, so they will not object to theories that advocate forever boosters when they actually might not be needed.

Which is where the government and their scientists should have the understanding to push back and only deliver what is actually required.

Of course there's many who would say that there's a quite a bit which could be done better in the USA when it comes to healthcare.
 

kristiang85

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Just on the subject of the pharmaceutical companies, a few years ago on a trip to the States I got to watch a bit of commercial TV. It was incredible to see just how many treatments adverts were pushing, and we are not talking just about headaches or stomach ulcers. Practically every known ailment known to mankind had some form of treatment that these companies were compelling viewers to "ask your doctor about". Coming from a country were your doctor is the one recommending treatments, not the other way around, it was a real eye-opener into just how powerful these companies are becoming. And whilst they have done incredible work developing vaccines for covid, we should never lose sight of the fact that they will want us to buy many more, so they will not object to theories that advocate forever boosters when they actually might not be needed.
I posted this before on the forum, but this 2017 article is quite prescient...


(Unfortunately my phone is having problems copying the text to add it here per forum rules; I'll edit this post later on a pc to include it - currently on a train to Scotland!)
 

Bantamzen

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I posted this before on the forum, but this 2017 article is quite prescient...


(Unfortunately my phone is having problems copying the text to add it here per forum rules; I'll edit this post later on a pc to include it - currently on a train to Scotland!)
That's an interesting read. It's a good job that the virus came along when it did, keeps negative returns at bay for a while longer... ;)
 

Snow1964

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The final vaccination data before Christmas now published
(won’t be any further updates until Monday)

Third / boosters yesterday 32,290,487 (56.1% of 12 and up)


There are 8240 hospital beds with covid patients (marginally up), including 842 needing ventilation. Much lower than in early 2021.

Seems although case numbers are still going up, doesn’t seem to be leading to be leading to NHS pressure nationally (but there might be local pockets of problems, although if average is roughly constant, other hospitals must be easing)
 

TravelDream

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France has announced the wait between the second dose and booster will be reduced from a minimum of 6 months to a minimum of 3 months.

6 months is still pretty common across the EU and is one of the reasons their booster programme has a much lower take-up than the UK's.

France has narrowed the delay for a third booster shot to three months from four in response to the rapid spread of Omicron, but there will be no curfew for New Year’s Eve.
 
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Snow1964

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For those not already aware, it is now possible to see third/booster vaccination percentages on the map on the Government Covid data website.

Rates seem to vary considerably, my area Wiltshire is 63%, but drilling down gives more local rates. Highest I have spotted is Barton on Sea at 81.8% for 3 jabs, almost 5 times that of Stamford Hill North at a pathetic 16.8%

 

backontrack

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For those not already aware, it is now possible to see third/booster vaccination percentages on the map on the Government Covid data website.

Rates seem to vary considerably, my area Wiltshire is 63%, but drilling down gives more local rates. Highest I have spotted is Barton on Sea at 81.8% for 3 jabs, almost 5 times that of Stamford Hill North at a pathetic 16.8%

Makes me wonder if those NHS texts should be exclusively geographically-targeted. Clearly the good burghers of Stamford Hill need booster encouragement that those in Barton on Sea do not.
 

johnnychips

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I would expect the demographics of Barton on Sea to influence the high take up. Having been there, isn’t it full of old people (and I am one myself)? No doubt a Hampshire member can elucidate.
 

NorthOxonian

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I would expect the demographics of Barton on Sea to influence the high take up. Having been there, isn’t it full of old people (and I am one myself)? No doubt a Hampshire member can elucidate.
It's certainly very different to the place with the lowest figure (that I've found). Hyson Green in Nottingham has an extremely young population, with many students and people from ethnic minorities - and just 15.3% have had a booster there.

Stamford Hill North has a fairly young population, but not to the same extent as Hyson Green - but I imagine there the issues may be take up within the Hasidic Jewish community.
 

adc82140

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I would expect the demographics of Barton on Sea to influence the high take up. Having been there, isn’t it full of old people (and I am one myself)? No doubt a Hampshire member can elucidate.
It's fairly elderly, but not in the same league as Bognor or Eastbourne.

My wife has received 3 phone calls from the surgery today about a booster dose. She has explained many times that she has just recovered from Omicron (symptoms: a runny nose) so a booster right now would be inappropriate, but still the calls and texts keep coming. It's borderline harassment now.
 

greyman42

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Stamford Hill North has a fairly young population, but not to the same extent as Hyson Green - but I imagine there the issues may be take up within the Hasidic Jewish community.
Why would the Jewish community not want the booster?
 

yorkie

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Why would the Jewish community not want the booster?
It's not simply 'the Jewish community' but ultra-orthadox Jews who are much more likely to refuse vaccines.

Also the area is likely to have a much younger population compared to areas where vaccine uptake is high.

The comparison made was like comparing chalk and cheese!
 

brad465

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Latest covid vaccine data

First dose now reached 90% (of age 12 and up)
Second dose 82.4%
Third / booster 58.3% 33,527,184
Basically only 10% of those eligible for at least one dose have not taken it up, and an even smaller proportion will be blatant anti-vaxxers believing conspiracy theories/misinformation. Yet they've become a scapegoat in recent weeks for blocking up hospitals (because we must always have someone to blame in a divide and rule society). If society cannot function on the grounds of 10% of a population not conforming to a particular activity, then society is either setup all wrong without sufficient resilience built in (i.e. NHS capacity), and/or we have unrealistic expectations regarding what we want to happen.
 

nanstallon

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For perhaps the first time in my life, I find myself agreeing with Gordon Brown. The vaccine needs to be made more available throughout the world; otherwise we'll get these variants for ever more. I certainly don't want endless panics over the latest variant. There are many who love turning a crisis into a drama, and we can't keep turning the economy on and off like a lightbulb.
 

Farang

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Fascinating story here about how Cuba, despite being an economic basket case, developed its own vaccines and has inoculated 90% of the population.


The organisation which succeeded where the likes of Glaxo failed is the Finlay Institute, which according to Wikipedia "is named after the Cuban doctor Carlos Finlay who was the first to hypothesize the involvement of a mosquito as a vector of yellow fever."
 

brad465

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The vaccine needs to be made more available throughout the world; otherwise we'll get these variants for ever more. I certainly don't want endless panics over the latest variant. There are many who love turning a crisis into a drama, and we can't keep turning the economy on and off like a lightbulb.
With you on the first part, but not on the second regarding "we'll get these variants for ever more". We will always get these variants for evermore, it's what viruses do, and to think we can stop them is an anthropocentric fantasy. They will keep emerging, and we just have to stop panicking each time it will happen. I do agree with the last bit though too.
 

Snow1964

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16 and 17 year olds can now book a booster jab
must be at least 3 months after second jab

I was speaking to a volunteer at my local pharmacy where they have been doing them and volunteers are being told not required often now due to lack of patients. They were accepting walk-ins that hadn’t booked.
 

Djgr

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Fascinating story here about how Cuba, despite being an economic basket case, developed its own vaccines and has inoculated 90% of the population.


The organisation which succeeded where the likes of Glaxo failed is the Finlay Institute, which according to Wikipedia "is named after the Cuban doctor Carlos Finlay who was the first to hypothesize the involvement of a mosquito as a vector of yellow fever."
It should be noted that life expectancy in Cuba exceeds (or is similar to, depending on figures looked at) that of the United States.
 
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