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Various consultations on the May 2022 East Coast Mainline timetable

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IanXC

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Indeed, even better then! But pretty sure it won't happen, as we'll still have the every-two-hours Harrogate extension sitting for 7 to 9 minutes on arrival at Leeds. Unless that uses 10 cars and splits, so that the inbound half from Harrogate replaces the one that departs...

7-9 minutes platform occupation is a totally different ballgame to 57-59 minutes platform occupation!

I'd be inclined to think they won't go for splitting and joining regularly. It's not like Harrogate is limited in what it can accept.

Yep. The evening service is shown as standalone rather than splitting from the Skipton one.

Huddersfield 0550
Dewsbury 0601
Leeds 0616a 0640d
Wakefield 0653
Doncaster 0713
Newark 0738
Kings X 0852

Kings X 1739
Stevenage 1801
Newark 1856
Doncaster 1920
Wakefield 1936
Leeds 1951a 2000d
Dewsbury 2015
Huddersfield 2025

It has to involve splitting and joining though, as 5 cars is the maximum Huddersfield can accept.
 
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williamn

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From what I’ve understood doesn’t seem like good news for Morpeth which has had pretty great growth in passengers in recent years.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The traction has to be an issue - it’s more diesel running under wires and while TPE might utilise the 802s, they wont making as much of electric traction as they could/should. XC and Voyagers are completely the wrong TOC to prioritise here.
While we still have separate TOCs, their access rights will certainly come into it, and XC has had ECML rights far longer than TPE.
They also provide services beyond Edinburgh which allowed VTEC/LNER to withdraw most of their Glasgow services.
De-carbonising XC is another task altogether, and is years away.
 

Class 170101

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Summary for those who can't read the pdf for any reason.

No immediate changes to XC

No changes to Northern local services in North East, still 1tph to Morpeth
XC to serve Northallerton hourly and Northern just be aware Bishop Auckland services swap which half of the hour they are on. Newcastle to Morpeth services no longer head to / from Carlisle (though I accept this might have been split already).

Wrong decision regarding TPE in my opinion. Improving connectivity across the northern cities has been reduced in favour of more London bound services and giving preference to smaller, more polluting Voyagers over larger, cleaner IETs. This is simply too London centric. The Tories - levelling down since 1834.
Definitely London Centric
It is hard to figure this out to be honest,

I see the Aberdeen service is at 1600 for the last one, but the normal pattern is seems to be x03. (Like Stirling)
That will be to do with London Peak rather than anything else. (Also 18:00 and 19:00 for Scotland instead of 18:03 and 19:03) Not convinced LNER should be departing at xx03. Key Intercity services departing on memorable times helps to sell journeys.

The TPE services were really a ORCATs raid - I think that is why they are getting cut back. Manchester - Scotland passengers would always go on the WCML so the main losers are Huddersfield - North of Newcastle passengers. If they made Manchester - Edinburgh via WCML hourly the Northern objections would soon go. Yes the Leeds - Edinburgh cut-back to every 30 minutes may upset a few, but XC seems to be able to cope with this demand as it is. I know everyone doesn't want to go to London. I am sure the XC route Doncaster will be preferred, if they get a good path they may be able to shrink the journey Newcastle - Birmingham journey at last.
Also cut due to the service being either Contingent Rights, so last on the graph, or expiration of Access Rights too I guess.

Leeds to Edinburgh would have been in December 2019 timetable one TPE and one XC so surely will now be reduced from 30 minute to 60 minute frequency with TPE withdrawal? I personally would say a better use of capacity depending on train length for a 30 minute service Leeds to Edinburgh and 30 mins London to Edinburgh rather than the extra Newcastle service proposed.

Disappointed by the slightly earlier finish to services from London on a Saturday evening though.

Less southbound services from Edinburgh to London on Sundays though there's still 3 an hour south of Newcastle to London (similar to pre covid)

Will have a proper look at everything later...

The Saturday night problem will always apply due to perceived demand. East Coast tends to be less busy on Saturday afternoons and Sunday mornings in my experience but busy Saturday morning and Sunday afternoon.

The Sunday timetable looks weak in terms of number of services from Edinburgh to London but LNER have not helped themselves since going for the 4hr 20min journey time removing many intermediate stops between London and Edinburgh so it has overloaded the remaining trains whilst the fast service, in my experience, is quiet south of York.

LNER are withdrawing their Sunderland service citing: "low passenger numbers since it was introduced by Virgin Trains East Coast" and "Sunderland continuing to have good connectivity with LNER services via Northern Trains and the Tyne and Wear Metro, as well as direct London services operated by Grand Central".

Its too late in the evening currently to be of use but looking at the timetable as proposed why not extend 16:33 Kings Cross to Newcastle service onwards when it arrives at Newcastle at 19:34. The morning train the same being too early, perhaps start the 08:27 Newcastle to Kings Cross back at Sunderland rather than at 05:39 as it is today.

And it will be what GBR wants that will dictate the future service patterns before long.
We should all be concerned if they call the shots - GBR is called Network Rail right now. Watch out for Less evening and early morning trains - more time for blocks which seem more important to NR than running trains.


For me personally now having looked I'm not sure this re-write is worth it. Like others have mentioned I don't understand why intermediate journeys between station pairs has been sacrificed, like Newark to Retford for example, travelling via Doncaster won't be an acceptable route for ticket purposes. Also should we be relying on Open Access Operators to provide franchised stops - look what happened when covid struck, some of the suggested alternatives in the consultation would be withdrawn overnight.

Also looking at the current service the London to Lincoln and the London to York have the same stopping pattern between Newark and London but doesn't on this proposed timetable, why?

At the moment I'm asking myself given the timetable which doesn't look all that great why not just extend the existing York service to Middlesbrough and the London to Leeds services get various extensions to Bradford, Skipton, Huddersfield, Harrogate instead?

Reston which seems to be served by a handful of trains a day perhaps this should have gone to TPE after all (proposed oddly enough) as an excuse to run their service between Edinburgh to Newcastle. One also wonders whether electric stock would helped with Newcastle to Morpeth in terms of timetabling or perhaps a local service between Newcastle and Edinburgh.
 

takno

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From what I’ve understood doesn’t seem like good news for Morpeth which has had pretty great growth in passengers in recent years.
Morpeth will also be getting the First Open Access trains, which should be a bit of a bonus
 

JonathanH

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I don't really see how this is better from Kings Cross than the current xx00, xx03, xx06, xx30, xx33 arrangement which provides for fairly even departures to many of the destinations on the line and is good from a flighting perspective, and also provides for a stopper (xx06) between Peterborough and Doncaster.

The two trains at Stevenage in this timetable are close to each other (which admittedly isn't a key market). The trains at Peterborough are close together (which is a more important one).

I appreciate that the current timetable couldn't easily be adapted to get a Newcastle semi-fast between the slower Edinburgh service and the fast Edinburgh service which is presumably what has led the considerations.
 

InOban

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You sound surprised that East Coast is quiet on Saturday afternoons and Sunday mornings. Unless there's a special event, few people want to travel then. A glance at the precovid airline timetables will show that there are hardly any angloscottish flights either at these times.

Which is why the traditional Sunday engineering possessions should start at lunchtime on Saturday and end at lunchtime on Sunday. Far less need for RRBs.
 

YorksLad12

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Is 20 minutes sufficient turnaround time? Will it be resilient enough?
The Newcastle terminaters have around 50 minutes and those at Edinburgh between 30 and 55 minutes.
Instinctively, from when I've been early for a service, yes. Sometimes they call it and let you board 15 minutes before departure rather than the usual 10. It can depend on the time of day, if cleaning can start on the inbound service between Wakefield and Leeds, etc. Pre-Covid I'm talking about, of course. I don't know how long it takes to empty tanks or replenish the bar, or similar.

In fact: is there anyone here who could fill us in on that score?

7-9 minutes platform occupation is a totally different ballgame to 57-59 minutes platform occupation!

I'd be inclined to think they won't go for splitting and joining regularly. It's not like Harrogate is limited in what it can accept.



It has to involve splitting and joining though, as 5 cars is the maximum Huddersfield can accept.
Not sure you can have 9 at Horsforth, but I think we've had a conversation elsewhere that says it doesn't matter. Hudds can only take 5, I did see a 5-car there in March 2020 one evening. Seven-to-nine minutes is enough to offload the Leeds arrivees or en train the Leeds departees and for the driver to swap ends.
 

TheBigD

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Having now all read the consultation documents I'm not sure I agree with all the changes.

It seems perverse that we are going to continue to run 2 x 4 or 5 car voyagers an hour north of York, when we could be making more use of the bimode TPE units.

I would suggest the following...

Cut the existing Plymouth-Edinburgh service back to York.
Speed up the Reading-Newcastle and extend through to Edinburgh.
(The pre Covid xx28 path from Birmingham overtook the preceding xx03 path and reached York/Newcastle earlier. Southbound it was already around 30 minutes quicker)
Use the 5/6 voyagers saved to strengthen XC services.
(or possibly make Leeds-Birmingham every 30 minutes?)
Extend the Liverpool-Newcastle services through to Edinburgh/Glasgow to maintain current links provided by XC.
Use the remaining TPE bimodes on the Newcastle-Machester Airport service.
Sort out the Reston/Berwick/Alnmouth/Morpeth stops between TPE and XC to provide a regular pattern for each.
Could you find a path for a faster Northern service from Middlesborough to Newcastle via the Stillington line?
 

Manutd1999

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I would suggest the following...

Cut the existing Plymouth-Edinburgh service back to York.
Speed up the Reading-Newcastle and extend through to Edinburgh.
^this

Most of the changes seem to make sense, but I don't understand the logic of keeping the 2ph XC north of York versus TPE. Surely it would make more sense to run 2ph clockface (or close to) on the TPE from Newcastle to Leeds/Manchester?

As you suggest, the Reading service would then become a 'fast' service to Scotland.
 

swt_passenger

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But will lose local connections to Alnwick and Berwick.
The main withdrawal from Morpeth is the hourly TPE call, but they have never actually got going. AIUI they would only have provided a token number of calls at Alnmouth or Berwick, either very early or very late, it wasn’t a feature of the normal all day service.

Is it assumed now that TPE will never increase their current much reduced service? It would be a bit of a farce to start a broadly hourly service this December and withdraw it again only 5 months later.
 
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Failed Unit

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i suspect Sunderland is gone as they have no Bi-Mode to resource it at the time.

it would be interesting to see where open access fits. as others have said if it goes at x00 the Lincoln service should get out the way of a non-stop service north. But if the York service was to use the same Path going north a GC or First service running non stop north would need this service to be looped at Retford.
 

irish_rail

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I would suggest the following...

Cut the existing Plymouth-Edinburgh service back to York.
Speed up the Reading-Newcastle and extend through to Edinburgh.
That's really going to help cut down on flights between the South west and Scotland.....
How about speed up the Plymouth to Edinburgh to give the south west a better service to Scotland, got to think of the environment and all that.....
 

James90012

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So we knew this was coming and most of the trade offs I understand and support - but Darlington really is left in the doldrums.

At the same time flights to Heathrow are being reintroduced LNER are proposing to actively worsen the service to London. I note that GC are stated to go to 6tpd and the Middlesbroughs will all help reduce the impact though, but i don't see how you can reduce Darlingtons service in speed and frequency without delivering the other increases to Teesside.

My main concern though is Darlington to Edinburgh. That goes from being 2 9-car LNER trains per hour plus a XC 5-car to, presumably, a single 9-car every other hour and an hourly 5-car XC. That just isn't going to work without a commitment to take on the Avanti 221s to lengthen the XC services - never mind all the other markets they will be expected to pick up.

A 'single till' solution needs to be found, clearly extra rolling stock for XC does not have a good business case otherwise we would of had more HSTs but if all of this is to be delivered with the existing XC fleet I think we're in for a disaster and ultimately people back on the road. Also consider that LNERs on board service is far superior to XC.
 

Watershed

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That's really going to help cut down on flights between the South west and Scotland.....
How about speed up the Plymouth to Edinburgh to give the south west a better service to Scotland, got to think of the environment and all that.....
The train is never going to be a very attractive option timewise between the south west and Scotland. It's currently 8.5 hours from Plymouth to Edinburgh... even cutting half an hour off that time (it would probably be more like 15-20 mins) isn't going to make the train better than flying.

Given that, I think the direct link to Leeds is arguably more important.

And of course there's the issue of the XC timetable being predicated on the current patterns - it's highly unlikely you could simply swap the Reading-Newcastle and Plymouth-Edinburgh around north of Sheffield without a wholesale recast.
 
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InOban

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That's really going to help cut down on flights between the South west and Scotland.....
How about speed up the Plymouth to Edinburgh to give the south west a better service to Scotland, got to think of the environment and all that.....
The best way to speed up journeys from Scotland to the SW would be to run bi-modes via the WCML. (Birmingham is an hour quicker that way ) .Xc provides direct services to Leeds (which could be provided by TPE) Sheffield and Derby, although it will be about as quick to reach Derby via Crewe.
 

IanXC

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On the topic of Darlington, it would be interesting to know whether the effect of the enhancements to that station would result in the time penalty for calling there being reduced such that the call could be added back into the 'stopping Anglo Scot'.
 

InOban

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But will lose local connections to Alnwick and Berwick.
Can I point out that there's a bus every hour between Morpeth and Alnwick? OK it takes an hour but it actually goes to Alnwick town, rather than a station a few miles away from which you would need to get the same bus.
 

YorksLad12

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Just looking at LNER's "PowerPoint Presentation" pdf (the one with the words) and I've spotted something. Can you help?

Page 36, KX to Leeds. Seats per weekday in 2019, 19,000; in 2022, 19,500. Headline journey time reduced to 2h08 from 2h13.
Page 74, Leeds to KX. Seats per weekday in 2019, 18,500; in 2022, 18,000. Headline journey time reduced to 2h11 from 2h14.

The journey time I can understand, because it depends on when you reach the various junctions and crossings. But why are there 500 fewer seats southbound than northbound? Is it because there's fewer trains southbound?

More confusingly: on the Westgate page there's the same 18,500/18,000 split of seats from KX, but there's 19,000 between Wakefield and Leeds in 2019 *and* 2022.
 

Failed Unit

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On the topic of Darlington, it would be interesting to know whether the effect of the enhancements to that station would result in the time penalty for calling there being reduced such that the call could be added back into the 'stopping Anglo Scot'.
I also wonder when Middlesbrough is added to the network, Will Darlington’s passenger numbers drop. Passengers on that route may drive / train to Darlington now.
 

TheBigD

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I also wonder when Middlesbrough is added to the network, Will Darlington’s passenger numbers drop. Passengers on that route may drive / train to Darlington now.

Middlesborough shown as 1 train day 0735 ex Middlesborough/1845 ex Kings Cross. Services also calls at Thornaby.

There are 5* Kings Cross-York services which could be extended if LNER get extra bimodes.
* 0745/0947/1147/1347/1547 ex Kings Cross, 1026/1226/1426/1626/1826 ex York.
 

swt_passenger

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Middlesborough shown as 1 train day 0735 ex Middlesborough/1845 ex Kings Cross. Services also calls at Thornaby.

There are 5* Kings Cross-York services which could be extended if LNER get extra bimodes.
* 0745/0947/1147/1347/1547 ex Kings Cross, 1026/1226/1426/1626/1826 ex York.
They shouldn’t need extra anything, the fleet size (including the small number of Mk4 sets) already allowed for Middlesbrough when it was decided on.
 

williamn

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Can I point out that there's a bus every hour between Morpeth and Alnwick? OK it takes an hour but it actually goes to Alnwick town, rather than a station a few miles away from which you would need to get the same bus.
Versus 13 minutes on the train. Not an inconsiderable difference.
 

Killingworth

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Can I point out that there's a bus every hour between Morpeth and Alnwick? OK it takes an hour but it actually goes to Alnwick town, rather than a station a few miles away from which you would need to get the same bus.
Anyone who has used Alnmouth (or Morpeth) station will know the great majority of fellow rail users come by car, whether to park in the car parks, drop off or by taxi. Some walk or cycle and a few by bus. They come from a wide rural area where car ownership and use is high. Some will already consider the alternatives of using Berwick going towards Edinburgh or Morpeth to go south. I suspect the numbers travelling regularly between Morpeth and Alnmouth are not great, although I'm sure a few will exist.

Given the infrequency of both buses and trains I'm sure users will carry on as now and choose the best combination available at the times they want to travel between the specific start and finish points of their journey. In rural Northumberland that probably means using the car all the way!
 

James90012

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The other question for me is, if this was a truly network-view, why you need LNER and First East Coast to be doing the same thing I.e. the fast Edinburghs, surely looking to share fast paths would be the best use of capacity and therefore free up LNER to reinstate at least some connectivity in the hours FEC runs?
 
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ABB125

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And of course there's the issue of the XC timetable being predicated on the current patterns - it's highly unlikely you could simply swap the Reading-Newcastle and Plymouth-Edinburgh around north of Sheffield without a wholesale recast.
It's probably a lot easier to swap the southern destinations at Birmingham, and keep the paths north thereof the same. Though I fully appreciate your point that it's not really worth doing!
 

Failed Unit

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The other question for me is, if this was a truly network-view, why you need LNER and First East Coast to be doing the same thing I.e. the fast Edinburghs, surely looking to share fast paths would be the best use of capacity and therefore free up LNER to reinstate at least some connectivity in the hours FEC runs?
They don’t. But first east coast is allegedly offering something new that will bring passengers to the network that wouldn’t have previously used rail. If they stop more they are accused of ORCATs raiding which is why GC don’t stop on the mainland.
 

Ianno87

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The other question for me is, if this was a truly network-view, why you need LNER and First East Coast to be doing the same thing I.e. the fast Edinburghs, surely looking to share fast paths would be the best use of capacity and therefore free up LNER to reinstate at least some connectivity in the hours FEC runs?

Some of the stopping patterns and local connectivity is simply the timetable reality of squeezing all these paths into the timetable.

I suspect FEC's paths from May 2022 will improve in journey times terms compared to their initial offering.
 
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