irish_rail
Established Member
Completely agree. In an ideal world the services ex south west would head up the WCML but I guess on todays railway that really would be a step too far sadly.
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Various consultations on the May 2022 East Coast Mainline timetable
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Then passengers from Northern WCML stations lose their second London service, MK, Coventry etc lose their Scotland services, and the capacity of Pendolinos on Birmingham-Scotland goes too.
irish_rail
Established Member
Well this would obviously be something done in future with new stock, so say a 9 car 802 which more than matches a pendolino for seats.
Hs2 eventually covers for loss of London trains from the North, and frankly Milton Keynes losing its Scottish trains is hardly the end of the world if you are opening up the entire South West and south Wales to the North West and Scotland......
The same applies in all rural areas. Unless you're travelling to a major city, you will almost certainly use a car - if you have use of one. If you don't, then the bus is much more accessible than the train. The route I referred to passes through a series of interesting seaside towns which have no railway.
Class 170101
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Not at all having used it myself. Merely pointing out to @TheBigD thats when th work is done and that it is the quiet time for LNER hence the absence of later evening services on Saturdays.
Plymouth to Edinburgh would get more passengers than Reading to Newcastle so I would leave those as is I'm afraid.
As for Middlesbrough to Newcastle via Stillington maybe with a bi-mode but not a DMU I doubt, would need to be something like a Class 350 on the ECML I would say.
YorksLad12
Established Member
This is the point really. May 2022 is still the Current Regime of franchises and open access. Hence separate consultations by LNER, TPE, XC, Northern, GN... And it doesn't really take into account the Manchester end of TPE where there also need to be changes made. If this was for May 2025 we'd be in the GBR era, there would be one consultation and everything should be a bit more joined up(I might be being optimistic here!). We might even no longer have open access operators. We just don't know for certain yet.
tbtc
Veteran Member
My personal preference would be to have the ECML services (north of Peterborough) as follows:
- Most stops: Lincoln/ York services
- Middle stops: Hull/ Newcastle/ West Yorkshire services
- Fewest stops: Scottish services (and probably most of the stops between Newcastle and Edinburgh allocated to the services that terminate at Edinburgh, whereas the Aberdeen/ Inverness services have the fewest)
(i.e. the longer distance services have the fewer stops at the southern end of the route)
this would be similar to other parts of the network (e.g. on the WCML you have the LNW services that have more stops than the Avanti New Street services which have more stops than the Liverpool/ Manchester/ Holyhead services which have more stops than the Glasgow services)
Putting additional stops into the Aberdeen/ Inverness services (at the same time removing some stops from shorter distance services) seems the wrong way round IMHO - or should we be adding Watford/ Milton Keynes/ Rugby/ Stafford services into the WCML Glasgow trains that currently run non-stop south of Warrington?
It's such a waste of resources...
05:17: Leaves Craigentinny (ECS)
06:32 Arrives (ECS) into Dundee
06:42 Starts in service from Dundee
07:55 Arrives into Aberdeen
08:20 Departs Aberdeen
10:54 Arrives into Edinburgh
11:06 Departs Edinburgh (to Plymouth)
.
18:08 Evening service arrives into Edinburgh (ex Plymouth)
18:13 Departs Edinburgh for Aberdeen
20:44 Arrives into Aberdeen
21:35 Departs Aberdeen
00:13 Arrives into Edinburgh
00:21 Departs Edinburgh (ECS)
00:29 Arrives into Craigentinny
...so that's about twelve hours a day just to provide one daily journey between Aberdeen and England - seems a lot of staff time/fuel etc
It feels like something that the local MSP has argued for (since any elected representatives will demand more money is thrown on their neck of the woods) with no understanding of how underwhelming the service pattern would be, or maybe in the expectation that all London trains would somehow stop there - we're going to have to disrupt a few other services or find room in the timetable for some additional paths just to justify it... maybe it won't matter too much to the MSP since she can still claim what a stunning victory it is (and the vast majority of her constituents will take this at face value, since the vast majority of people don't use trains, and people won't want to hear that their swanky new local station is going to be a drain on the rest of the network)
It's the huge problem with XC - any incremental gain just leaves you catching up with the same path at the next station - which means an unattractive wait (albeit it improves overall reliability)
Agreed - as per https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...eeds-be-scrapped-to-increase-capacity.217836/ (where a number of people did seem to want to keep two XC trains per hour between York and Newcastle)
I'm perfectly relaxed about some people flying from Plymouth to Edinburgh - rail is never going to compete on journey times between Plymouth and Edinburgh - it can't be competitive in every market
(whereas the seat occupied by one person travelling over five hundred miles could be used by half a dozen people doing shorter journeys over the kind of durations that heavy rail can be competitive)
ryan125hst
Established Member
I've just picked up on LNER's consulation after seeing a Tweet from David Horne. I've had a very quick look at the proposed Monday to Friday timetable and I'm disappointed from a Retford point of view.
Looking at the service during the day (Off Peak) it's still one train between London and York every two hours, just retimed to be about 30 minutes later than the current times.
Unfortunately, the service has actually ended up being worse than it is now as they have removed the Newark North Gate and Grantham calls. This means that anyone wishing to travel to Newark from Retford, considering they are both in Nottinghamshire and 20 miles apart, and the journey takes around 14 minutes by train, would have to instead travel north to Doncaster, and then change and head south. The total journey would therefore take an hour or more. It takes 26 minutes to drive between the two stations, and a bus journey between the towns takes around 50 minutes.
I understand the pathing issues on this stretch of line but it doesn't seem right to cut the service between the two towns in this way. I have a car, but not everyone can drive and I thought we are supposed to be using public transport more for environmental reasons.
Also, with Northern improving the service to Sheffield, it would have been great to see an improvement to the ECML service as well.
Looking at the service during the day (Off Peak) it's still one train between London and York every two hours, just retimed to be about 30 minutes later than the current times.
Unfortunately, the service has actually ended up being worse than it is now as they have removed the Newark North Gate and Grantham calls. This means that anyone wishing to travel to Newark from Retford, considering they are both in Nottinghamshire and 20 miles apart, and the journey takes around 14 minutes by train, would have to instead travel north to Doncaster, and then change and head south. The total journey would therefore take an hour or more. It takes 26 minutes to drive between the two stations, and a bus journey between the towns takes around 50 minutes.
I understand the pathing issues on this stretch of line but it doesn't seem right to cut the service between the two towns in this way. I have a car, but not everyone can drive and I thought we are supposed to be using public transport more for environmental reasons.
Also, with Northern improving the service to Sheffield, it would have been great to see an improvement to the ECML service as well.
evergreenadam
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Sounds like the extra capacity via Doncaster is needed then. I don’t understand why the Leeds path has disappeared especially if they are going to replace it with an hourly Northern Leeds to Sheffield service.
A bit difficult to fly from Plymouth since its airport closed a few years ago! You have to get to Exeter to fly.
The real market is Bristol which in normal times sustains easyJet several times a day to Scotland. In contrast Birmingham used to have frequent Flybe flights but will in future have only morning and evening EasyJet. The train may be slower but is much more frequent.
The question is what else could be done with the respective units before 1106 and after 1808.
Options would be:
-Just go straight from/to Craigentinny. Arguably a bit of a waste of an expensive trainset just sitting around until so late in the morning
-Provide an extra morning arrival at Edinburgh from the south / evening departure to the south (even if only from Newcastle)
-Aberdeen as at present, which traditionally provides a tactically timed bit of extra capacity into Edinburgh from Aberdeen/Dundee at that time of day (which is more the purpose of the extension than England connectivity)
Killingworth
Established Member
There are no right answers, just compromises that will leave some communities better served than others.The ECML interacts with other congested routes and inherits all their problems, the Castlefield issue in Manchester being but one. We all want our local needs served best.
Crosscountry provide the one fast train an hour between Sheffield and Leeds taking about 40 minutes. It can have anything from 4 to 9 coaches. Northern's half hourly semi fast takes about 20 minutes longer and is 2 coaches. The 4th hourly service is also 2 coaches and complicates matters by sharing platform 17 at Leeds with the semi-fasts and takes even longer. Apparently that restricts ability to run longer trains.
The result is that XC long distance trains have a high turnover of short distance users at both Sheffield and Leeds with strong commuter demand at Wakefield. (There's another strong flow between Leeds and York.)
Perish the thought, but if there was platform capacity at Sheffield and Leeds a fast 2tph shuttle service might run between them in 40 minutes connecting with other routes at each end. XC could then concentrate on it's core across the country with the 20 minute quicker route between Sheffield and York rather than via Leeds. Quicker via Doncaster, but potentially even quicker by cutting out that choke point too! TPE cover Sheffield - Doncaster quite well and Leeds - York.
What this consultation throws out is that lack of platforms and nearby holdiing sidings restrict options as much as paths between stations. A nightmare to resolve. We can't all be happy.
Roll on further reviews for 2023 and beyond by which time post Covid demand can be better judged.
Crosscountry provide the one fast train an hour between Sheffield and Leeds taking about 40 minutes. It can have anything from 4 to 9 coaches. Northern's half hourly semi fast takes about 20 minutes longer and is 2 coaches. The 4th hourly service is also 2 coaches and complicates matters by sharing platform 17 at Leeds with the semi-fasts and takes even longer. Apparently that restricts ability to run longer trains.
The result is that XC long distance trains have a high turnover of short distance users at both Sheffield and Leeds with strong commuter demand at Wakefield. (There's another strong flow between Leeds and York.)
Perish the thought, but if there was platform capacity at Sheffield and Leeds a fast 2tph shuttle service might run between them in 40 minutes connecting with other routes at each end. XC could then concentrate on it's core across the country with the 20 minute quicker route between Sheffield and York rather than via Leeds. Quicker via Doncaster, but potentially even quicker by cutting out that choke point too! TPE cover Sheffield - Doncaster quite well and Leeds - York.
What this consultation throws out is that lack of platforms and nearby holdiing sidings restrict options as much as paths between stations. A nightmare to resolve. We can't all be happy.
Roll on further reviews for 2023 and beyond by which time post Covid demand can be better judged.
Three possible solutions.
1) add a Newark call into Hull Trains services which would immediately restore a reasonable service between Retford, Newark and Grantham.
2) Run a Newark-Sheffield service possibly EMR or Northern calling only at Retford and Worksop. This could be two-hourly to connect with Lincoln services, and could possibly work in tandem with Northern’s Sheffield-Gainsborough Central service.
3) if no suitable path for 2 above, run a RRB express coach from Newark to Retford - this could also serve the two town centres, since both stations are a bit of a route march. Could it also extend to Doncaster, serving the sizeable communities of Bawtry and Rossington?
The problem is though that functionally no-one is doing these journeys. LNER provided a bar chart in their consultation (reproduced below from page 30) which suggests that there are only 13 LNER return journeys per day between Newark and Retford. Compare this to the 1,000s for Newark - London and the hundreds for Retford - London. Obviously there can be an element of "if you build it they will come" and improving the connectivity between Newark and Retford would no doubt stimulate demand. But the choice has to be made. Do you serve (and probably stimulate more demand from) the existing London based market or do you speculative try and increase the market between two small(ish) market towns in Nottinghamshire? I think the answer is, sadly, quite obvious which is the best use of finite resources.
The reality is that connections like this will always end up playing second fiddle. Well, at least until HS2 Phase 2b arrives (if it does...).
Bar chart showing LNER journeys (both directions added together) per weekday station pairs including Retford, Newark, Grantham and Stevenage. Shows that majority of journeys from all four are to/from London whilst journeys between the four are at a considerably lower level. Often probably a couple of people per train if that.
Failed Unit
Established Member
The local journeys have always caused issues for as long as I can remember.
BR used to have London - Leeds stopping Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford (alternate hours) and Doncaster.
GNER mixed things up a little, probably to spread the load. Retford would appear in a service such as the 0650 Glasgow - London, were the service would not stop after Retford until Peterborough. It was very difficult to travel between adjacent station pairs until the timetable we have now was introduced.
However,
Car Parking (off-peak) at Newark is £5
Day return - £13
For a service that is essentially every 2 hours. If you have car you will drive.
If you don't have a car you will probably go to Lincoln / Nottingham (if you live in Newark) or Lincoln / Sheffield (if you live in Retford)
It is a chicken and egg, the service isn't going to entice anyone to use it. Newark - Grantham may do better because it is more frequent, but the A1 isn't really that congested in the area.
Interesting to see Newark - Lincoln on the charts. I wonder if that is combined EMR or LNER only passenger counts. A reasonable number of people join / alight at Newark on the LNERs but I think Newark Castle still gets the majority of traffic. those joining at Northgate it is impossible to tell if they started their journey there or have used it to change from the North.
BR used to have London - Leeds stopping Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford (alternate hours) and Doncaster.
GNER mixed things up a little, probably to spread the load. Retford would appear in a service such as the 0650 Glasgow - London, were the service would not stop after Retford until Peterborough. It was very difficult to travel between adjacent station pairs until the timetable we have now was introduced.
However,
Car Parking (off-peak) at Newark is £5
Day return - £13
For a service that is essentially every 2 hours. If you have car you will drive.
If you don't have a car you will probably go to Lincoln / Nottingham (if you live in Newark) or Lincoln / Sheffield (if you live in Retford)
It is a chicken and egg, the service isn't going to entice anyone to use it. Newark - Grantham may do better because it is more frequent, but the A1 isn't really that congested in the area.
Interesting to see Newark - Lincoln on the charts. I wonder if that is combined EMR or LNER only passenger counts. A reasonable number of people join / alight at Newark on the LNERs but I think Newark Castle still gets the majority of traffic. those joining at Northgate it is impossible to tell if they started their journey there or have used it to change from the North.
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This is precisely the point; the "local" journeys have basically had a regular hourly/two-hourly connections for a decade (May 2011), via the King's Cross-Newark/Lincoln/York service. And demand is still minuscule.
How much longer must the "tail wag the dog" for by designing in for these tiny flows in the timetable, when (in passenger demand terms), far greater prizes lie elsewhere? Can't say that East Coast/VTEC/LNER haven't tried....
swt_passenger
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They aren’t really separate though are they? Coordinated publication all on the same day, and they all include the same core explanation text. There must have been a guiding authority pulling the strings.
If anything, separate consultations makes it easier for Joe Public to pick out which parts are relevant to themselves.
swt_passenger
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Yes, however I think what some of them have done is to still include completely irrelevant National background, eg mentioning the EMR Liverpool - Norwich split in the GN version.
Pacerman99
Member
Has anyone tried making some diagrams for the proposed LNER timetable? I'm completely bamboozled! Must be a lot of interworking. Surely the Leeds services don't have a 19 minute turnaround at Kings Cross; yet any more (49 minutes) and they will take up excessive platform space and leave just one platform for open access services, which doesn't seem like enough?
One good reason is Scotrail haven't offered a first class seat for about a year on their HSTs .The whole first class carriage is turned over to staff. So on going to Aberdeen I have used LNER and XC.
YorksLad12
Established Member
Points taken, but will all the responses end up in the same place or will each TOC be able to say "our customers want us to have more services between York and Edinburgh"? With a single consultation you could weight the responses a bit.
Noticeable as well that LNER and XC have glossy booklets and indicative (and difficult to read) timetables whereas TPE has a pdf of a Word document
swt_passenger
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I think it’s the sort of consultation that doesn’t change much, it’s too late to do anything significant surely?Points taken, but will all the responses end up in the same place or will each TOC be able to say "our customers want us to have more services between York and Edinburgh"? With a single consultation you could weight the responses a bit.
Noticeable as well that LNER and XC have glossy booklets and indicative (and difficult to read) timetables whereas TPE has a pdf of a Word document
They all say so explicitly I believe (using exactly the same wording so I assume this was an agreed line) for instance from the GN consultation:
And then the TPE consultation:
The others all appear to more or less use the same wording. I'm certainly not bothering replying as it's clear that the overarching decisions have been made and the only scope is probably for some small tweaks. For instance should it be this XC or that XC that calls at Reston rather than more major things like whether LNER should call some Edinburgh services at Northallerton again.
D6130
Established Member
I wonder whether the potential ramifications of HM Treasury's forthcoming move from London to Darlington have been taken into account by the timetable planners? If the Department of Health's (or was it Social Security's?) move from London to Leeds more than 30 years ago was anything to go by, it should have a profound effect on both regional commuting patterns and long distance travel volumes - not to mention house prices in the area. There could well be a significant increase in Darlington-London-Darlington travel, as many of the new arrivals will still have family and friends living in London and the South-East.
YorksLad12
Established Member
Yes. I was trying to be more optimistic than previous experence should have let me be!
Wow swingeing cutbacks to my home station (Northallerton). I knew it was overprovisioned, but now is going to drastically underprovisioned? Especially given the popularity of TPE services for travelling to Darlington and Newcastle and the poor provision of other tranpsort in the area this seems like a perverse decision. Relying on LNER is not the answer unless compulsory reservations are scrapped. In fact they seem to be intent on killing the commuting market from Northallerton. This always seems popular and there are always a good number of passengers waiting for NCL services in the morning as well as YRK ones. It seems TPE want to scrap a key part of their business in these parts in return for vanity projects like serving Saltburn, which will mean a lot of fresh air being carried from MBR-SLB.
43074
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Even the flow between Newark and Grantham is only served every two hours and that is the largest of the flows between the stations between Peterborough and Doncaster according to the charts showing the demand (interestingly it seems the flow between Newark and Grantham is marginally bigger than the flows from either station to Peterborough or Doncaster where hourly trains are retained!)
I don't think providing, say, an hourly stopping path is too much to ask? Aside from the obvious benefit of allowing faster journey times to the likes of Leeds/Newcastle and Edinburgh by not having Inverness trains calling at Newark.
Clearly all moot points as the timetable is obviously already at an advanced stage of development, this is merely another justification for decisions already taken dressed up as a consultation.
Obviously it might look that way, but the reasons for serving Saltburn (primarily, improved reliability by extending the turnaround time) are very different to the reasons for no longer serving Edinburgh (being shoved out of the way to make room for more London trains). The latter certainly isn't a matter of choice.
On a whole I think I support the changes. And I'm glad the significant, permanent cuts some people predicted don't seem to have happened, at least in the North. Newcastle - Manchester becoming 1tph I don't think is a huge problem, as there will still be 4tph York - Manchester and 6tph York - Newcastle.
With regards to LNER stopping patterns, the number of trains on the ECML makes the pathing flexibility small. LNER have clearly put a lot of consideration into what destinations are most popular and made the stopping patterns fit best they can.
What I want to see is the DfT coming up with a serious plan to increase capacity on the CrossCountry voyagers routes. And not one that will happen in 5-10 years time or a plan which they will mull over and may or may not implement.
With regards to LNER stopping patterns, the number of trains on the ECML makes the pathing flexibility small. LNER have clearly put a lot of consideration into what destinations are most popular and made the stopping patterns fit best they can.
What I want to see is the DfT coming up with a serious plan to increase capacity on the CrossCountry voyagers routes. And not one that will happen in 5-10 years time or a plan which they will mull over and may or may not implement.
I'm not sure that's quite accurate. Northallerton does gain an hourly CrossCountry service to replace the Airport-Newcastle service and while there is a very small number of stops removed on the Airport-Saltburn there is a slight increase in LNER stops and an extra Grand Central train in each direction. In terms on number of services serving Northallerton doesn't seem to change at all really.
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