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Various consultations on the May 2022 East Coast Mainline timetable

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tbtc

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A bit difficult to fly from Plymouth since its airport closed a few years ago! You have to get to Exeter to fly.
The real market is Bristol which in normal times sustains easyJet several times a day to Scotland. In contrast Birmingham used to have frequent Flybe flights but will in future have only morning and evening EasyJet. The train may be slower but is much more frequent.

I was responding to a point about "speed(ing) up the Plymouth to Edinburgh to give the south west a better service to Scotland" to make rail competitive

The question is what else could be done with the respective units before 1106 and after 1808.

Options would be:
-Just go straight from/to Craigentinny. Arguably a bit of a waste of an expensive trainset just sitting around until so late in the morning
-Provide an extra morning arrival at Edinburgh from the south / evening departure to the south (even if only from Newcastle)
-Aberdeen as at present, which traditionally provides a tactically timed bit of extra capacity into Edinburgh from Aberdeen/Dundee at that time of day (which is more the purpose of the extension than England connectivity)

The current XC timetable is thinned out a bit (compared to pre-Covid), so I can't be sure, but I thought that the northbound services over the border were hourly before elevenish and hourly southbound after sixish - could be wrong - but how did the Aberdeen services fit in to other XC diagrams?

I appreciate that some of these "extensions" related to 1980s Chris Green pinching InterCity stock that was otherwise unutilised - same with the HSTs on the Chieftan IIRC (?)

The problem is though that functionally no-one is doing these journeys. LNER provided a bar chart in their consultation (reproduced below from page 30) which suggests that there are only 13 LNER return journeys per day between Newark and Retford. Compare this to the 1,000s for Newark - London and the hundreds for Retford - London. Obviously there can be an element of "if you build it they will come" and improving the connectivity between Newark and Retford would no doubt stimulate demand. But the choice has to be made. Do you serve (and probably stimulate more demand from) the existing London based market or do you speculative try and increase the market between two small(ish) market towns in Nottinghamshire? I think the answer is, sadly, quite obvious which is the best use of finite resources.

The reality is that connections like this will always end up playing second fiddle. Well, at least until HS2 Phase 2b arrives (if it does...).

View attachment 98149
Bar chart showing LNER journeys (both directions added together) per weekday station pairs including Retford, Newark, Grantham and Stevenage. Shows that majority of journeys from all four are to/from London whilst journeys between the four are at a considerably lower level. Often probably a couple of people per train if that.

Wow, those are low numbers

Interesting that the railway is now being more open/honest about the number of passengers affected by cutbacks - I think there was something similar re the passengers affected by cutbacks on EMT/EMR services from the Midlands to Bedford in the peak

Some PTEs show the average subsidy per passenger to justify cutting bus services - some are rather eye watering - but I'm guessing there are some rail ones that would surprise people!

It would help this discussion if there was a chart, like the one above for Grantham etc, which showed the flows along XC routes. I know, for example that quite a few people use their trains between Edinburgh and Glasgow either because they're heading for trains from GLC, or because XC have cheap advance single tickets, I think. But how many are travelling from Glasgow to Newcastle and beyond? Where are the Edinburgh passengers headed? Otherwise we're just riding our own fantasies.

It'd be fascinating - and might shut up some of the arguments about just how "important" / "useful" it was to have two places hundreds of miles apart linked every hour!

(my own view of XC its hat the vast majority of journeys are under a hundred miles, probably not much more than an hour - but the passenger reservations tend to be disproportionately dominated by people doing the kind of "Markinch - Truro" journeys, which gives the impression that they are more significant than they really are
 
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ivorytoast28

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Suspect an East Linton call would be added into the local service once the station is built.
Another scotland station on a section of line we're constantly told has no extra capacity for local services in Northumberland..
Pegswood has a population of 3300 and Widdrington station 2700 and the line passes straight through the centres of both and both are in commutable distance of newcastle, yet they only get 1 train a day. Meanwhile, Reston with 440 people and east linton with 1000 which are far further from Edinburgh get brand new stations while the line can't even serve the stations it has with any sort of decent service

I know it will never happen but it does look like in this new timetable there would be space for a service that stops at some of these perhaps bi hourly, up to 5 per service maybe and it could be considered Alnmouth and berwick have their services from the fast trains anyway so such a service could prioritise Morpeth/Pegswood/Widdrington/Reston/East Linton/Dunbar.

Anyway, back to reality, the new timetable seems good, hopefully it won't be long until all the xx:47 services are extended through to Middlesbrough. I think the two services to Stevenage being very close together is a good thing as it will help deter commuters and leave space for longer distance travellers. I can imagine some may be frustrated Leeds still doesn't have a faster 2 hrs service but there is only so much capacity.

Will the new first service will fit around the top of the hour as some have suggested and then have to run behind the XC service north of York as that leaves York at xx:36 with the Reading-Newcastle following it closely behind at xx:42. The XC then leaves Newcastle at xx:40 with the northern Morpeth service at xx:43 so it seems a bit tight through Newcastle? And also with the XC and first presumably alternating calls at Morpeth to provide it with an hourly service that leaves the northern service only really serving Cramlington, so it may make more sense for that to run behind the fast from newcastle at xx:17 instead
 

SuperNova

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Does that really matter in the context of bringing all the railway together? TPE is just a delivery company for the railway as a whole and isn't there to 'compete' against other operators. In the future, where it runs is up to the overall guiding force for the railway and whoever can run that service at the lowest cost gets the contract.
Say that to folk at Newcastle depot who may be out of a job. I dare you.
surprised by this, they are a management contract now and their ORCATs raiding is not needed. even without COVID they were heading for a default. i would think they would be happy the pressure is off.
ORCATs is a lazy excuse. There's no such thing anymore given the NRC's in place and the farebox goes to the DfT.
 

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Say that to folk at Newcastle depot who may be out of a job. I dare you.

ORCATs is a lazy excuse. There's no such thing anymore given the NRC's in place and the farebox goes to the DfT.
That is my point to why it is going. The TPE service was a revenue raid and not needed. Now there is no revenue to raid it is gone. I suspect LNER will need more train crew so hopefully if TPE don’t need the staff they just move to LNER.
 

Ianno87

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Leeds seems to have done less well out of this than expected:
-
- lost at least one peak extra northbound (1748 in pre-covid timetable i think, and was there also an additional one between 1830 and 1900?)

Although arguably the peak "extra" is/was more about serving intermediate demand than Leeds itself - by the time the 1748 reaches Leeds the 1803 is right behind it anyway.
 

evergreenadam

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1809 sounds to me like a much better time to leave. It means you can safely stay wherever you are in central London until at least 5, and probably 5.30.
Agreed. If there is only one direct train per evening you need to make sure that people can maximise their time in London during the day and give them time to finish work/shopping etc and get to King’s Cross.
 

MontyP

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The peak Leeds services have always varied the times a little. Leeds does gain two extra late services from London, and 1 later service to London (25 minutes later than now, though still rather earlier than the last York service and a couple of hours earlier than trains in many other directions). There was only 1 extra peak service.

Bradford, on the other hand loses its extra service that was gained last year, supposedly as the first step towards a two-hourly service, which has been put on long-term hold.
I've never really understood the clamour for more services to Bradford. I used the through service to F Sq a couple of times 3-4 years ago and there were only 15 or so passengers on the train by the time it reached Bradford, and that was at peak business travel time. Fair enough to have the token extensions to Bradford, Skipton, Huddersfield etc in marginal time. But to use additional units to provide 2-hourly extensions to Harrogate (and maybe Bradford in the future) seems madness to me. It would be better to use the capacity to put on additional services on the core main line.
 

Deerfold

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I've never really understood the clamour for more services to Bradford. I used the through service to F Sq a couple of times 3-4 years ago and there were only 15 or so passengers on the train by the time it reached Bradford, and that was at peak business travel time. Fair enough to have the token extensions to Bradford, Skipton, Huddersfield etc in marginal time. But to use additional units to provide 2-hourly extensions to Harrogate (and maybe Bradford in the future) seems madness to me. It would be better to use the capacity to put on additional services on the core main line.
Whenever I've used it, it's been busier than that - (I used to commute weekly from London to Keighley) - Shipley was often an easier change than Leeds with usually a couple of dozen getting off there alone. Having trains that don't terminate at Leeds potentially means more platform space there.

The Harrogate extensions form part of the plan for extra services to Harrogate - there will be a Northern service in the path on the alternate hour.

I'm not sure there's the paths to put additional services on the core main line - as we've seen with the additional 1tp2h service to Leeds being put on hold.
 

YorksLad12

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Whenever I've used it, it's been busier than that - (I used to commute weekly from London to Keighley) - Shipley was often an easier change than Leeds with usually a couple of dozen getting off there alone. Having trains that don't terminate at Leeds potentially means more platform space there.

The Harrogate extensions form part of the plan for extra services to Harrogate - there will be a Northern service in the path on the alternate hour.

I'm not sure there's the paths to put additional services on the core main line - as we've seen with the additional 1tp2h service to Leeds being put on hold.
Much like LDHS services beyond Edinburgh being used to provide in-fill services that should be provided by ScotRail, the fourth Leeds-Harrogate service should also be with Northern, especially if that's the only reason for an 800 to be in service. Through traffic from Harrogate to anywhere south of Leeds must be in single figures during the day (that's during the day, not during each daytime service). Harrumph.
 

XC victim

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Sadly it would appear Crosscountry are removing the daily direct services between Leeds - Banbury, Oxford, Reading and Southampton. These services used to be very popular
 

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Much like LDHS services beyond Edinburgh being used to provide in-fill services that should be provided by ScotRail, the fourth Leeds-Harrogate service should also be with Northern, especially if that's the only reason for an 800 to be in service. Through traffic from Harrogate to anywhere south of Leeds must be in single figures during the day (that's during the day, not during each daytime service). Harrumph.
It is a bit of catch 22. If a direct service exists people from London (or even Doncaster) May go to Harrogate. But I guess that is a long time to tie up a resource to find out. It is like the Lincoln’s. Not bad cross Newark numbers. How many would have driven to Newark (LNER gets revenue anyway) or used EMR is more difficult to tell. However it is opening a small Grantham - Lincoln flow which wouldn’t have existed in the past.
 

Ianno87

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Sadly it would appear Crosscountry are removing the daily direct services between Leeds - Banbury, Oxford, Reading and Southampton. These services used to be very popular

As in the one specific train a day that did that? I wonder if there were as many direct passengers on those services as I have fingers. All passengers still have direct journeys except the specific set of people travelling from Leeds travelling to Birmingham International or beyond. Which can't be many using that specific train (and who wouldn't be otherwise happy to change on route)
 

43074

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As in the one specific train a day that did that? I wonder if there were as many direct passengers on those services as I have fingers. All passengers still have direct journeys except the specific set of people travelling from Leeds travelling to Birmingham International or beyond. Which can't be many using that specific train (and who wouldn't be otherwise happy to change on route)
That train was quite well timed out of Leeds, 16:40 if I remember rightly, so it's a shame to lose it if nothing else for the extra peak service to Sheffield (of whom there will be many more passengers than those going to stations between Birmingham and Southampton.)

Perhaps we should just abolish XC because it would be easier for the railway, that is the impression you get reading the forum at times.
 

Ianno87

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That train was quite well timed out of Leeds, 16:40 if I remember rightly, so it's a shame to lose it if nothing else for the extra peak service to Sheffield (of whom there will be many more passengers than those going to stations between Birmingham and Southampton.)

Perhaps we should just abolish XC because it would be easier for the railway, that is the impression you get reading the forum at times.

Perhaps this forum should recognise that specific through trains not fitting into a standard pattern that, whilst providing sexy headline trains, often inhibit the ability to make best use of capacity on a more localised level. In other words, XC aren't just diverting it via Donny for a laugh.
 

43074

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Perhaps this forum should recognise that specific through trains not fitting into a standard pattern that, whilst providing sexy headline trains, often inhibit the ability to make best use of capacity on a more localised level. In other words, XC aren't just diverting it via Donny for a laugh.
Agreed. But elsewhere on here you get ideas like using EMUs between Manchester and Birmingham, abolishing marginal time but popular extensions to Glasgow/Aberdeen/Cornwall/Torbay, the often discussed terminating one or both ECML trains at York or Leeds to free up tiny numbers of units when actually all XC need to solve most or indeed all of their problems is the Avanti 221s when available in 18 months time to run longer trains consistently...

Some PTEs show the average subsidy per passenger to justify cutting bus services - some are rather eye watering - but I'm guessing there are some rail ones that would surprise people!
Although in the case of the small flows between Retford/Newark/Grantham LNER and indeed Hull Trains overall in usual times is profitable, so the cost of carrying those passengers is marginal as they are carried on trains which are commercially justified in their own right because of the London demand (perhaps excluding the Newark/Lincoln stopping paths?)
 
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TheBigD

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Much like LDHS services beyond Edinburgh being used to provide in-fill services that should be provided by ScotRail, the fourth Leeds-Harrogate service should also be with Northern, especially if that's the only reason for an 800 to be in service. Through traffic from Harrogate to anywhere south of Leeds must be in single figures during the day (that's during the day, not during each daytime service). Harrumph.

The extension of XC services to Glasgow was to replace the GNER services and allow the following...

1) Demployment of the 9 coach Mk4 sets to the main ECML services for the enhanced Eureka timetable
2) To continue through Glasgow services to/from Newcastle and York.
3) Following the completion of the XC Voyager refurbishment an addition set was able to be diagramed without impacting the XC core network

I've no idea what the passenger flows are between Glasgow and North East England but as regular 2 hourly direct trains have operated since the mid 1990's suggests that that it is a decent market.

That train was quite well timed out of Leeds, 16:40 if I remember rightly, so it's a shame to lose it if nothing else for the extra peak service to Sheffield (of whom there will be many more passengers than those going to stations between Birmingham and Southampton.)

Perhaps we should just abolish XC because it would be easier for the railway, that is the impression you get reading the forum at times.

The initial timetable proposed for the ECML Eureka timetable had the Reading- Newcastle service operating via Leeds every 2 hours and Doncaster every 2 hours.
Only the 1535 ex Newcastle got changed to 1515 and routed via Leeds.


Perhaps we should just abolish XC because it would be easier for the railway, that is the impression you get reading the forum at times.

I would suggest that at some point the current XC services will need to be reviewed and decisions made about whether it should be a true long distance intercity operation or whether it's basically a series of regional links connected for operation convenience only. The difficult decision of the best use of capacity will need to be made. Probably one for after HS2 comes in to operation.
 
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XC victim

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As in the one specific train a day that did that? I wonder if there were as many direct passengers on those services as I have fingers. All passengers still have direct journeys except the specific set of people travelling from Leeds travelling to Birmingham International or beyond. Which can't be many using that specific train (and who wouldn't be otherwise happy to change on route)
I am not going to get into the old arguments about XC and whether it is a true long distance service or not. But I would point out that it is the long distance travellers who have the most difficultly in “simply changing at Birmingham” given that they usually travelling with luggage, or young children or are themselves older. When you change at Birmingham with XC you run a very real risk of missing your connecting service due to the nature of XC services.

I for one really don’t think it is too much to ask for one service a day between Leeds and Oxford/Reading/Southampton. Even if it is at the expense of one of the many Leeds to Manchester services. I don’t really understand the idea of needing 6 or 7 services between Leeds and Manchester each hour but only one 4 coach voyager between Leeds and Birmingham each hour. A service which has to convey both short distance (i.e. Leeds - Derby/Birmingham) and Long distance travellers (i.e Newcastle to Bristol)

As someone who doesn’t drive the rail network is really my only way of getting around and many journeys which were possible in the past are now either very difficult or not possible.
 

Watershed

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I don’t really understand the idea of needing 6 or 7 services between Leeds and Manchester each hour but only one 4 coach voyager between Leeds and Birmingham each hour. A service which has to convey both short distance (i.e. Leeds - Derby/Birmingham) and Long distance travellers (i.e Newcastle to Bristol)
There were 5 express trains an hour between Leeds and Manchester pre-Covid, but due to the timings there were in effect 4 if you were travelling to/from Victoria and 2 if you were travelling to/from Piccadilly. I'm not counting the Northern services because (virtually) all were overtaken en-route, they were really more for local traffic.

Obviously Leeds to Birmingham is always a busy flow but it is difficult to see how it could be increased given the current constraints on the network. From a demand perspective, arguably one of the Sheffield-London services could be extended to Leeds each hour, but that's a whole other story.
 

Ianno87

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I am not going to get into the old arguments about XC and whether it is a true long distance service or not. But I would point out that it is the long distance travellers who have the most difficultly in “simply changing at Birmingham” given that they usually travelling with luggage, or young children or are themselves older. When you change at Birmingham with XC you run a very real risk of missing your connecting service due to the nature of XC services.

I for one really don’t think it is too much to ask for one service a day between Leeds and Oxford/Reading/Southampton. Even if it is at the expense of one of the many Leeds to Manchester services. I don’t really understand the idea of needing 6 or 7 services between Leeds and Manchester each hour but only one 4 coach voyager between Leeds and Birmingham each hour. A service which has to convey both short distance (i.e. Leeds - Derby/Birmingham) and Long distance travellers (i.e Newcastle to Bristol)

As someone who doesn’t drive the rail network is really my only way of getting around and many journeys which were possible in the past are now either very difficult or not possible.

I get that people don't like changing trains. But do those journeys outweigh the much shorter journeys around Leeds who are the beneficiaries from not having to build the timetable around this XC path?
 

westv

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Has anyone seen any sign of the Grand Central and Hull Trains timetables?

I guess they're not obliged to consult in the same way so maybe we won't see them.
It would still be nice to see any timetable changes they might have in mind.
 

Killingworth

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Obviously Leeds to Birmingham is always a busy flow but it is difficult to see how it could be increased given the current constraints on the network. From a demand perspective, arguably one of the Sheffield-London services could be extended to Leeds each hour, but that's a whole other story.
But a good one, especially if on an electrified MML extended to Leeds - and connected to Doncaster.
 

43055

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For anyone that is interested here is a combined timetable for services north of York using the timetables supplied for 2 hours around lunch/early afternoon. (1200-1400 at York).

Looking at the Cross Country timetable I was expecting to see more of the Reading - Newcastle services being sped up but there is still just a few a day which are faster.
 

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Failed Unit

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I get that people don't like changing trains. But do those journeys outweigh the much shorter journeys around Leeds who are the beneficiaries from not having to build the timetable around this XC path?
Back in the old days you could get a direct train from Birmingham New Street - Market Rasen. I used it frequently. It’s timekeeping wasn’t great normally about 15 mins late. Central trains split this service so you now needed to change at Nottingham. (improved reliability so I was told). the train from Birmingham was still 15 minutes late but now you have missed the connection. You are now very late as you need to get the next train to Lincoln 1 hour later and a taxi.

London - Lincoln? Miss the connection at Newark you are now in a taxi or 1 hour late.

That is the main reason I prefer direct. You are left on the platform too often because of late running trains causing a missed connection. I have missed the 1935 Newark - Cleethorpes more times then I have caught it when travelling on the 1600 Edinburgh- London. (18 mins connection). On occasion we pass each other at the end of the platform.

For anyone that is interested here is a combined timetable for services north of York using the timetables supplied for 2 hours around lunch/early afternoon. (1200-1400 at York).

Looking at the Cross Country timetable I was expecting to see more of the Reading - Newcastle services being sped up but there is still just a few a day which are faster.
Thanks. Now you see it in full glory I wonder why Northallerton is missed from Middlesbrough. Guessing the later starts so the conflict is probably further north. some great connections at York. Some bunching as well.
 
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43055

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Thanks. Now you see it in full glory I wonder why Northallerton is missed from Middlesbrough. Guessing the later starts so the conflict is probably further north. some great connections at York. Some bunching as well.
They actually start at Saltburn at the same time each hour but some leave Middlesbrough 5 mins later than others and then to make up the time before York it skips Northallerton as the fast LNER will be right behind by York.
 

Failed Unit

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They actually start at Saltburn at the same time each hour but some leave Middlesbrough 5 mins later than others and then to make up the time before York it skips Northallerton as the fast LNER will be right behind by York.
I wonder what is stopping them all leaving Middlesbrough at the same time. Time will tell.
 

James90012

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They actually start at Saltburn at the same time each hour but some leave Middlesbrough 5 mins later than others and then to make up the time before York it skips Northallerton as the fast LNER will be right behind by York.
The open access are the unknowns at the moment so it might be the First East Coast or Grand Central paths that push the need for the TPE to skip Northallerton.
 

Class 170101

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For anyone that is interested here is a combined timetable for services north of York using the timetables supplied for 2 hours around lunch/early afternoon. (1200-1400 at York).

Perhaps I missed it but there should be a two hourly Kings Cross to York as well.
 

Watershed

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I wonder what is stopping them all leaving Middlesbrough at the same time. Time will tell.
I would imagine something to do with Nunthorpe/Whitby trains, or particular freight paths.
 

tbtc

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I've never really understood the clamour for more services to Bradford. I used the through service to F Sq a couple of times 3-4 years ago and there were only 15 or so passengers on the train by the time it reached Bradford, and that was at peak business travel time. Fair enough to have the token extensions to Bradford, Skipton, Huddersfield etc in marginal time. But to use additional units to provide 2-hourly extensions to Harrogate (and maybe Bradford in the future) seems madness to me. It would be better to use the capacity to put on additional services on the core main line.

I think the demand is more from Bradford's politicians than actual train users.

I appreciate why you wouldn't want most of your rail service to be a case of "change at Leeds for long distance services", just like it must irk some Rotherham people to have to change at Sheffield for most long distance services and Sunderland people to have to change at Newcastle for most long distance services.

But... I don't know that such services are always necessary - it's sometimes more about civic pride

It is a bit of catch 22. If a direct service exists people from London (or even Doncaster) May go to Harrogate. But I guess that is a long time to tie up a resource to find out. It is like the Lincoln’s. Not bad cross Newark numbers. How many would have driven to Newark (LNER gets revenue anyway) or used EMR is more difficult to tell. However it is opening a small Grantham - Lincoln flow which wouldn’t have existed in the past.

That's one of the unspoken issues with these kind of services/ extensions/ re-openings - e.g. if there are a hundred people on the proposed LNER services from Cleethorpes/ Grimsby, are these people who'd not have used the train (but would have previously driven)/ people who'd not have made the journey at all/ people who'd have used local trains to get as far as the ECML and changed there/ people who'd have driven to the ECML to board a train there... so figures can look good but if the additional revenue is only the marginal difference between a Grimsby - London fare and a Doncaster - London fare then it's not as big a gain

Although in the case of the small flows between Retford/Newark/Grantham LNER and indeed Hull Trains overall in usual times is profitable, so the cost of carrying those passengers is marginal as they are carried on trains which are commercially justified in their own right because of the London demand (perhaps excluding the Newark/Lincoln stopping paths?)

Agreed in theory, but the problem with the new timetables is that the need for fast long distance services mean that there's not much time to do two stops in a particular area - i.e. some only have time to make one stop between Peterborough and Doncaster (because they'd be caught up by the next train - but if many trains make one stop in that section then they aren't going to catch each other up)... same has applied for some time between Newcastle and Edinburgh - so Morpeth/ Alnmouth/ Berwick/ Dunbar all have a reasonable enough service to Edinburgh/ Newcastle (and London) but there aren't a lot of opportunities to go between two of Morpeth/ Alnmouth/ Berwick/ Dunbar

If you can serve the "Retford to Newark" market or the "Dunbar to Berwick" market with a long distance service that stops at both then that's great, but you're then potentially inconveniencing long distance passengers for the sake of the "n" people travelling between Retford and Newark/ Dunbar and Berwick... tricky balance

If all of the ECML services were London - Edinburgh then you could have some that made several stops south of York (e.g. pick four from Stevenage/ Peterborough/ Grantham/ Newark/ Retford/ Doncaster) and then only stopped at Newcastle on the way to Edinburgh and some that ran non-stop to York and made several stops north of there (e.g. pick four from Northallerton/ Thirsk/ Darlington/ Durham/ Morpeth/ Alnmouth/ Berwick/ Dunbar - plus Newcastle), so the two would have a similar duration. But most of the Stevenage/ Peterborough/ Grantham/ Newark/ Retford stops are going to be on the shorter distance services (and the Scottish trains running fairly fast south of York)

I for one really don’t think it is too much to ask for one service a day between Leeds and Oxford/Reading/Southampton

How many services a day were there from Southampton/ Reading/ Oxford to Leeds though?

(I know that one southbound service from Newcastle to the Thames Valley was diverted away from Doncaster to serve Leeds instead, but that was more about giving a 16:40ish departure towards Sheffield - in between the two busy services at around 16:10/ 17:10)

For anyone that is interested here is a combined timetable for services north of York using the timetables supplied for 2 hours around lunch/early afternoon. (1200-1400 at York).

Looking at the Cross Country timetable I was expecting to see more of the Reading - Newcastle services being sped up but there is still just a few a day which are faster.

That's very interesting, thanks

So York has six trains to Newcastle in an hour within thirty one minutes, then a twenty nine minute gap for the next one.

xx:05 (LNER: London - Scotland)
xx:18 (LNER: London - Scotland)
xx:22 (TPE Liverpool - Newcastle)
xx:26 (XC: Southampton - Newcastle)
xx:30 (LNER: London - Newcastle)
xx:36 (XC: Plymouth - Scotland)

...some of those services are going to get a lot busier than others at York - the xx:05 from Kings Cross is going to get significantly more passengers than the ones around the half hour mark.

I know it's pretty hard to get lots of long distance services from different parts of the country to all be well co-ordinated (a balanced ten minute service would be great, but not realistic) - however it'd be nice if the timetable meant that York - Newcastle saw a Newcastle terminator running shortly before each Scottish service (so that the shorter distance passengers loaded onto the trains terminating on Tyneside, keeping the Scottish trains emptier for the longer distance passengers)... instead, we'll probably see lots of shorter distance passengers using the London - Aberdeen train because there's been nothing for around half an hour before it.

And, to repeat myself, that's two XC services running within less than fifteen minutes of each other, since the time penalty for going via Leeds is so much - yet there seems no end to the practice of XC running around ten Voyagers north of Leeds during the daytime... grr!
 
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