Vehicle discussion. The SUV vs standard types of car.

[corfield]

Finance companies will in most cases give a discount on the selling price in the form of a deposit contribution, effectively a marketing trick as if you pay the finance for the agreed length of the term (as 99% of people do), you'll still pay more in interest than the value of the discount, if you buy cash you won't get this discount.

For this reason if you want buy a brand new car with cash, the cheapest way to do so is, rather counter intuitively, to take out the finance and then immediately clear it, if you do so within 14 days you will be charged no interest or fees. If you're feeling generous and would like the salesman to get his commission, do so after 3 months instead and accept you'll pay a small proportion of the interest.

Encountered that with window company. The price you negotiate is based on making max overpayments. If you dont the cost of the windows tripled. Immediately you sign it they are “well you could ease off on payments and get a new bathroom fitted?”. A massive scam really and you do need some discipline to see it off.

 

[Bobdogs]

When I bought mine as a private person they were shocked. When I declined finance and just bought it they were gobsmacked.

It was weird being on the receiving end of as I wondered what I was doing wrong!

Dealers want you to have finance as, along with extended warranties, they receive large commissions on them. When I worked for MFI, extended warranties were nearly as important as actual sales.

 

[gg1]

Dealers want you to have finance as, along with extended warranties, they receive large commissions on them. When I worked for MFI, extended warranties were nearly as important as actual sales.

I was once told by someone who worked in a car dealership that dealers barely make any profit on the cars themselves, the real money is in finance and all the extras as you say.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was once told by someone who worked in a car dealership that dealers barely make any profit on the cars themselves, the real money is in finance and all the extras as you say.

Wouldn't surprise me, not dissimilar to the way garages make barely any profit on fuel, it's the stuff they flog you in the shop that they make money on. Which is why it's only generally supermarkets that do pay at the pump.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I was once told by someone who worked in a car dealership that dealers barely make any profit on the cars themselves, the real money is in finance and all the extras as you say.

It's the extras that really make the cash- the worthless GAP insurance, the ScotchGuard, the service plans. I've had dealers offer me £400 extra on my part-ex to buy a £300 GAP policy, which shows what their commission must be like.

Finance now is more about locking people into buying a new car every 3-4 years, because of the way PCPs are structured.

 

[underbank]

I was once told by someone who worked in a car dealership that dealers barely make any profit on the cars themselves, the real money is in finance and all the extras as you say.

That isn't the case at all. Car dealerships make their money from registration and other bonuses paid by the manufacturer. I've been the accountant for several franchised dealers over the years. They are given targets for registrations on a monthly, quarterly and yearly basis - works something like £50 for each car up to 10, then £100 per car if you go over 10, £200 per car if you go over 20 etc. - the £200 is on every car, not just numbers 10 to 20, so registering an extra car to get over a threshold could be worth thousands! There are also extra bonuses for registering unpopular variations to shift stock languishing in compounds - maybe as high as £1000 per car for an unpopular colour or configuration. A good sales manager will be well on top of this - they register cars as demonstrators to meet their registration targets - that's why demos are often unpopular colours.

 

[DerekC]

Speaking as an Aerodynamicist you seem confused.

What has velocity got to do with Car A and Car B being driven the same?
What has powerplant/regenerative braking got to do with the fact all vehicles do or could have the same system?


The drag equation is:

D = 1/2 x density x wetted area x CD x V^2

Since V isn’t changing (both vehicles being driven the same) it is irrelevant, as is density.

For drag coefficient (including form and skin friction), and a quick google as to numbers (apologies but in haste), suggests 0.3 for cars and 0.35 for SUVs.

Wetted area, in this case frontal cross section is apparently about 3m^2 for a SUV vs 2.3m^2 for a large saloon.

So comparing gives you 0.7 for a car and 1.05 for an SUV.

For context cars vary from CDs of 0.2 for a and Areas below 2.0m. I picked larger ones as these seem the logical comparison to SUVs but this shows cars themselves range from an indicative force of 0.4 to 0.7, (c.75% increase). SUVs compared to the larger cars are a c.40% increase.

I remain to be convinced this is significant when all the real world factors are included as for all the noise, I recall a car aerodynamicist telling me their job was to work out and try and improve the marketing/designers shape - rather than produce something aerodynamic and that they only mentioned if a PR angle was required - aerodynamics being not the driving part of efficiency.

The reality is, despite having a hatchback car, I do love the high up seating of SUVs, mainly for the view over all the road clutter and surroundings (not so much over other vehicles). I also drove slower, I assume due to the sense of cornering forces.

I am glad that as an aerodynamicist you agree with me that SUVs do have considerably higher drag. The point about regenerative braking is that it helps reduce the increased fuel consumption associated with SUV weight because it allows a proportion of the energy used to accelerate the car to be recovered when the brakes are used.

You would get an even better view from a truck tractor unit.

 

[FQTV]

That isn't the case at all. Car dealerships make their money from registration and other bonuses paid by the manufacturer. I've been the accountant for several franchised dealers over the years. They are given targets for registrations on a monthly, quarterly and yearly basis - works something like £50 for each car up to 10, then £100 per car if you go over 10, £200 per car if you go over 20 etc. - the £200 is on every car, not just numbers 10 to 20, so registering an extra car to get over a threshold could be worth thousands! There are also extra bonuses for registering unpopular variations to shift stock languishing in compounds - maybe as high as £1000 per car for an unpopular colour or configuration. A good sales manager will be well on top of this - they register cars as demonstrators to meet their registration targets - that's why demos are often unpopular colours.

This is correct for new car dealerships, and it’s likely that it contributed to @corfield getting this deal:

Well that depends. I actually went in to buy a 2nd hand of 1-2 years, but the offer they made me on a new was so cheap (37% off list) that it was cheaper to get that. At that point the 2015 model was coming but not in full production, their fleet/company buyers were waiting that (which was delayed iirc) and they were keen to keep sales/factory occupied.

I actually paid less for the top end Mondeo than a colleague paid for a brand new fiesta the same month! Even 2 years later the resale price was still what I bought it for!

A luck confluence of factors but seemed to work for me. They were mostly amazed I wasn’t buying it on finance.

It’s not all that uncommon for particular customers to get a particularly good deal a couple of times a month, as their sale is the one that triggers the next level of ‘bonnet money’ bonus, which does indeed apply across all the sales thus far in the month, as well as the subsequent ones.

It’s also not that uncommon for these customers to be cash customers, as they can be quicker to process to guarantee the trigger, rather than risking finance declines etc.

 

[corfield]

I am glad that as an aerodynamicist you agree with me that SUVs do have considerably higher drag. The point about regenerative braking is that it helps reduce the increased fuel consumption associated with SUV weight because it allows a proportion of the energy used to accelerate the car to be recovered when the brakes are used.

You would get an even better view from a truck tractor unit.

That’s the point - it isn’t “considerably” higher - as posts of fuel efficiencies demonstrate, especially after all the other factors start to normalise out

And an even better view from a skyscraper on wheels. Good luck managing to take all that in and benefit from it at speed...

The point that an increase in height makes a huge difference. Going even higher, like so many things in life, brings gains but they progressively become more
marginal. There is clear feedback that SUV ride height is felt to be a massive benefit vs a car - noting it is about the same height humans rode at for millennia before we suddenly started going faster than ever before...

The surroundings in terms of walls, hedges, people and so on, being the constant here.

 

[vikingsmb]

No they are ridiculous, everyone who previously got a Focus or something, is now buying a huge great big Kuga or Qashqai. Which are significantly heavier, which means that they use more fuel and produce more emissions.

People don't buy them to be practical, they'd buy an estate otherwise. It's all about showing off, and they buy one to join the ridiculous band wagon.

I fully agree, I own a vw passat estate 170tdi 57 plate with towbar, which suits my needs brilliantly btw she uses shell fuelsave derv nothing else + she loves it, she's great for towing ribs etc, plus its long as well so ideal for moving long bits of equipment like oars etc ,
alot of people buy these SUV's not for practical reasons plus alot of them dont even have towbars, so they just buying them so to look good and show off, and also alot of people cant drive the stupid things and they will be probably be useless offroad, I will stick with my estate thanks, plus alot of cars now are raised up now why???, just so someone can look good infront of their peers, sorry for the rant but people who buy 4x4s who dont need them are just annoying. if you need a big car to move stuff get a estate, if you need to tow heavy loads then get a 4x4 which is what they are supposed to be used for, not prancing about on the school run or going for coffee in.

 

[OneOffDave]

I wanted an estate the last couple if time I changed my car but the current trend seems to be to drop the roofline and have a sloping rear window rather than the more vertical ones you'd get 8-10 years ago. If you look as the difference between an Astra or Focus estate from 2010 to now you can see the change in the shape of the load area. The trend seems to be towards sports tourers rather than 'proper' estate cars. I could get my handcycle in one of the older estates but I've had to go for an SUV now to fit it in

 

[Nym]

Skoda are keeping them pretty square.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Skoda are keeping them pretty square.

Same with WV. Unfortunately, Land Rover are going down this bulbous front look and it's quite marmite on me. Becoming more Chelsea than Tractor.

 

[DerekC]

We had quite a problem a while ago - trying to find a car that my 6ft 4in, 95 year old, rather inflexible father in law could actually get into. Did a lot of data collection in terms of the difference between floor/door sill height and top of door opening height. In the end we bought a Golf SV because it knocked spots off the SUVs and crossovers - it has a car height floor with a higher roof, rather than being an ordinary car on stilts. I wasn't that keen really, but after nearly five years I think it's great. It has lots of space, it's Golf-economical and Golf-reliable and it's nice to drive. No more thought of SUVs for me!!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The largest SUV I have ever driven was in the USA no surprise. It was a Ford Excursion/ massive and I mean massive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The largest SUV I have ever driven was in the USA no surprise. It was a Ford Excursion/ massive and I mean massive.

Really, most UK SUVs aren't SUVs, they are small to medium sized MPVs (people carriers) with a bodykit.

 

[Domh245]

Unfortunately, Land Rover are going down this bulbous front look and it's quite marmite on me

Whilst McGovern does enjoy a relatively rounded vehicle, it's in no small part because they've got emissions and pedestrian safety targets to meet, and building bricks doesn't help with that

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Really, most UK SUVs aren't SUVs, they are small to medium sized MPVs (people carriers) with a bodykit.

Useful though they are I have to practice what I preach. So when I move back to the UK I plan to have a small car probably an electric one and use public transport.

 

[Meerkat]

People doing in the school run in SUVs should be forced to park further away. They can’t see the kids, and the kids can’t see round them when crossing the road.
They are also pretty selfish on the safety issue - the driver may be safer, but not the person you just hit with all that extra mass....

 

[OneOffDave]

People doing in the school run in SUVs should be forced to park further away. They can’t see the kids, and the kids can’t see round them when crossing the road.
They are also pretty selfish on the safety issue - the driver may be safer, but not the person you just hit with all that extra mass....

This is where School Streets really help. Creating a safer zone around schools during start and finish times without as many cars.

 

[Tetchytyke]

They are also pretty selfish on the safety issue - the driver may be safer, but not the person you just hit with all that extra mass....

Being hit by a car is going to chafe a bit regardless of the size of the vehicle. A Ford Focus' kerb weight is 1300kg, a Qashqai's is 1400kg, the difference is very little.

 

[Meerkat]

Being hit by a car is going to chafe a bit regardless of the size of the vehicle. A Ford Focus' kerb weight is 1300kg, a Qashqai's is 1400kg, the difference is very little.

I was thinking of car to car crashes. A responsible person driving a hatchback is going to suffer more from the big heavy SUV hitting them higher up than the lighter Focus at a lower height.

 

[bramling]

I was thinking of car to car crashes. A responsible person driving a hatchback is going to suffer more from the big heavy SUV hitting them higher up than the lighter Focus at a lower height.

Another issue is the space they take up when parking. Round here SUVs essentially take up 1.5 times the parking space as a normal car, especially as many of their drivers don’t seem particularly adept at manoeuvring them.

 

[Meerkat]

Another issue is the space they take up when parking. Round here SUVs essentially take up 1.5 times the parking space as a normal car, especially as many of their drivers don’t seem particularly adept at manoeuvring them.

And because of the off road image (justified or not) the drivers are even more willing to crash them up and down kerbs onto the pavement......

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was thinking of car to car crashes. A responsible person driving a hatchback is going to suffer more from the big heavy SUV hitting them higher up than the lighter Focus at a lower height.

As noted, most SUVs are not "big and heavy". Don't conflate Range Rovers, pickups and the American stuff (the only example of which you really get in the UK is the Nissan Pathfinder) with the mainstream stuff. They're literally just MPVs with a bodykit.

If you're also opposed to MPVs, fair enough, but these have many practical uses compared with traditional estates, not least for older people who are less mobile. My parents (early 70s) presently have a Vauxhall Mokka but previously had a Citroen C3 Picasso. The former is technically an SUV, the latter an MPV. But they're basically the same thing other than in styling.

 

[Meerkat]

As noted, most SUVs are not "big and heavy". Don't conflate Range Rovers, pickups and the American stuff (the only example of which you really get in the UK is the Nissan Pathfinder) with the mainstream stuff. They're literally just MPVs with a bodykit.

If you're also opposed to MPVs, fair enough, but these have many practical uses compared with traditional estates, not least for older people who are less mobile. My parents (early 70s) presently have a Vauxhall Mokka but previously had a Citroen C3 Picasso. The former is technically an SUV, the latter an MPV. But they're basically the same thing other than in styling.

They are bigger and heavier though aren’t they?
I’m looking at the X5s big Volvos etc that drop the kids off round here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are bigger and heavier though aren’t they?

Than MPVs? No, not really. There's very little difference between my Ford Kuga and say a C-Max (I think that's what the Focus based MPV is now, isn't it?). The difference is just body shape, really. And it does (actually does, not some random quoted figure) 50 to the gallon, which is comparable with a car-shaped car.

I’m looking at the X5s big Volvos etc that drop the kids off round here.

I'll give you those, plus some of the BMWs, to add to Range Rovers. But they're not in the majority (unless I suppose you live in a very posh area).

I suppose it's valid to have an issue with genuine "Chelsea tractors" but not with what is basically a vertically stretched Ford Focus or Vauxhall Astra with a bodykit.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I do love the text of car adverts: you pay xyz a month
At the end of the leasing period the vehicle does not belong to you
You may make a payment of abc and keep the vehicle, or put it as payment on a new vehicle, or hand back the keys and walk home

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do love the text of car adverts: you pay xyz a month
At the end of the leasing period the vehicle does not belong to you
You may make a payment of abc and keep the vehicle, or put it as payment on a new vehicle, or hand back the keys and walk home

I wouldn't touch one of those schemes with a bargepole. I have yet to find a situation where an unsecured personal loan didn't offer me a better deal. When the dealer starts blabbing "oh, we might be able to match it", I put it on the table and they go "ah, no chance". Every time

And unlike people on PCPs, when the loan is paid off, I can have a couple of years with a reliable car with no payments due, and then when it's time to change I've got value left in it to put towards the next one.

 

[hst43102]

I don't like the current SUV trend, but I can completely understand why some people would want to buy a "soft-roader" such as a Mokka or Qashqai, which are just MPVs with added plastic trim.

I do, however, have a problem with all the huge luxury SUVs that seem to be more and more common. BMW X5/6/7s, Audi Q7/8, Range Rovers, etc. The majority of these in my area seem to be more of a status symbol than anything, and they take up far too much space in car parks. I really don't want to be in a crash with one of these land boats, either!