Vehicle discussion. The SUV vs standard types of car.

[ABB125]

I wouldn't touch one of those schemes with a bargepole. I have yet to find a situation where an unsecured personal loan didn't offer me a better deal. When the dealer starts blabbing "oh, we might be able to match it", I put it on the table and they go "ah, no chance". Every time

And unlike people on PCPs, when the loan is paid off, I can have a couple of years with a reliable car with no payments due, and then when it's time to change I've got value left in it to put towards the next one.

Similarly, my dad has (for approaching two years now!) been considering options for a new car. He currently has a 2011 Skoda Superb estate diesel, which is a brilliant car but could do with replacing soon (currently around 140,000 miles, I think it was around 60,000 when he bought it in 2015). It was originally his own car, but a few years ago he did something to turn it into a company car instead (probably because some expensive maintenance was due!).
The current plan is to buy a new Skoda Superb estate hybrid (even more space to bung stuff in than his current one, can run on electric between home and work but still do a day trip to (say) Glasgow for business on petrol, most importantly tax benefits as a company car) through work. However, he's now decided that he'll buy it (assuming he ever gets around to it!) using the Boris Business Bounceback loan scheme, for a variety of reasons. PCP no thanks!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I wouldn't touch one of those schemes with a bargepole. I have yet to find a situation where an unsecured personal loan didn't offer me a better deal.

The advantage of a PCP is that your monthly payments don't have to cover the full loan, because of that balloon payment. I wouldn't use a PCP on a used car but my Qashqai is on a PCP deal. It works for now, although having a next door neighbour who was a manager for a car dealership helps

I was thinking of car to car crashes. A responsible person driving a hatchback is going to suffer more from the big heavy SUV hitting them higher up than the lighter Focus at a lower height.

100kg is neither here nor there really.

As for the effects of a crash, that depends on design. Behind the front bumper on my Qashqai there is a lot of empty space, the engine is quite low down and quite far back in the engine bay.

SUVs serve a purpose. We have two cars, a 1.3 petrol Qashqai and a Fiesta with the 125PS 1L petrol EcoBoost engine. The Fiesta is much more fun to drive hard and fast on the Mountain Road, definitely. But the Qashqai is just really relaxing to drive, the higher body means I don't have to bend to strap my toddler in, my 81yo MIL finds it easier to get in the Qashqai and being higher up gives better vision. As for economy, there's about 5mpg difference between the two cars.

 

[SeanG]

It's the extras that really make the cash- the worthless GAP insurance, the ScotchGuard, the service plans. I've had dealers offer me £400 extra on my part-ex to buy a £300 GAP policy, which shows what their commission must be like.

I recently had similar, got 200 quid off my car if I paid for the 200 quid paint protection. So it was effectively free to me but must have made some profit for the dealer

 

[Bald Rick]

They are bigger and heavier though aren’t they?

I was admittedly surprised to find that the mid size SUV I own weighs less than the estate car it is replacing.

 

[E27007]

It is in essence the car makers teling buyers we should be driving SUVs or needlessly high performance cars, in the same manner of the car makers telling us to buy diesels and not petrol-hybrids, a great deal to do with the car makers profits and not a great deal to do with the real needs of the motor car buyer / consumer.
It is easier for the salesman to sign you up for a physically large mock-SUV for £25.000 than for the physically smaller Honda Jazz hatchback at £20,000, although the Jazz has typically more interior passenger and luggage space than the bigger road footprint of the mock-SUV

 

[ABB125]

Apparently another reason for larger SUVs becoming more prevalent is EU regulation surrounding car-person impacts (ie: a larger front area (higher bonnet) will reduce the force imparted upon the person) which encourages larger vehicles.

 

[edwin_m]

Apparently another reason for larger SUVs becoming more prevalent is EU regulation surrounding car-person impacts (ie: a larger front area (higher bonnet) will reduce the force imparted upon the person) which encourages larger vehicles.

I'm not sure that's true, when transit and active transport blogs from the US are blaming the rise in larger SUVs for the significant increase in pedestrian fatalities. Typically, in a collision that is slow enough to be potentially survivable, a "traditional" car design will take someone's legs out from under them but a higher front will impact on more vital organs. It's also more likely to make a child just in front completely invisible to the driver. This is obviously from the States where SUVs are that much bigger and more aggressive and pickup trucks are even more so - one of said blogs was warning the UK to stick with European vehicle standards instead of accepting US ones as part of a trade deal. But may still be true to some extent with European standards.

 

[ABB125]

I'm not sure that's true, when transit and active transport blogs from the US are blaming the rise in larger SUVs for the significant increase in pedestrian fatalities. Typically, in a collision that is slow enough to be potentially survivable, a "traditional" car design will take someone's legs out from under them but a higher front will impact on more vital organs. It's also more likely to make a child just in front completely invisible to the driver. This is obviously from the States where SUVs are that much bigger and more aggressive and pickup trucks are even more so - one of said blogs was warning the UK to stick with European vehicle standards instead of accepting US ones as part of a trade deal. But may still be true to some extent with European standards.

I've not researched it myself, it's just what I was told. I suspect there may be some truth in it, but I also agree with what you say.

 

[edwin_m]

I've not researched it myself, it's just what I was told. I suspect there may be some truth in it, but I also agree with what you say.

A couple of links to support my previous post:

ANALYSIS: Growing SUV Carnage Shows Need for Tougher Policies - Streetsblog New York City

Rising crash injuries and basically flat traffic deaths point to the shortcomings of Vision Zero. And data from Crashmapper shows the dangers of SUVs.

nyc.streetsblog.org

“The popularity of SUVs and light trucks are contributing to the increase in roadway fatalities in New York City and nationally,” Department of Transportation Commissioner Polly Trottenberg told reporters in December. “If you’re behind the wheel of one of those vehicles … you need to take extra caution. It has a lot more weight…poor visibility, it takes you longer to brake and it is harder to see around turns. Drivers of those vehicles need to drive very carefully to compensate.”

American SUVs are Too Dangerous for UK Roads, UK Safety Experts Say — Streetsblog USA

American SUVs kill so many people on U.S. roads that other countries don't want them anywhere near their own roads.

usa.streetsblog.org

As part of the U.K.’s Brexit transition, a Parliamentary committee is reportedly putting pressure on Prime Minister Boris Johnson to exclude U.S. automakers from import agreements if they cannot modify vehicle designs to meet European safety standards for crashes involving pedestrians, cyclists and children.

 

[ABB125]

A couple of links to support my previous post:

ANALYSIS: Growing SUV Carnage Shows Need for Tougher Policies - Streetsblog New York City

Rising crash injuries and basically flat traffic deaths point to the shortcomings of Vision Zero. And data from Crashmapper shows the dangers of SUVs.

nyc.streetsblog.org

American SUVs are Too Dangerous for UK Roads, UK Safety Experts Say — Streetsblog USA

American SUVs kill so many people on U.S. roads that other countries don't want them anywhere near their own roads.

usa.streetsblog.org

Thanks, I'll have a read.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though what constitutes an SUV in the US and in the UK are two very different things.

 

[edwin_m]

Though what constitutes an SUV in the US and in the UK are two very different things.

Yes, as pointed out in my posts and links. I'm not aware of any European figures on fatality rates but they should be less difference because the European standards consider pedestrian safety and the Americans don't.

 

[LOL The Irony]

A couple of links to support my previous post:

ANALYSIS: Growing SUV Carnage Shows Need for Tougher Policies - Streetsblog New York City

Rising crash injuries and basically flat traffic deaths point to the shortcomings of Vision Zero. And data from Crashmapper shows the dangers of SUVs.

nyc.streetsblog.org

American SUVs are Too Dangerous for UK Roads, UK Safety Experts Say — Streetsblog USA

American SUVs kill so many people on U.S. roads that other countries don't want them anywhere near their own roads.

usa.streetsblog.org

As the top comment on the first blog shows, the evidence is warped. SUV's have become more & more popular, so they're more likely to be involved in accidents. You need to look at the accidents per 1000 or whatever vehicles of the type to get the true figures.

 

[edwin_m]

As the top comment on the first blog shows, the evidence is warped. SUV's have become more & more popular, so they're more likely to be involved in accidents. You need to look at the accidents per 1000 or whatever vehicles of the type to get the true figures.

That probably wasn't the best of the many postings available on this subject. London Reconnections has just linked a better one that links on to further information:

We need to talk about SUVs

Americans buy SUVs because they seem safer. But they’re more likely to kill people who aren’t in cars.

www.curbed.com

In May, a study by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety that examined federal crash data concluded that “fatal single-vehicle crashes involving SUVs increased 81 percent, more than any other type of vehicle,” between 2009 and 2016. Although cars and SUVs seemed to hit people at the same rate, when SUVs hit people they were more likely to die.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'd be interested to know what the figures are in Europe, because there's such a vast difference between US-style SUVs, Australian-style Utes and EU-style SUVs.

I guess it also depends where you draw the line on what is and what is not an SUV. Looking at Nissan's range as an example, there's huge differences between the Juke and the Qashqai, which are car-derived vehicles, and the Navarra which really isn't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think in the UK we'd call the Navarra a pick-up, which is understood to be very different from an SUV.

The only US style SUV that has been available on the UK market (but no longer is) is the Nissan Pathfinder (which is basically a 7 seat "boxed in" Navarra). I suppose a Land Rover Defender is sort of in a similar bracket, but even the other Land Rover vehicles aren't, though they aren't quite as "tame" as the likes of the Ford Kuga which, good though it is, is just a vertically stretched Focus Estate[1] with a bodykit and isn't really an SUV in the US sense at all.

[1] Anyone noticed that Ford basically makes one car, but just makes it in different lengths, widths, heights and number of seats?

 

[LOL The Irony]

The only US style SUV that has been available on the UK market (but no longer is) is the Nissan Pathfinder

LWB Range Rover?

 

[Bletchleyite]

LWB Range Rover?

There isn't a LWB Range Rover, there is only one size. (Range Rover Sport is a totally different car).

It gets close, I'd accept, but it's not a US style SUV.

 

[LOL The Irony]

There isn't a LWB Range Rover, there is only one size.

Uh, there is

 

[Bletchleyite]

They must have introduced a SWB one, then, as the one pictured is what I'd call a normal (100") Range Rover!

Edit: ah, that's the 100" pictured, there's now a 120" - that's (relatively) new and is getting close to a US style SUV:

Range Rover LWB first drive | Autocar

Bigger new long-wheelbase Range Rover is as nice to be driven in as it is to drive

www.autocar.co.uk

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think in the UK we'd call the Navarra a pick-up, which is understood to be very different from an SUV.

Most of the road accident literature I've seen from the US seems to lump SUVs and pickups in one category. Even in the US there's a huge difference between the top-selling pickup (Ford F-series) and the top-selling SUV (Toyota Rav4).

 

[hst43102]

Most of the road accident literature I've seen from the US seems to lump SUVs and pickups in one category. Even in the US there's a huge difference between the top-selling pickup (Ford F-series) and the top-selling SUV (Toyota Rav4).

Even pickups are totally different over here and in the US. The Nissan Navara, Toyota Hilux, Ford Ranger, VW Amarok that are sold here are dwarfed by regular-size American trucks like the F-150, Nissan Titan and Chevrolet Silverado. Then you get the BIG American pickups - the Ford Super Duty, GMC Sierra HD etc.

 

[LOL The Irony]

the Ford Super Duty, GMC Sierra HD etc.

They're on the fringe of what I'd call a pick up. Wait until you see the F6&750 series, they're the size of a Mercedes Atego and some people daily drive them.

 

[ABB125]

They're on the fringe of what I'd call a pick up. Wait until you see the F6&750 series, they're the size of a Mercedes Atego and some people daily drive them.

All I can say is... "I want one!"
EDIT: fuel economy appears to be in the region of 7-8mpg (not sure if that's US or UK gallons), so I'll only be it if someone else is paying for the fuel!

 

[bspahh]

I'd be interested to know what the figures are in Europe, because there's such a vast difference between US-style SUVs, Australian-style Utes and EU-style SUVs.

I guess it also depends where you draw the line on what is and what is not an SUV. Looking at Nissan's range as an example, there's huge differences between the Juke and the Qashqai, which are car-derived vehicles, and the Navarra which really isn't.

This is the provisional report on UK road casualties for 2019.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/904698/rrcgb-provisional-results-2019.pdf

The trend in recent years has been for a gradual reduction in the number of deaths and serious injuries, and a bigger decrease in the number of overall casualties.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/oct/07/a-deadly-problem-should-we-ban-suvs-from-our-cities has a quote from Robin Lovelace that the police don't record the type of car in an accident, only the engine size. He quotes pedestrians as 70% more likely to be killed if they were hit by someone driving a 2.4-litre engine vehicle than a 1.6-litre model. This has details on the analysis https://cran.r-project.org/package=stats19 using the statistics package R.

 

[LOL The Irony]

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/oct/07/a-deadly-problem-should-we-ban-suvs-from-our-cities has a quote from Robin Lovelace that the police don't record the type of car in an accident, only the engine size. He quotes pedestrians as 70% more likely to be killed if they were hit by someone driving a 2.4-litre engine vehicle than a 1.6-litre model. This has details on the analysis https://cran.r-project.org/package=stats19 using the statistics package R.

SUV's (in this country) tend to come with nothing bigger than a 2.0, so it's a bit of a reach to blame it on SUV's.

All I can say is... "I want one!"
EDIT: fuel economy appears to be in the region of 7-8mpg (not sure if that's US or UK gallons), so I'll only be it if someone else is paying for the fuel!

I'd just skip that and go for a Scania S Series with the new 770hp engine. Probably get better MPG as well

 

[Lucan]

And because of the off road image (justified or not) the drivers are even more willing to crash them up and down kerbs onto the pavement......

I'm old enough to remember when pavement parking started in a big way, and why. It was during the extensive power cuts of the 1970 winter when town street lighting was off half the time, resulting in a lot of crashes into parked cars. People started parking their cars on the pavement to reduce the chances of that happening.

As a result, drivers then and thereafter lost their respect for the pavement as a safe reserved place for pedestrians, with cyclists since added to the mix. Someone who habitually parks or cycles on pavements will have less, little, or zero hesitation in driving or swerving their car on it to avoid something on the road itself, even if that hits pedestrians who are blanked out in their brains anyway. I have had cars driving along the pavement at me, hooting and waving at me to jump out of the way, because of some hold-up on the road itself. I have had one such a driver get out for fisticuffs when I complained. This attitude has nothing to do with 4x4s.

The propensity for crashing, and the speed (which relates to injuries) of crashes, has far more to do with the personality, capability, and attitude of the driver than the vehicle itself. Use of a heavy SUV may (but not necessarily) be reflecting a drivers personality, but he would drive in the same manner whatever vehicle he is in. Back in the days when the only 4x4s were farmers' Landrovers, my father used to reckon that drivers of Ford Consuls and Zephys were the worst - plus the ever-present van drivers of course. Such drivers will always be with us, unless the driving test were to include some psychoanalysis - which is not such a far-fetched idea.

 

[edwin_m]

There is evidence that increased perception of safety, such as people might experience in a large and heavy vehicle, makes drivers less considerate of the safety of others. I suspect that hypothetical aggressive driver might behave differently if put in a Smart car.

 

[Meerkat]

There is evidence that increased perception of safety, such as people might experience in a large and heavy vehicle, makes drivers less considerate of the safety of others. I suspect that hypothetical aggressive driver might behave differently if put in a Smart car.

The bigger and more comfortable the car is the less the sensation of speed is too.

 

[ABB125]

The bigger and more comfortable the car is the less the sensation of speed is too.

Definitely!
My car is a 2006 Peugeot 107 (stop laughing! It's cheap to insure and run (and tax), which is very important as an 18-year-old). For those of you who don't know, this is a small car.
I have a friend who is a hot air balloon pilot (as is his brother, and mother...). In September I helped with approaching a dozen flights, including on numerous occasions driving their 3.5T Ford Transit* (which, if it was converted to a "standard" rather than "crew" van, I'm pretty sure you could fit my car inside...). This is totally different to my car, and speed really does feel slower (except when cornering fully loaded!), so vehicle size certainly does have an effect.
It reminds me of a time my dad was riving his work van along an road in the snow. At one point (on a fairly long straight which I'm pretty sure is ever-so-slightly downhill) he said that he really should pay more attention to the speed as we were doing over 70mph (but should have been doing 50); it certainly didn't feel like 70!

*fully insured for me to drive, in case anyone was concerned