But they have far fewer side-windows than other EMU stock.To be fair, MLV's don't look much like locomotives though !
I think that technically they were actually locomotives because they were fitted with vacuum exhausters for hauling vacuum fitted vans and they could also haul their own trailer luggage vans.To be fair, MLV's don't look much like locomotives though !
But they have far fewer side-windows than other EMU stock.
EDIT: According to the Blood & Custard website, from early 1989 the MLV were repainted in Network South-East red, white and blue. The upper half of the vehicle would then have been in blue, so at a quick glance the MLV could be mistaken for a loco.
I think that technically they were actually locomotives because they were fitted with vacuum exhausters for hauling vacuum fitted vans and they could also haul their own trailer luggage vans.
A tangent to the main point of the thread, but the Harwich boat trains were still loco-hauled (class 86) when I went that way in September 1992. (I say 'hauled' -- they may have been push-pull with the ex-Scottish driving trailers, but I'm not sure about that).There were loco-hauled boat trains to Harwich from Liverpool Street, but possibly not as late as 1990.
Whereas then it was 90 minutes (longer stop at Ashford, no stop at London Br). 1hr 22 would be impressive.I am quite surprised actually. I thought it would be quicker than that2
Back in 2009 pre-HS1 it took 1 hour 22 minutes from Dover to Priory Charing Cross and that was with 4 stops!
See top of column, below the headcode and 4-character ID.Potentially, although I didn’t see any mention of Hastings on column I was looking at
No (except possibly the Hovercraft connections when they were by the regular service from CHX - those might have used CST sometimes).On another note does anybody remember any of his boat trains running from Cannon Street or Blackfriars during engineering works for instance?
Do you mean 12Cep plus MLV? Try Google, there are plenty of photos online.I’m interested to see what these trains used to look like if anyone has any photos they can dust of
I think that if you check the ordnance survey map you'll see that the spur through Bat and Ball never reaches due west and that the line between Otford and Sevenoaks only goes west just over a km in total basically to avoid going through Sevenoaks town centre. In addition to what you say the route was used to avoid conflicting movements at Bickley Junction. The spur between the Fast Charing Cross Lines and the Victoria Lines via Bromley South were only put in as an Eurostar Enhancement.We've had some interesting discussions previously about the boat trains, and the early Waterloo Eurostars which followed the same selection of routes. Although there were timetabled paths, including for optional reliefs, on the day Control must have been an interesting place to handle them all without delays, much more so in the Up direction. The various alternates didn't seem to vary the time taken that much. Out of London via either Herne Hill or Nunhead, dependent on what stopper had just left, and once through the old Low Level lines in Battersea. The route through Bat & Ball sounds a bit of a joke, especially as at the station there Dover-bound trains are heading due west ... but it makes sense to avoid the Orpington-Sevenoaks bottleneck, only double track, three intermediate stations for any stopper ahead, and the long Polhill tunnel. The two routes are not that far apart, I think in winter with no foliage you might even be able to see from one route to the other, and the link gets you back on the main line.
The SE Division crews knew all the routes of course; once on Eurostar we did go straight ahead at Chiselhurst, and then stopped for about 15 minutes outside Swanley Junction before grinding on round the curves at Maidstone. I did wonder if we had an SNCF driver who was being asked if they knew that route.
The services were an operational nuisance, very heavily peaked in summer and a lot of imbalance needing return ecs workings. Everything I recall was a full 12-car set, plus for some an MLV at the London end, so the driving was from here on the Up journey. It had been ever so, in steam days well-known book author and onetime Stewarts Lane shedmaster Dick Hardy wrote of the challenges summer weekends brought, ships running hours late, the Golden Arrow loco to be highly polished, etc.
The two separate Victorian era Kent companies, the South Eastern and the London Chatham & Dover, who built the lines, merged in 1900. The LC&D ran from Victoria and Holborn Viaduct on the two loop lines that merged through Bromley South, passed under the SE at Chiselhurst, and got to Dover via Faversham. The SE came from Charing Cross and Cannon Street through Tonbridge, and into Dover from the opposite direction. A first step after the merger was to build connecting links at Chiselhurst, as Victoria had the best capacity for boat services, but these allowed use of the main Tonbridge line. Four separate goes have been made to build and then enhance these loops, firstly in 1900, then in 1960 for the Kent electrification, 1976 for the South Eastern resignalling, and finally in 1990 for Eurostar.
I somehow missed out on the "proper" boat trains in latter years, as I then favoured the Hovercraft, which used the existing hourly Dover fast from Charing Cross and a bus link from Dover Priory. First time was actually the first weekend after that big 1976 resignalling, new timetable, and change of running line use, with works chaos all around - but we ran perfectly on time. Went that way on the "inaugural" Waterloo Eurostar as well - it was actually day 2, I saw the television news about the opening, phoned them up envisaging they would be sold out for a few weeks, and found they actually had seats available on the initial single daily service the next day. So I went.
A tangent to the main point of the thread, but the Harwich boat trains were still loco-hauled (class 86) when I went that way in September 1992. (I say 'hauled' -- they may have been push-pull with the ex-Scottish driving trailers, but I'm not sure about that).
Interesting. From my notes, Sunday 14 December 1975, 1000 Victoria to Dover Marine with 68010 & 7186 & 7017 & 7137. Passing points where I noted something were Beckenham Jct, Bromley South, Swanley, Tonbridge, Paddock Wood,Ashford and Dover for the ferry. Always assumed until now that via Bat & Ball was a Sunday diversion.Correct. Bat and Ball (ie Swanley-Sevenoaks) was another regular route. ...
That one was a diversion, but (having checked 1972 and 1979) there were paths for relief services at xx05 and 35 off Victoria via B+B, some of which were regularly used while the others were "Q." Xx00 and 30 were via Orpington (and had the distinction of separate Dover and Folkestone headcodes!) while xx44/45 was Catford Loop and Orpington. I couldn't find any booked or Q paths via Maidstone, although the headcodes were there - it was rather slower.Interesting. From my notes, Sunday 14 December 1975, 1000 Victoria to Dover Marine with 68010 & 7186 & 7017 & 7137. Passing points where I noted something were Beckenham Jct, Bromley South, Swanley, Tonbridge, Paddock Wood,Ashford and Dover for the ferry. Always assumed until now that via Bat & Ball was a Sunday diversion.
Interesting information thank you. Up until that date my entire experience of Southern Region was Central Division, where my grandparents lived, so did not really question the route until I looked later.That one was a diversion, but (having checked 1972 and 1979) there were paths for relief services at xx05 and 35 off Victoria via B+B, some of which were regularly used while the others were "Q." Xx00 and 30 were via Orpington (and had the distinction of separate Dover and Folkestone headcodes!) while xx44/45 was Catford Loop and Orpington. I couldn't find any booked or Q paths via Maidstone, although the headcodes were there - it was rather slower.
Though they appeared in a separate section of the public regional/national ones. The inwards workings were subject to delay!The boat trains were almost a whole 'hidden world' that were not evident from the public NSE timetables.
It seems to have been a SR peculiarity - Weymouth Quay appeared in the WR "normal" table but once the boat trains were switched to Waterloo they disappeared.It's of note that they didn't appear in the public timetables (e.g. table 207 IIRC, the Charing Cross to Dover route, or table 212, Victoria to Dover) while other boat trains, such as Harwich and Weymouth Quay, did.
Yes, it's 3min quicker (even without a London Br stop).Wonder if the xx00 and xx30 off Victoria managed to get ahead of the xx00 and xx30 off Charing Cross before they joined the Tonbridge line?
Would you clarify here please?It seems to have been a SR peculiarity - Weymouth Quay appeared in the WR "normal" table but once the boat trains were switched to Waterloo they disappeared.
I have looked at the public timetables for 1971, 1975, 1980 and 1983: the Weymouth boat trains are only shown as connections in the tables for the shipping services. They do not appear in the main London-Weymouth timetables, but I have read that non-boat passengers were carried on an unadvertised basis, at least as far as Bournemouth.Would you clarify here please?
It's my recollection that the Weymouth boat trains from Waterloo were shown in the public timetable, and I certainly made a return journey to Weymouth Quay on the 09:54 from Waterloo with a day return Macclesfield-Weymouth in the late 1970s.
Maybe the trains were only shown as a service to Bournemouth calling at Southampton?
Thank you - I never had a problem on the (few) times I tried to use them, but I don't have the public timetables myself, and my memory of things this far back has been shown to be faulty more than once! I only went to Weymouth Quay once, perhaps I was just lucky that nobody queried my ticket. I also caught the boat trains between London and Southampton on a couple of other occasions without a problem.I have looked at the public timetables for 1971, 1975, 1980 and 1983: the Weymouth boat trains are only shown as connections in the tables for the shipping services. They do not appear in the main London-Weymouth timetables, but I have read that non-boat passengers were carried on an unadvertised basis, at least as far as Bournemouth.
Thank you - I never had a problem on the (few) times I tried to use them, but I don't have the public timetables myself, and my memory of things this far back has been shown to be faulty more than once! I only went to Weymouth Quay once, perhaps I was just lucky that nobody queried my ticket. I also caught the boat trains between London and Southampton on a couple of other occasions without a problem.
There was a "Continental" supplement to the all-line timetable, with for example London-Dover/Folkestone-Paris connections showing these boat trains, the ferry/hovercraft, and the corresponding French train. I've got one from 1981/2 ish if anyone's interested in a sample page or two.The boat trains were almost a whole 'hidden world' that were not evident from the public NSE timetables...
There was a "Continental" supplement to the all-line timetable, with for example London-Dover/Folkestone-Paris connections showing these boat trains, the ferry/hovercraft, and the corresponding French train. I've got one from 1981/2 ish if anyone's interested in a sample page or two.
Probably tomorrow for the timetable bits.Yes, please!...
Purser - as in someone who holds the purse strings, among other duties....see the Percer...
I must have missed that! Channel island traffic was declining sharply by then, so it presumably made sense to offer the trains to ordinary travellers.I do definitely recall that at least some of the boat trains for Weymouth were in the timetable (Table 158) in either 1982/3 or 1983/4 (can't remember which), as I recall a wavy line (doesn't run all year) along the column and the note "Channel Islands Boat Express" written vertically up the column.
Not to Weymouth - there would have been relief trains in steam days though.Maybe there were 'public' (for anyone to use) and 'private' (boat passengers only) trains and only the 'public' ones were shown.
One day and one night service in the era of the Caesarea and Sarnia, with two sets of Mk1 stock from Clapham Yard.I don't think there were too many of them though, as I did visit Woking several times in that era for a good few hours and don't particularly recall anything other than the standard '91' express, and freight (of which there was quite a bit at that time) passing straight though.
Was InterRail valid on the boat trains?
I did use an InterRail pass on it once, but that had been bought in Sweden.Was InterRail valid on the boat trains?
For a while a bus connection from the Town station to the Quay was available to passengers off the normal train from Waterloo in addition to the boat train.Not to Weymouth - there would have been relief trains in steam days though.
One day and one night service in the era of the Caesarea and Sarnia, with two sets of Mk1 stock from Clapham Yard.
I do definitely recall that at least some of the boat trains for Weymouth were in the timetable (Table 158) in either 1982/3 or 1983/4 (can't remember which), as I recall a wavy line (doesn't run all year) along the column and the note "Channel Islands Boat Express" written vertically up the column.
And in response to the interest in the Dover/Folkestone boat trains, extracts from the 1978-79 International supplement to the GB timetable, showing the covers (hovercraft on the back), and London-Paris (which also show the Night Ferry) and London-Milan pages:Yes, please!