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Video: Could electric roads spark a green transport revolution?

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yorkie

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Occasionally a driver will change lanes or turn off and forget to lower the pantograph.

Even if this only occurs in a tiny percentage of journeys, the disruption from just a small number of occurrences could be immense.
 

najaB

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Occasionally a driver will change lanes or turn off and forget to lower the pantograph.
Yeah, I can definitely see that happening. The other thing is that it basically requires a dedicated e-HGV lane.
 

ac6000cw

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I'd assume there may be a control system that watches the overhead wire and drops the pantograph automatically if it sees too large a deviation from normal position - it's not difficult technology really...

Combine this with self-driving (in this situation) and/or 'convoy' trucking and watch most non-bulk rail freight business disappear, especially the shorter-distance stuff that is most of the UK intermodal market e.g. less than 200-300 miles.

It's these sort of possible developments that the big US freight railroad companies are quite worried about, as they will lower the cost of trucking over longer distances which could easily wipe out the cost advantages the railroads currently have.
 
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Kingspanner

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This is being promoted by wire and stanchion manufacturers. Google "Nikola Tre" instead. Unless you don't like hydrogen in which case cover your eyes.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Interesting, but doesn't seem that practical or advantageous to me. You'd have to get large numbers of lorries to switch. What would be the incentive to haulage firms to do so? There's an obvious disincentive since that these hybrid trucks are likely to be considerably more expensive than normal trucks - and harder to operate since you have another thing for the driver to have to think about.

Also worth pointing out that this will reduce diesel pollution on motorways rather than in urban areas - which is where the pollution most urgently needs to be tackled.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I'd assume there may be a control system that watches the overhead wire and drops the pantograph automatically if it sees too large a deviation from normal position - it's not difficult technology really...

Can diesel engines these days turn on and completely replace the lost electric power instantly? Quickly enough to compensate - for example, for a driver who pulls out to overtake, forgetting to lower the pantograph and switch to diesel just before he does so without losing power/speed during the overtaking manouevre? As I recall you always used to need some seconds for the engine to warm up first, but I may well be out of date.
 

najaB

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Quickly enough to compensate - for example, for a driver who pulls out to overtake, forgetting to lower the pantograph and switch to diesel just before he does so without losing power/speed during the overtaking manouevre?
I suspect there wouldn't be any overtaking allowed or needed while under the wire.
 

HSTEd

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Occasionally a driver will change lanes or turn off and forget to lower the pantograph..
The pantograph is lowered automatically under computer control if the lorry leaves the lane.
The pantographs can already slew under computer control because obviously the lorry does not stay fixed rigidly to the centre of the lane.

Interesting, but doesn't seem that practical or advantageous to me. You'd have to get large numbers of lorries to switch. What would be the incentive to haulage firms to do so?

Cut price traction electricity which is a fraction of the price of diesel once you have to pay duty on it? (Unlike the railways obviously).

EDIT: 130p/litre diesel is apparently a thing now, which is about 110p/litre without VAT, and at the 45% efficiency of lorry engines that translates into an effective price of 21p/kWh.

Electricity delivered to bulk customers is nothing like that expensive, even in the mad system we have now.
There's an obvious disincentive since that these hybrid trucks are likely to be considerably more expensive than normal trucks - and harder to operate since you have another thing for the driver to have to think about.
You could simply ban the sale of new non-hybrid trucks?
Also they aren't harder to operate because the whole point is the system detects the position of the contact wire and controls the pantographs accordingly.

It's not a crude system like that used on trains.
Also worth pointing out that this will reduce diesel pollution on motorways rather than in urban areas - which is where the pollution most urgently needs to be tackled.
Given that 50-66% (depending on who you ask) of all lorry miles occur on the strategic road network.... which is only 4300 route miles, you only need 8600 lane miles to capture a huge fraciton of lorry traffic.

And if you can recharge on any motorway or other major road, battery lorries do kind of become rather more practical since you only have to cover 20 miles (or less!) at the end of the haul.
Or since you don't need a lot of range on internal power, you could even switch to a cleaner burning petrol or LNG engine.
 
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2392

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Does the term Trolleybus come to mind........... Just goes to show there's nowt new in the world. The main reason trolleybuses went out of favour/use in the UK was the need to replace/renew the OHL, which had been inherited from in a lot of cases from the tram networks in towns and cities, when they needed major track renewals......
 

ac6000cw

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Can diesel engines these days turn on and completely replace the lost electric power instantly? Quickly enough to compensate - for example, for a driver who pulls out to overtake, forgetting to lower the pantograph and switch to diesel just before he does so without losing power/speed during the overtaking manouevre? As I recall you always used to need some seconds for the engine to warm up first, but I may well be out of date.

Equip them with batteries to cover the (very short period) between overhead power loss and the diesel power being available. In reality I suspect even quite small batteries would last long enough to perform an overtaking maneuver without needing to start a diesel engine.
 

ac6000cw

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Given that 50-66% (depending on who you ask) of all lorry miles occur on the strategic road network.... which is only 4300 route miles, you only need 8600 lane miles to capture a huge fraciton of lorry traffic.

And if you can recharge on any motorway or other major road, battery lorries do kind of become rather more practical since you only have to cover 20 miles (or less!) at the end of the haul.
Or since you don't need a lot of range on internal power, you could even switch to a cleaner burning petrol or LNG engine.

If you have reasonable battery capacity on the truck as well, you wouldn't even need continuous OHLE, cutting the costs of installing and maintaining the system.
 

PeterC

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Without the need to physically hook trolleypoles over the wires I assume that this technology would also make trolleybuses a lot easier to implement.
 

2392

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Granted there are differences between the old style trolley and modern panto-graphs, but the contact principals are the same...... You only have to look at how the panto-graph has changed/developed over the years. Equally on another forum I'm a member of the same remark has popped up.........Trolleybuses.
 

Meerkat

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Considering the hassle the railways get what are the HSE going to think about this?
Relatively low wires in a public environment. One faulty truck, crashed pylon, bit of vandalism, and you have wires all over the road.
I assume the low voltage simplifies clearances but you would still need serious fencing on bridges over the wires to stop people dropping stuff on them (Presumably you could drop a pole across the two wires for a little fireworks show and much disruption).
Also going to be unpopular with locals as it’s rather ugly (and roads don’t have the “do anything you like within the fence” advantage of railways do they?)
 

najaB

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Considering the hassle the railways get what are the HSE going to think about this?
Trams get approval for on-street running so I can't see it being that difficult to make the safety case.
 

furnessvale

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Cut price traction electricity which is a fraction of the price of diesel once you have to pay duty on it? (Unlike the railways obviously).

EDIT: 130p/litre diesel is apparently a thing now, which is about 110p/litre without VAT, and at the 45% efficiency of lorry engines that translates into an effective price of 21p/kWh.

Electricity delivered to bulk customers is nothing like that expensive, even in the mad system we have now.
If fuel duty is no longer applied, the only question that needs answering is who pays for all this new infrastructure AND the provision of new, and maintenance of existing, roads.

Given that existing HGVs run around the system heavily cross subsidised by the private motorist, I think I already know the answer.
 

PeterC

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A complete non starter due to cost and practicality - we already have electrified infrastructure i.e. get freight on rail!
There are plenty of hauls that are impractical for rail. I don't think that wagonload will be coming back any time soon.
 

HSTEd

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Considering the hassle the railways get what are the HSE going to think about this?
Relatively low wires in a public environment. One faulty truck, crashed pylon, bit of vandalism, and you have wires all over the road.
I assume the low voltage simplifies clearances but you would still need serious fencing on bridges over the wires to stop people dropping stuff on them (Presumably you could drop a pole across the two wires for a little fireworks show and much disruption).
Also going to be unpopular with locals as it’s rather ugly (and roads don’t have the “do anything you like within the fence” advantage of railways do they?)

So the HSE doesn't permit tramways with overhead wiring for the same reasons?

If fuel duty is no longer applied, the only question that needs answering is who pays for all this new infrastructure AND the provision of new, and maintenance of existing, roads.

Given that existing HGVs run around the system heavily cross subsidised by the private motorist, I think I already know the answer.

The same people who pay for the freight to move onto rail?

A complete non starter due to cost and practicality - we already have electrified infrastructure i.e. get freight on rail!

Given the infrastructure's inherent limitations, with regards train length, loading gauge and capacity.... we can't move a significant (on a national scale) amount of extra freight on rail, let alone electric rial.

The amount of freight rail would have to expand by an order of magnitude to even come close.
 
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HSTEd

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That would be the hauliers then, seeing how the FOCs pay track access charges.
The track access charges do not reflect the actual cost of having them on the railway.

If track access charges were realistic Network Rail would not haemmorhage billions in public money every year.
 

furnessvale

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The track access charges do not reflect the actual cost of having them on the railway.

If track access charges were realistic Network Rail would not haemmorhage billions in public money every year.
Once again we must disagree. Most of the "Haemmorhage (of) billions" is the provision of uneconomic passenger services, not freight.
 

Welly

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I think of dodgem cars when I read "electric roads"! That will put the fun back into the daily drive to work.
 

InterCity:125

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Just saw this on the BBC website.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stori...tric-roads-spark-a-green-transport-revolution

Interesting to see this trial, don't know how successful it will be.

This idea is by no means a new one, there is in fact a series of letters to the Daily Telegraph from 1981 that I think cover this issue excellently;

"Some readers evidently cannot bear to face the fact that railways are finished throughout the world.
This relic can be kept going 50 years if we allow them to keep sucking our blood. More sensible, however, to turn them into roads for use exclusively by heavy transport lorries and coaches.
The improvement on existing roads would be enormous. The cost of conversion would be much less then new roads and they could be self-supporting by a charge on users. In fact they could be owned and maintained by the transport industry itself.
If and when petrol becomes uneconomical, the existing overhead wires could be used to supply electricity to the vehicles fitted with trolleys in an update of the trolley buses. Science may even give us a new fuel by then.
But now is the time to stop playing trains.

A.L Rodgers
Walsall, W. Midlands

I have followed the correspondence on railways with great interest but feel that Mr A.L Rodgers letter (April 30) summarises the arguments most succinctly.
His observations on what to do when diesel (not petrol surely?) oil is no longer available for commercial road vehicles is most interesting. He suggests overhead electrification of the system and pantographs on vehicles. All that will be necessary then to achieve maximum efficiency will be to fit flanged wheels to the vehicles and lay rails on the roadbed thus enabling large quantities of passengers and goods to be moved both quickly and safely.
Or is that where we began?

Richard J.P Vokes
Pulham St Mary, Norfolk
 

Meerkat

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Trams get approval for on-street running so I can't see it being that difficult to make the safety case.

Fair point but trams have fewer wires don’t they? They are also physically kept on track (literally), and driven and maintained by much better trained individuals under a much tighter safety regime.
 

87 027

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Presumably also someone will have to pay for the electricity drawn from the wires - I wonder how this will work?
 

najaB

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Fair point but trams have fewer wires don’t they?
Which actually makes them less safe. There seems to be a lot less play in the wires with the demo system in the video than there is in a tram wire. It looks closer to contact bar than wire.
They are also physically kept on track (literally), and driven and maintained by much better trained individuals under a much tighter safety regime.
True, but I suspect that any production system would involve some level of autonomous driving in order to maintain spacing between vehicles and likely to enforce lane discipline.
 

Meerkat

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Which actually makes them less safe. There seems to be a lot less play in the wires with the demo system in the video than there is in a tram wire. It looks closer to contact bar than wire.

trams don’t have a return wire do they? The road system has two contact wires and two pantographs.
 
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