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Virgin rail 'bullies'

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penaltyfines

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Family's fury at Virgin rail 'bullies' who marched them off train when they showed wrong tickets


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...train-showed-wrong-tickets.html#ixzz1DNlZ9MQA

When Stephanie Spacey’s family accidentally boarded the wrong train, they presumed it would be a mistake easily remedied.
But after Virgin Trains demanded they buy new tickets, threatened her 14-year-old son with three months’ imprisonment and led a ‘campaign of threats and intimidation’ against the family, she decided to act.
Mrs Spacey, 30, is suing the company and demanding a full apology.

If it was a genuine mistake, then it's very unfortunate... but rules are rules!
 
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penaltyfines

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It's a shame there isn't a first strike rule, e.g. if you make the mistake once you will be let off, but again and you will have to pay the full amount.

I'm not saying it would be easy to implement, or that it should actually happen, but in principal people that genuinely made a mistake shouldn't be faced with a £270 'fine' the first time.
 

Royston Vasey

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‘We were immediately treated as though we were defrauding the system"

Well, you were, intentional or not.

That pesky little box "I have read and understood the terms and conditions" eh!
 

MikeWh

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30 years old woman.
15 year old son.

Theres a word for girls like her.

Lots of questions and some typical comments from people on here, sadly. Mrcheek, if you read the article again, she is 30 and he is 14. That is quite possible to be legal, so perhaps you ought to reconsider your remarks before you are accused of libel.

Did her friend tell her that they had to get the 9.51? Was the 9.31 actually late such that it appeared to be at 9.51? Do the family often travel by train, ie, are they actually aware of how rail ticketing works? Did they innocently think that travel early would be ok? I know that a year or so ago when I first made a long distance advance journey I was stunned by the restrictions. If I hadn't bought the ticket and had the rules explained to me then I wouldn't have believed there was anything wrong. Obviously I know now.
 

class156

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This woman is such an idiot, how could somebody board a train 20 mins earlier than the ticket would allow them to at a reasonbly big station like Coventry which I would assume at least has a PIS screen showing departures and then claim that they got on the wrong train. I really hope she loses the legal battle.
 

mrcheek

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Mrcheek, if you read the article again, she is 30 and he is 14. That is quite possible to be legal, so perhaps you ought to reconsider your remarks before you are accused of libel.

The son was 14 at the time of the incident, but 15 now.
So YOU need to read things more carefully before you comment!

Being the Daily Mail, Im surprised they havent done the maths themselves and attacked this former teen mother, as all Daily Mail readers know that schoolgirl mothers are the cause of all evil in our society.......

Libel? Cool, I hope she sues me. Bound to help her case against Virgin when I bring out all her old schoolfriends to testify that when she was at school she [REST OF COMMENT DELETED FOR LEGAL REASONS]
 

Royston Vasey

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Lots of questions and some typical comments from people on here, sadly. Mrcheek, if you read the article again, she is 30 and he is 14. That is quite possible to be legal, so perhaps you ought to reconsider your remarks before you are accused of libel.

Did her friend tell her that they had to get the 9.51? Was the 9.31 actually late such that it appeared to be at 9.51? Do the family often travel by train, ie, are they actually aware of how rail ticketing works? Did they innocently think that travel early would be ok? I know that a year or so ago when I first made a long distance advance journey I was stunned by the restrictions. If I hadn't bought the ticket and had the rules explained to me then I wouldn't have believed there was anything wrong. Obviously I know now.

I'd argue that through various pieces of mainly negative publicity, most people seem to know that you buy in advance, you have to get that train. Its not even buried in the T&Cs, it is made clear during the booking process that you must get that train and that train only.

If by some coincidence it is complicated by the 9.31 leaving at exactly 9.51 (what a coincidence if it is true) but they need to take some responsibility for checking it is their train, and whether they are able to get a different train. Let's remember that a cursory glance would have shown "London Euston 09:31, exp 09:51" so it would clearly not be the 09:51 itself.

The attitude of staff is often questioned in such articles but of course an argument goes two ways.

Finally, there always seems to be more to it than is reported in these cases with regard to the facts, the attitudes that were held and displayed, the actual intentions of the passenger and indeed often the knowledge that what they were doing was not permitted.
 
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Failed Unit

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This woman is such an idiot, how could somebody board a train 20 mins earlier than the ticket would allow them to at a reasonbly big station like Coventry which I would assume at least has a PIS screen showing departures and then claim that they got on the wrong train. I really hope she loses the legal battle.

It is not uncommon for a train to disappear off the PIS before it has actaully appears. Although I do doubt at Coventry the next train on that platform would be the 0951.

But this does happen:
0931 is slightly late (only 1 minute but that is enough) - It disappears off the PIS as a result as the computer thinks it is gone. The next train is the 0951 and is displayed on the PIS. The 0931 turns up but the monitors say it is the 0951.

However staff would make announcements etc so very unlikely!
 

DarloRich

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I think this one was on Radio 5 "Goldberg investigates" on sunday evening.

Simple point is she got on the wrong train and therefore had an invalid ticket.

I belive on the radio she said that she had asked an virgin employee at Coventry about the train and been told it was ok to travel.

Now if this DID happen i suppose things turn on what the question she asked was. If she said:

Is this the train to London, i have a ticket can i get on then the answer would be yes

BUT if the question was:Is this the train to London, here is my ticket (clearly stating 0955 only) and the staff memeber said yes i think they would struggle to make a case (if it can be verified) or if he said No you must wait for your train this is the 0933 you can not travel, they have her bang to rights.

I will see if i can find a podcast of the show for you to listen to.
 

Death

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Personally I'm with the family on this one. The rules may be clear that they could only use the 09:51 departure...BUT if the 09:31 had been delayed and came in ~20 minutes later, it's perfectly reasonable they might've come into the station and genuinely thought that was their 09:51 departure. All Virgin trains look the same to most rail users (Heck...Even I can't tell the difference between a Pendo and a Voyager from certain angles! :shock:) and the only time a "genuine mistake" would not apply is if either adult had been a known, long-term commuter, railway employee or enthusiast.

Incidentally, it's interesting to note that a lot of the "up" votes on the Daily Mail comment page seem to support Virgin - A large multinational company with profits - Over an innocent family that made what could easily be a perfectly honest mistake. It does make me wonder whether or not Virgin might be "poisoning" the ratings system on that page. :roll:
(They have their own ISP network, so they have more than enough spare IP addresses and connections to effect such a thing if they so wished...Although for legal clarity, I will add that this is merely a consideration of possibilities and not an accusation. :!:)

Personally - Though I generally support VT in many ways - I'm hoping the family come out on top here. Our legal system is supposed to work under the principles that one is "innocent until proven guilty"...But it seems in this case they're getting directly shafted for what could easily be a perfectly legitimate mistake. <(

Besides: Did the Guard offer them the alternative of leaving the train at the next station and waiting there for the one that they'd been booked on? I know that's what I would've done if I'd been the Guard on that service and had been faced with a situation like that... :idea:
 

Lad Brookes

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Besides: Did the Guard offer them the alternative of leaving the train at the next station and waiting there for the one that they'd been booked on? I know that's what I would've done if I'd been the Guard on that service and had been faced with a situation like that... :idea:

The next station that the 09:31 and 09:51 from Coventry both call at is... Euston.
 

me123

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Another advance ticket non-story. It very clearly states when you purchase the ticket that your tickets are valid on one service and one service only. That's why you get them so cheap. If I bought a similar ticket for a flight, I would only be allowed on one plane and one plane only. In fact, if I tried to remain on the plane they'd just escort me off the premises and the papers would laugh at me. So how come if you do it on a train using a ticket with similar restrictions you would expect to be treated any differently.

Just because rail travel is perceived to be, and in most cases is, "turn-up-and-go" doesn't mean that it always is.
 

SS4

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‘We were immediately treated as though we were defrauding the system and were guilty of a crime’
That's because you were committing a crime...

It's the Daily Mail's usual, one side of the story given and absolutely no proof.
 

Solent&Wessex

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t.

I belive on the radio she said that she had asked an virgin employee at Coventry about the train and been told it was ok to travel.

.


Ah, the good old "That bloke on the station said it would be ok" argument. I must hear that at least a couple of times every day. It is normally just after I've said something like "That ticket isn't valid because....".

I'm sorry, but in general I have absolutely no sympathy with anyone and advance tickets. I used to, but I have heard the same old story over and over and over again so many times that I have now lost all sympathy.

If I had £1 for every person that said to me:

"I don't know what train I'm on, I've lost the reservation" and then I phone and check to find they are booked several hours either side;

"That bloke on the station said it was ok";

"I didn't realise" or "no one told me" when the words "restrictions advised" are stamped on the ticket or it is stapled to a blue / white restrictions card;

"I thought I could catch any train";

"Someone else booked it for me";

or "My last train was cancelled / delayed and I missed my connection" - then I phone to check and find the train they should have been on was fine and upon further questioning they admit that they missed it,

I would be a millionaire and need never work again.
 

SS4

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Ah, the good old "That bloke on the station said it would be ok" argument. I must hear that at least a couple of times every day. It is normally just after I've said something like "That ticket isn't valid because....".

I'm sorry, but in general I have absolutely no sympathy with anyone and advance tickets. I used to, but I have heard the same old story over and over and over again so many times that I have now lost all sympathy.

If I had £1 for every person that said to me:

"I don't know what train I'm on, I've lost the reservation" and then I phone and check to find they are booked several hours either side;

"That bloke on the station said it was ok";

"I didn't realise" or "no one told me" when the words "restrictions advised" are stamped on the ticket or it is stapled to a blue / white restrictions card;

"I thought I could catch any train";

"Someone else booked it for me";

or "My last train was cancelled / delayed and I missed my connection" - then I phone to check and find the train they should have been on was fine and upon further questioning they admit that they missed it,

I would be a millionaire and need never work again.

Doesn't Coventry have PA announcements stating the platform, time and destination?

Plus it's highly likely that no such thing was said to the customer. In a world where everyone was honest then not so bad but too many people want to worm their way out of it. You don't need to be a rail enthusiast to tell the time after all.

I have no sympathy and I would like to see Virgin take legal action over their claims, people like this will often use the tabloids because they know they'll overlook any facts in order to get a good story out and the plan is to scare the company into backing down
 

Death

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The next station that the 09:31 and 09:51 from Coventry both call at is... Euston.
Ahh...That's that idea nipped in the bud, then! :lol:

Just imagine all the hassle saved though if that family had travelled by London Midland instead. They would've paid the same price, but would've gotton tickets valid for any off-peak LM service! 8-);)
 

Railjet

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It is complicated by the 9.31 leaving at exactly 9.51 (if that's true, what a coincidence if it is true) but they need to take some responsibility for checking it is their train, and whether they are able to get a different train. Let's remember that a cursory glance would have shown "London Euston 09:31, exp 09:51" so it would clearly not be the 09:51 itself.

Where does it say the 09:31 was delayed? :?
 

Capybara

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Passing no judgement at all on the issue, especially as I have been exposed as a 'moaner' elsewhere today, and purely to provide information, I was on Coventry station in December in an almost identical situation ie where trains were being delayed by almost exactly the timetabled gap between trains, and the PIS was always quite clear which train was next and what the delays were to others. Trains did not magically disappear from the screen following their presumed departure. Tannoy announcements, furthermore, were quite clear and no one who was paying attention could have been in any doubt which train was which.
 

Geezertronic

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And since we know beardie Branson would sexually pleasure a horse if he thought it would give him positive publicity, yet he refused to budge here, we can safely assume that this is an open and shut case of deliberate fare evasion.

I don't know about his personal pleasures (but would suggest that your horse example is a figment of your imagination), but as far as I was aware Richard Branson was not involved in the day to day running of Virgin Trains?
 

TomJ93

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AFAIK the 09:31 calls at WJ and the 09:51 calls at MK.

The 07:31 and the 7:52 don't though.
 

DarloRich

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my view is that unless everuthing went against them ie info points not working, no tannoy, showing the tickets to a station staff memeber who ok'd it then they have yu bang to rights.

Also the Goldberg programme and the lady suggested Virgin were suing them - not the other way around.

BTW they are doing that becuse you are a fare evader - harsh but fare!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
think this might be the link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00yb4m5/5_live_Investigates_06_02_2011
 

jon0844

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I am sure the EC TM on our train home on Sunday said a good two or three times, in a very clear fashion, that passengers with advanced tickets needed to check the date and the time matched the service which she read out (to make it perfectly clear and easy to match-up) and warned that any ticket that was not for that service would result in a totally new ticket being sold and the existing one being invalid and worthless.

That's EC, but surely Virgin says much the same?

Now, I can say that on my last trip with EC I nearly did board the wrong train. We'd walked down the platform (3?) at York to be in the right section for our booked seats and the previous train was delayed. Where we stood was away from the screens and not close to the speakers, such that a lot of people boarded. I asked staff who said it was the earlier train, so we got off. A lot of people probably didn't - but who knows if they were waiting for that, had open tickets or would get 'caught'.

However, given the circumstances (the delayed train arrived almost to the minute 'our' service was due) I would hope that EC wouldn't have done anyone. The worst that would have happened was people not being able to sit in their seats occupied by someone else.

I am sure if records showed a Virgin train arriving at the exact same time, discretion could be used then too - but it seems that didn't happen.

In other words; tough. That's why advance tickets are cheap. Try doing the same thing when you miss your Ryanair flight, or even arriving early and assuming you'll get on an earlier flight. At best you'll pay the excess, plus a booking fee, but you certainly won't blag it.

Having read some of the comments, it's quite ironic that they moan about the fares varying so much - while making comparisons to flying. Er, hello! The reason fares vary so much, as against a nice simple single fare, is that the train companies operate JUST LIKE THE AIRLINES. And the airlines don't let you change flight for exactly the same reason.

If all advance tickets were scrapped, there's a chance the walk-on fare could be lowered a bit but not much.. and then we'd ALL be moaning. It's crazy to think that an advanced ticket with a seat reservation could be used on another train, any more than you could decide that you paid for a £20 ticket (for example) but then decided to go somewhere completely different, with a different operator, perhaps on a different day (but also costing £20) and you refuse to pay because you have totally invalid tickets worth the same amount that you didn't use.
 
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ChrisTheRef

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I'm completely with Virgin on this one.

When you buy the tickets, you agree to the T's + C's. If you don't agree, don't buy the ticket.

Travelling on the 0931 renders your ticket invalid and you have to buy a new one. If they refuse, prosecute, no matter whether they're fourteen, forty or twice that!
 

Darandio

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I know that a year or so ago when I first made a long distance advance journey I was stunned by the restrictions.

Before I make it any further down the thread I have to respond.

What is there to be stunned about?

If you buy an advance ticket and buy that particular ticket for a specified service, what "stunning" restrictions are there other than make sure you are then on time and make sure you catch the right train? It isn't hardly rocket science!

Obviously there are other circumstances that can become involved with regards to late connections etc etc but on reading the article it seems this is not the case and they just boarded the wrong train which violates the first restriction!
 

DarloRich

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If they just sat quiet i bet they would have got away with it - the number of times i come back from BHM or MAN on Virgin and never get a ticket check!
 
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