Wartime buses

[Ken H]

Just got a 1941 West Yorkshire Road Car timetable. I am comparing it to a 1936 one I also have. quite a lot missing.
When did shortages really start to bite, staff and buses? I know many buses went to London to replace those lost in bombing. But by 1941?
And when were men getting called up in big numbers? And when were women driving buses in large numbers?

The 1936 one is already on Timetable world. The 1941 will be in the next release, around December. When I have scanned it!

 

[Snow1964]

It wasn’t just London that gained buses to replace those lost in the Blitz, Coventry gained a few (due to the heavy bombing which stopped the tram system) and all the big factories turned over to war work.

The big shadow factories around the country needed vast numbers of workers and some buses were diverted to serving these, I think I read in the past that some came from places like seaside towns where services weren’t needed as beaches were closed.

 

[Ken H]

It wasn’t just London that gained buses to replace those lost in the Blitz, Coventry gained a few (due to the heavy bombing which stopped the tram system) and all the big factories turned over to war work.

The big shadow factories around the country needed vast numbers of workers and some buses were diverted to serving these, I think I read in the past that some came from places like seaside towns where services weren’t needed as beaches were closed.

thanks. yes there are loads of workmens services in the book. The electric motor factory at Guiseley was one placed served. no Avro Yeadon, perhaps too early. or secret.

 

[Eyersey468]

There were some utility buses built as well to help replace wartime losses, mostly Bedford OWBs and Guy Arabs.

 

[Roilshead]

Just got a 1941 West Yorkshire Road Car timetable. I am comparing it to a 1936 one I also have. quite a lot missing.
When did shortages really start to bite, staff and buses? I know many buses went to London to replace those lost in bombing. But by 1941?
And when were men getting called up in big numbers? And when were women driving buses in large numbers?

The 1936 one is already on Timetable world. The 1941 will be in the next release, around December. When I have scanned it!

Conscription started in a limited way in May 1939, with six-months military training for men between 20-22. Any bus crews that were still on the reserve list or in the "volunteer reserves" would have been called up immediately on declaration of war. Conscription - in Great Britain, there was no conscription here in Northern Ireland - started in earnest shortly after war was declared (the relevant legislation having been passed that very day) for those aged 19-41, being extended to those under the age of 51 in 1942 - so I imagine manpower shortages would have been felt very early.

 

[Busaholic]

There were some utility buses built as well to help replace wartime losses, mostly Bedford OWBs and Guy Arabs.

It was mainly double deckers that were produced, Guy Arabs (as you say) and Daimler CWs being very prominent, but also some Bristol Ks, AEC Regents and, for London Transport, Leyland Titans (the STD class.) L.T. also used the other companies except (rather strangely) AEC.

 

[Roger1973]

No argument with what's been said so far - some services were reduced, particularly round seaside towns, and evening / Sunday services for leisure were reduced, with additional services put in for factories on war work and new military camps.

In London, bus services were reduced where there were parallel tram or trolleybus services to reduce petrol / diesel fuel and rubber for tyres.

Many operators kept buses going that would have otherwise been withdrawn, and in some cases reinstated buses that were in store.

Coach travel was much reduced, with quite a few coaches being turned in to ambulances or used by the military, and Victoria Coach Station became a base for Auxiliary Fire Service and military vehicles.

There were stages of the war when London buses went out on hire elsewhere - many of the 'Tilling ST' class in particular ended up being sent all round the country, to operators including Lincolnshire (where more buses were needed to serve the new and expanded RAF bases in 'bomber county'), and in South Wales (increased services to coal mines and factories.)

The Richard Wallace book on East Kent records that quite a high proportion of the company's fleet was requisitioned - double deckers (in some cases with EK drivers) ending up in the midlands on services to new / expanded factories, and single deckers (again, in some cases contracted complete with drivers) in military use. (I don't think that any civilian bus drivers ended up going outside England with their buses though.)

Women bus drivers were pretty much a rarity in both world wars. Some operators allowed women to drive trams or trolleybuses but not motor buses, and women took on more unskilled / semi skilled engineering / maintenance roles. Some jobs were 'reserved occupations' and exempt from conscription, and I understand that bus / tram driver (but not conductor) was a reserved occupation, although I don't think that bus / tram drivers were prohibited from volunteering for the armed services. Men were also encouraged (I'm not sure if they were compelled) to stay on past retirement age.

 

[Titfield]

From memory (of an article in a very old Buses Annual), Bedford OBs often had their seating changed to perimeter seating to increase total capacity.

Also I think coach travel virtually ceased sometime in 1942 so that the vehicles could be redeployed,

 

[Roilshead]

thanks. yes there are loads of workmens services in the book. The electric motor factory at Guiseley was one placed served. no Avro Yeadon, perhaps too early. or secret.

The AVRO factory at Yeadon opened in 1941, building Ansons - assembly of Lancasters started the following year. Given the efforts to camouflage the site - single storey/partially underground/camouflaged/fake cows on the roof - it wouldn't be surprising if workers services to the site (I think they ran to a bus park at Yeadon Stoops) weren't advertised.

 

[Ken H]

here are the workpeoples services from my 1941 West Yorkshire road Car timetable. One is in the main section, the other in the York-West Yorkshire section.

 

[Roger1973]

At a slight tangent, I have remembered this series of articles - about a London Transport (WW2) wartime woman tram conductor who stayed with LT (and later moved to country buses at Staines) after the war. May be of interest.

 

[Ploughman]

There used to be a Daimler "Austerity " Double Decker at Steamport Museum in Southport.
No idea what happened to it after Steamport shut.

I think it used to be the Commentry vehicle for the racing at Aintree until it put a conrod thrugh it's engine block.

 

[Strathclyder]

Branching off of the original topic, how many wartime/austerity buses survive in preservation today? Don't suppose there's a list anywhere out there in the interwebs?

 

[Eyersey468]

Branching off of the original topic, how many wartime/austerity buses survive in preservation today? Don't suppose there's a list anywhere out there in the interwebs?

I believe there is one surviving utility bodied London Guy Arab in a museum, I have no idea how many other utility buses survive

 

[Roger1973]

Don't think there is a definitive list of preserved buses. National Association of Transport Museums used to publish something now and then, but it tended to be museum collections and major individual preservationists, but not buses owned by private individuals.

I'm aware of

HGC 130, London Transport Guy G 351, with London Bus Museum

VV 8934, Northampton Daimler 129, with Lincolnshire Road Transport Museum

CCX 777, Huddersfield Daimler JOC 217, with Quantock Heritage, Somerset (this bus has carried other liveries including PMT and London Transport, either for filming purposes or because the owner felt like it - think it's back in Huddersfield livery now)

CTP 200, Portsmouth Bedford OWB 170, with City of Portsmouth Preserved Transport

I have a vague idea there's another OWB in private preservation somewhere in the east midlands, but don't know the details.

HHA 26, Midland Red Guy, at Wythall

VD 3433, W Alexander pre-war Leyland Lion, with 1945 semi-Utility single deck body, with Quantock Heritage, Somerset

CDR 679, W Alexander Guy - think it's with the Lathalmond Museum

There are probably others. And maybe one or two buses out there with chassis that had utility bodies when new but got re-bodied in the 1950s.

 

[telstarbox]

With lower car ownership and more manual work, did WW2 have a smaller impact on bus ridership than the Covid pandemic?

 

[Roger1973]

With lower car ownership and more manual work, did WW2 have a smaller impact on bus ridership than the Covid pandemic?

I don't think that government statistics were kept at the time, but possibly.

There would have been a lot of factors in play -

Men away in the armed services, some industries did wind down.

Increased traffic for war factories. Some would have involved contract not service bus.

Petrol rationing - a lot of private cars were laid up 'for the duration' by both civilians and men away in the services (and the wives of service-men would have been less likely to have held driving licences then)

Leisure / holiday traffic much reduced, some increase in traffic to / from UK military bases.

Schools and some workplaces evacuated (for example some government and railway offices moved to rural or seaside locations - although east coast locations got evacuated when enemy invasion seemed likely) - again some resulted in contract rather than service bus moves (London Transport Country Buses still ran a contract or two the Deepdene House offices at Dorking in to the 1950s at least - this was set up by the Southern Railway and passed to BR)

 

[duncombec]

Don't think there is a definitive list of preserved buses. National Association of Transport Museums used to publish something now and then, but it tended to be museum collections and major individual preservationists, but not buses owned by private individuals.

[...]

The PSV Circle produce a list every 3 years or so - the most recent is dated March 2021. As with most publications from that organization, though, it's far from cheap - £22 (a rise of £4 from the 2018 edition, albeit now on clearance at £5): https://www.psvcircle.org.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=134_221&product_id=665

 

[Strathclyder]

Don't think there is a definitive list of preserved buses. National Association of Transport Museums used to publish something now and then, but it tended to be museum collections and major individual preservationists, but not buses owned by private individuals.

I'm aware of

HGC 130, London Transport Guy G 351, with London Bus Museum

VV 8934, Northampton Daimler 129, with Lincolnshire Road Transport Museum

CCX 777, Huddersfield Daimler JOC 217, with Quantock Heritage, Somerset (this bus has carried other liveries including PMT and London Transport, either for filming purposes or because the owner felt like it - think it's back in Huddersfield livery now)

CTP 200, Portsmouth Bedford OWB 170, with City of Portsmouth Preserved Transport

I have a vague idea there's another OWB in private preservation somewhere in the east midlands, but don't know the details.

HHA 26, Midland Red Guy, at Wythall

VD 3433, W Alexander pre-war Leyland Lion, with 1945 semi-Utility single deck body, with Quantock Heritage, Somerset

CDR 679, W Alexander Guy - think it's with the Lathalmond Museum

There are probably others. And maybe one or two buses out there with chassis that had utility bodies when new but got re-bodied in the 1950s.

Thanks for this list.

CDR 679 is a noteworthy example, as the chassis is from a ex-Plymouth Guy Arab II (it originally had a Roe body of which little remained after it was converted into a bale carrier after being bought by a Wormingford-based farmer), but the Duple-style utility body is from a ex-Northampton Daimler CWD6; both were brought together at Lathalmond in what is arguably one of the museum's more remarkable engineering accomplishments.

679 throughout it's preservation life (all relevent image copyrights remain with the original owners) from converted farm vehicle to resplendent representative of a bygone age.

Are you as old as I?

If you are in your late 50s like me you will probably remember this bus which appeared in the 1967 edition of Buses Annual. Seen here at the Scottish Vintage Bus Museum in Lathalmond on September 14th 1996 is CDR 679 a Guy Arab 11 which had been new to Plymouth City Transport in October 1943...

www.flickr.com

PLYMOUTH 249 CDR679 LATHALMOND 190801

Explore David Beardmore's 163028 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

2005-03-27 CDR 679 Guy Utility ex Plymouth, Brough

Explore John Carter 1962's 69692 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

CDR 679 - AA Motor Services

04-08-2013 - SVBM Lathalmond

www.flickr.com

CDR 679

Explore kdbarclayG750's 35168 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

 

[MotCO]

Women bus drivers were pretty much a rarity in both world wars. Some operators allowed women to drive trams or trolleybuses but not motor buses, and women took on more unskilled / semi skilled engineering / maintenance roles.

Don't forget, buses did not have power steering, and probably no synchromesh on the gears. Probably not suitable for slightly built people.

L.T. also used the other companies except (rather strangely) AEC.

Was the AEC factory turned over to making planes, or did AEC bus production continue during the war?

 

[Busaholic]

Don't forget, buses did not have power steering, and probably no synchromesh on the gears. Probably not suitable for slightly built people.


Was the AEC factory turned over to making planes, or did AEC bus production continue during the war?

Apparently, they supplied AEC Regents to Edinburgh Corporation and Leicester City Transport, but maybe the chassis had already been built and they were just sent for bodying?

I used to know the answer to your question, but old age precludes me getting to the information. I don't remember bus production continuing, but please don't take that as definitive.

 

[Roger1973]

Don't forget, buses did not have power steering, and probably no synchromesh on the gears. Probably not suitable for slightly built people.

Absolutely (I drive some buses of that era occasionally) - but the thinking of the day (and for some years beyond) tended towards "some women wouldn't be able to do this, therefore it's not a job for women"

Was the AEC factory turned over to making planes, or did AEC bus production continue during the war?

Apparently, they supplied AEC Regents to Edinburgh Corporation and Leicester City Transport, but maybe the chassis had already been built and they were just sent for bodying?

There was a release of 'unfrozen' buses round 1941/2 - i.e. makers were allowed to complete chassis / bodies that had been started but not finished when production was halted (example being this batch of London Transport STLs) - there was a certain amount of mixing and matching, and operators got whatever was available, in some cases not matching existing fleets. There may have been unfrozen chassis that ended up with utility bodies.

My understanding is that AEC did motor vehicles for the military, not planes. The AEC Matador being the most well known, there was also the AEC Armoured Car

 

[jp4712]

Don't think there is a definitive list of preserved buses. National Association of Transport Museums used to publish something now and then, but it tended to be museum collections and major individual preservationists, but not buses owned by private individuals.

I'm aware of

HGC 130, London Transport Guy G 351, with London Bus Museum

VV 8934, Northampton Daimler 129, with Lincolnshire Road Transport Museum

CCX 777, Huddersfield Daimler JOC 217, with Quantock Heritage, Somerset (this bus has carried other liveries including PMT and London Transport, either for filming purposes or because the owner felt like it - think it's back in Huddersfield livery now)

CTP 200, Portsmouth Bedford OWB 170, with City of Portsmouth Preserved Transport

I have a vague idea there's another OWB in private preservation somewhere in the east midlands, but don't know the details.

HHA 26, Midland Red Guy, at Wythall

VD 3433, W Alexander pre-war Leyland Lion, with 1945 semi-Utility single deck body, with Quantock Heritage, Somerset

CDR 679, W Alexander Guy - think it's with the Lathalmond Museum

There are probably others. And maybe one or two buses out there with chassis that had utility bodies when new but got re-bodied in the 1950s.

FTB11, Leigh Corporation 84, at the Museum of Transport Greater Manchester

EWM358, Southport Corporation 62, at St Helens