WCML stopping patterns and journey times

[theironroad]

Moderator Note: posts #1-#15 originally in this thread:

Caledonian Sleeper

The Caledonian Sleeper thread was closed because matters were being raised in it that were also in other threads. It was a shame because I found it the most interesting thread on the forum and hence I now visit here less often. Today another poster has asked a question in a rolling stock thread...

www.railforums.co.uk

I was a regular user of the sleeper West Highland and lowlander to Glasgow until I retired in 2019.
It was very noticeable how passenger numbers on the Glasgow portion declined (especially Southbound)once the West Coast Modernisation was completed.
The West Coast modernisation meant for me that it was possible to get home to Romney Marsh off the mid day train from the West Highland Stations for the first time or from Helensburgh at around 3 pm.
Even pre-covid there wasn't any 4 hour trains to London from Glasgow if you were lucky it was closer to 5 hours with many hours requiring a change at Crewe or a lengthy trundle via Birmingham.
The headline times promised for the West Coast modernisation were never achieved because of Network rails inability to deliver on 140 mph running and Virgins policy of using London to Scotland Expresses to provide Inter Lancashire shopping specials on most hours.
If the Hs2 website is to be believed London to Glasgow will drop to 3 hrs 40 mins if delivered in my opinion that will kill the Glasgow sleeper market.

There was one that if not exactly 4 hrs from EUS to gLc was very close,. Think it left eus at 1630 and only stopped at Preston (crew change).

Used it a few times but can't remember how long it ran before being removed. This would have been post pendolino, can't remember the years though.

 

[adrock1976]

There was one that if not exactly 4 hrs from EUS to gLc was very close,. Think it left eus at 1630 and only stopped at Preston (crew change).

Used it a few times but can't remember how long it ran before being removed. This would have been post pendolino, can't remember the years though.

The only train that I am aware of to have done a London - Glasgow run in less than four hours is the APT on a test run back in 1981.

The Class 390 did narrowly beat the APT by a few minutes in one direction when on a test run in recent years.

 

[Bald Rick]

There was one that if not exactly 4 hrs from EUS to gLc was very close,. Think it left eus at 1630 and only stopped at Preston (crew change).

Used it a few times but can't remember how long it ran before being removed. This would have been post pendolino, can't remember the years though.

Yep the 1630. 4hrs dead IIRC. I caught it a few times. Very very lightly loaded north of Preston, even on Thursdays and Fridays, rarely more than 100 on.

It came in 2008, was definitely still there in 2014. Think it went in the Dec 15 change, or more specifically, the standard stops were added.

 

[Boodiggy]

Yep the 1630. 4hrs dead IIRC. I caught it a few times. Very very lightly loaded north of Preston, even on Thursdays and Fridays, rarely more than 100 on.

It came in 2008, was definitely still there in 2014. Think it went in the Dec 15 change, or more specifically, the standard stops were added.

It left Euston at 1630, Preston 1830 and arrived Glasgow 2038.
I think it had the usual stops added back in about two or three years ago...
I think it was 1S82...

 

[adrock1976]

It left Euston at 1630, Preston 1830 and arrived Glasgow 2038.
I think it had the usual stops added back in about two or three years ago...
I think it was 1S82...

Was that one the "Royal Scot"?

 

[Boodiggy]

Was that one the "Royal Scot"?

Don’t think it was a named Train although happy to be corrected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH, I'd say the standard hourly Takt is more important than the headline 4 hour journey time. Crack expresses are only useful if the plan for your day happens to coincide with their timing.

You could perhaps do something like removing the Lancaster, Oxenholme and Penrith stops from the fast and add the missing ones into the TPE and "via Brum" service, but that would muck up the freight paths.

 

[route101]

It left Euston at 1630, Preston 1830 and arrived Glasgow 2038.
I think it had the usual stops added back in about two or three years ago...
I think it was 1S82...

Yes i remember taking it, i could get to East Kilbride half an hour earlier !

 

[paul1609]

TBH, I'd say the standard hourly Takt is more important than the headline 4 hour journey time. Crack expresses are only useful if the plan for your day happens to coincide with their timing.

You could perhaps do something like removing the Lancaster, Oxenholme and Penrith stops from the fast and add the missing ones into the TPE and "via Brum" service, but that would muck up the freight paths.

The problem with both mainlines to Scotland from the prospective of Southeast based customers is that they are effectively fast to the Lancashire/ Yorkshire borders and then effectively stopping trains to Glasgow/Edinburgh the rail industry has failed to separate the NE and NW markets from the Scottish Market. By the time you add in the walk down Euston Rd or tube transfer air really is a no-brainer. Perhaps what is needed when HS2 opens is to concentrate the London Scottish Market on one of the two routes say, Euston, Old Oak Common, Birmingham Interchange, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow.

 

[Ianno87]

Was that one the "Royal Scot"?

Don’t think it was a named Train although happy to be corrected.

Virgin dropped named trains in 2004.

Personally, I did however refer to the 1630 informally as 'The Royal Scot'.

TBH, I'd say the standard hourly Takt is more important than the headline 4 hour journey time. Crack expresses are only useful if the plan for your day happens to coincide with their timing.

It was clear that all the 1630 running with limited stops was achieving was pushing Carlisle etc passengers onto other services.

 

[Bald Rick]

It left Euston at 1630, Preston 1830 and arrived Glasgow 2038.
I think it had the usual stops added back in about two or three years ago...
I think it was 1S82...

Now you say 4h08, you are quite right. It often got to Preston sub 2hr though, which I always found impressive.

The problem with both mainlines to Scotland from the prospective of Southeast based customers is that they are effectively fast to the Lancashire/ Yorkshire borders and then effectively stopping trains to Glasgow/Edinburgh the rail industry has failed to separate the NE and NW markets from the Scottish Market. By the time you add in the walk down Euston Rd or tube transfer air really is a no-brainer. Perhaps what is needed when HS2 opens is to concentrate the London Scottish Market on one of the two routes say, Euston, Old Oak Common, Birmingham Interchange, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow.

HS2 will do that. IIRC- Euston, OOC, Preston, Carlisle, Glasgow/Edinburgh.

 

[theironroad]

Was that one the "Royal Scot"?

Pre pendolino, I seem to recall the 1030 may have been the royal Scot. Not 100% on that, but sparks a memory.

 

[Bald Rick]

Pre pendolino, I seem to recall the 1030 may have been the royal Scot. Not 100% on that, but sparks a memory.

Yes it was.

 

[alangla]

It was clear that all the 1630 running with limited stops was achieving was pushing Carlisle etc passengers onto other services.

Did that one not have a stopper following it from Euston anyway? IIRC there were regular additional stops at Carlisle because people boarded at Preston thinking “everything stops at Carlisle”

 

[Ianno87]

Did that one not have a stopper following it from Euston anyway? IIRC there were regular additional stops at Carlisle because people boarded at Preston thinking “everything stops at Carlisle”

Followed by the 1633 to Preston (Rugby, Stafford, Warrington, Wigan), which now extends to Blackpool.

Also followed by the additional 1657 Glasgow for the Lakes stations and Carlisle.

 

[CW2]

The DfT (and Virgin) were most insistent that there should be a headline journey time train on each of the principal routes upon completion of the West Coast Route Modernisation. In the mornings there were southbound flights of trains with 1Rxx headcodes to distinguish them from the regular interval stopping patterns. I forget the exact details, but it was basically one from Manchester 07:00 calling Stockport only (thus running non-stop through Stoke, using the middle road whilst it still existed), one from Liverpool calling Runcorn only, and one from Birmingham New Street non-stop. There was a Birmingham International - Euston which ran right behind it to pick up the intermediate stops. For Glasgow it was considered more important to have a fast northbound train late afternoon, hence the 16:30 in four hours 8 minutes as discussed above.

 

[LRV3004]

The former "Royal Scot" in the pre-Pendolino days used to leave Euston at 1040, then got changed to 1035. Called at Preston, Oxenholme, Carlisle then Glasgow. Headcode was 1S57.

 

[The Planner]

The DfT (and Virgin) were most insistent that there should be a headline journey time train on each of the principal routes upon completion of the West Coast Route Modernisation. In the mornings there were southbound flights of trains with 1Rxx headcodes to distinguish them from the regular interval stopping patterns. I forget the exact details, but it was basically one from Manchester 07:00 calling Stockport only (thus running non-stop through Stoke, using the middle road whilst it still existed), one from Liverpool calling Runcorn only, and one from Birmingham New Street non-stop. There was a Birmingham International - Euston which ran right behind it to pick up the intermediate stops. For Glasgow it was considered more important to have a fast northbound train late afternoon, hence the 16:30 in four hours 8 minutes as discussed above.

The Manchester has certainly got eroded now, the International starter is likely to get binned for the foreseeable because of COVID as well as the Euston peak extras in the afternoon.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I remember the 10:30 off Glasgow had stops only at Carlisle, Penrith, Preston and London Euston. That one was the Southbound Royal Scot right? Nowadays it is just like a regular service but with a random call at Rugby.

Wasn't the reason for additional stops on the 16:30 because of places like Warrington, Wigan and Lancaster having an abnormal gap in the Scotland services?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I used to do Birmingham-Edinburgh after electrification to Glasgow, split at Carstairs.
Most of them were non-stop Carlisle-Preston and Preston-Crewe and were very fast as a result.
My perception is that the overall journey time was faster then than now, despite the diesel-hauled bit Edinburgh-Carstairs and the shunting there.
It seems that route upgrades since have gone into improvements at intermediate stations, and general frequency, rather than end-to-end journey times.
And no though trains beyond Glasgow/Edinburgh either.

 

[Ianno87]

Wasn't the reason for additional stops on the 16:30 because of places like Warrington, Wigan and Lancaster having an abnormal gap in the Scotland services?

Yes, the loading on the 1630 was relatively low with only stopping at Preston, so adding in the stops balance out passenger loadings better. Lancaster in particular ended up with, in effect, a 90 minute gap in service (Warrington/Wigan not so bad due to the 1633, albeit that was a single Voyager so not great for capacity).

 

[CW2]

... and in so doing the "sacrosanct" headline journey time that we had all struggled to deliver was quietly forgotten about, once it became expedient to do so.

 

[hexagon789]

Virgin dropped named trains in 2004.

2005, the summer timetable is the last to list The Royal Scot and The Caledonian in table 6.

 

[Bletchleyite]

... and in so doing the "sacrosanct" headline journey time that we had all struggled to deliver was quietly forgotten about, once it became expedient to do so.

Which, to be honest, is a good thing. As I said crack expresses are only any use if your journey happens to fit when they run. Mostly it won't, and so an all day Takt, which is what we have, is of far greater value.

Shouting about your headline journey time is on the same level as Ryanair shouting about 99p fares, available once a week on a Tuesday evening, say.

 

[jfollows]

The Manchester has certainly got eroded now

Can you perhaps elaborate?
I went on the first 07:00 Manchester-London, sadly I've lost the timings of the journey, but it did indeed use the old middle road at Stoke. There was a period during which it wasn't able to be timetabled in 2 hours because of a long-lasting slack at Watford, but that's gone now, and today it arrived on time.

Realtime Trains - 1R18 0701 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The starter from Birmingham International ran today: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P03999/2020-09-24/detailed
5R16 from Oxley, 07:42 from International, 07:53 from Coventry and arrived Euston slightly early at 08:50

Annoying automatic merge of threads:

I used to do Birmingham-Edinburgh after electrification to Glasgow, split at Carstairs.
Most of them were non-stop Carlisle-Preston and Preston-Crewe and were very fast as a result.
My perception is that the overall journey time was faster then than now, despite the diesel-hauled bit Edinburgh-Carstairs and the shunting there.
It seems that route upgrades since have gone into improvements at intermediate stations, and general frequency, rather than end-to-end journey times.
And no though trains beyond Glasgow/Edinburgh either.

I recall an up evening journey which ran non-stop Carstairs to Preston too.

 

[CW2]

Which, to be honest, is a good thing. As I said crack expresses are only any use if your journey happens to fit when they run. Mostly it won't, and so an all day Takt, which is what we have, is of far greater value.

Shouting about your headline journey time is on the same level as Ryanair shouting about 99p fares, available once a week on a Tuesday evening, say.

I totally agree.

 

[Ianno87]

2005, the summer timetable is the last to list The Royal Scot and The Caledonian in table 6.

Ah, I remember now - most (e.g. The Manchester Pullman) got dropped in Sept 2004. The Royal Scot and Caledonian clung on for slightly longer as you say.

Can you perhaps elaborate?
I went on the first 07:00 Manchester-London, sadly I've lost the timings of the journey, but it did indeed use the old middle road at Stoke. There was a period during which it wasn't able to be timetabled in 2 hours because of a long-lasting slack at Watford, but that's gone now, and today it arrived on time.

Off: memory:

September 2004: 0700-0901
Dec 2008: 0700-0858
2015-ish (when LM 110mph peak services introduced: 0700-0901 due to pathing added at Colwich to let an LM go first)
Pre-covid: Clawed back to 0701-0900

 

[jfollows]

I apologise if my post was unclear, but it's my understanding that the 07:00 Manchester to London ran today (well, it's the 07:01 departure now) and has been running for a number of weeks now. Clearly it didn't run for more than a few weeks earlier in the year. Today's timetable isn't completely as it was before then pandemic, for example 1R17 (06:43 Manchester-London via Wilmslow) has gained a Milton Keynes call, but the majority of the "headline" fast up morning services seem to be running now.

I may have misunderstood some of the earlier posts which implied that these services are not currently running, or I may be erroneous in my understanding that they are.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Aren’t they classed as 1RXX to distinguish that it’s a peak train? Particularly the 04:28 from Glasgow is 1R20 and is substantially more expensive than the 05:40 behind it.

 

[Ianno87]

Aren’t they classed as 1RXX to distinguish that it’s a peak train? Particularly the 04:28 from Glasgow is 1R20 and is substantially more expensive than the 05:40 behind it.

I think they're the designated peak trains for performance regime purposes (i.e. more £££ for the delay minutes)