West Midlands staff escorting enthusiasts away from water Orton and coleshill Parkway stations

[Freightmaster]

I fully agree.
At present while in lockdown the Government message is "....stay at home...". Only go outside for shopping, exercise, medical reasons, etc.
I cannot see how trainspotting fits into any of these categories permitting you to be outside.

Absolutely correct, but as a reminder the guidance changes next Monday (March 8th)
with 'exercise' replaced by 'outdoor recreation' and also permits for the first time this
year meeting up outdoors with one person not from your household or bubble.

'Outdoor recreation' is not specifically defined, as it encompasses anything you can
do outdoors on your own, with a friend or in a family group, including having a picnic,
sunbathing, trainspotting, birdwatching, and so on...


Of course the big problem is that some police/rail staff/council Covid 'wardens' won't be
briefed about the change from exercise to outdoor recreation (or won't care) and may still
attempt to harass the public and/or issue fines.





MARK

 

[warwickshire]

This member off staff as mentioned at water Orton was also patrolling the platform up and down as well. And doing headcounts. He had a local Birmingham accent when he talked to his other colleague. And a op on this thread who mentioned nuneaton Also has a valid point about nuneaton. Because I can remember last year whilst travelling back from there from a hospital appointment off the fact that during July 2020 when travel restrictions lifted. Station staff where still announcing for spotters to clear the platform or get next train with a valid tkt. And that was back end July 2020 after it was safe to travel ie two weeks after clearance given.
It's a pity though isn't it However at nearby lichfield in the back page off February 2021 today's railways its been praised that there is spotter friendly stickers around providing we social distance and wear masks.
Maybe a west Midlands trains possibly nuneaton based area manager who lives locally dosent like enthusiasts. And even well post covid 19 maybe some stations that part off Warwickshire ie water Orton and nuneaton and some overbridges will be no go.

 

[Mojo]

Of course the big problem is that some police/rail staff/council Covid 'wardens' won't be
briefed about the change from exercise to outdoor recreation (or won't care) and may still
attempt to harass the public and/or issue fines.

Indeed; even before the rule changes in the first week of January, in the original Tier 4, outdoor recreation was permitted, but many police forces, cheered on by local newspapers, “dealt with” many people involved in outdoor recreation despite it being allowed.

One such example: https://twitter.com/bhx_police/status/1344674148644249600?s=21
from West Midlands Police on Twitter

Extremely cold today

but out and about ensuring the safety of @bhx_official This is us doing a vehicle check point at the old Elmdon site making sure visits are legitimate - please remember folks we are now in Tier 4, spotting is not a valid reason!

http://bit.ly/2TkdM2l

 

[warwickshire]

Absolutely correct, but as a reminder the guidance changes next Monday (March 8th)
with 'exercise' replaced by 'outdoor recreation' and also permits for the first time this
year meeting up outdoors with one person not from your household or bubble.

'Outdoor recreation' is not specifically defined, as it encompasses anything you can
do outdoors on your own, with a friend or in a family group, including having a picnic,
sunbathing, trainspotting, birdwatching, and so on...


Of course the big problem is that some police/rail staff/council Covid 'wardens' won't be
briefed about the change from exercise to outdoor recreation (or won't care) and may still
attempt to harass the public and/or issue fines.





MARK

However from the march the 29th. Wont this be even harder and impossible to enforce any more as the message drops from stay at home to stay at home iff possible and free freedom off our local areas. However with it also being half term and easter holidays. People can travel more. And With above message dropped. Surely by then means come March 29th freedom for Bridge and lineside spotting including stations with a valid tkt and masks etc..

Indeed; even before the rule changes in the first week of January, in the original Tier 4, outdoor recreation was permitted, but many police forces, cheered on by local newspapers, “dealt with” many people involved in outdoor recreation despite it being allowed.

One such example: https://twitter.com/bhx_police/status/1344674148644249600?s=21
from West Midlands Police on Twitter

Proves again the warwickshire and west Midlands corridor in that area is a massive clampdown.. not sure why all the interest though. Rather than target enthusiasts would be good to see these authorities and police target late night trains with large groups no masks and see how brave they are.

 

[Watershed]

However from the march the 29th. Wont this be even harder and impossible to enforce any more as the message drops from stay at home to stay at home iff possible and free freedom off our local areas. However with it also being half term and easter holidays. People can travel more. And With above message dropped. Surely by then means come March 29th freedom for Bridge and lineside spotting including stations with a valid tkt and masks etc..

From 8 March there will be nothing to enforce when trainspotting in a public open place (e.g. a road bridge, park etc.). However, spotters would be in a grey area doing so from station premises as these do not count as public open places (as there's no public right of way) and thus they do not fall into the automatic "outdoor recreation" reasonable excuse.

From 29 March there will be no stay at home restrictions any more (other than overnight), so it won't be a grey area spotting from station premises any more.

Of course, as always, spotters on station premises can be instructed to take a train or else leave, as railway land is private property.

 

[Mojo]

From 8 March there will be nothing to enforce when trainspotting in a public open place (e.g. a road bridge, park etc.). However, spotters would be in a grey area doing so from station premises as these do not count as public open places (as there is no public right of way) and thus they do not fall into an automatic reasonable excuse.

I'm not so sure about that. The term used in various pieces of legislation, is, and has been, "public outdoor place."

This does not mean publicly owned, but means an outdoor place to which the public have, or are permitted, access. The purpose of this is to exclude gatherings on private land such as gardens.

 

[Watershed]

I'm not so sure about that. The term used in various pieces of legislation, is, and has been, "public outdoor place."

This does not mean publicly owned, but means an outdoor place to which the public have, or are permitted, access. The purpose of this is to exclude gatherings on private land such as gardens.

When the "outdoor recreation" exemption was introduced on 13 May last year, the relevant term was "public open space", which was defined non-exhaustively:

(5) For the purposes of paragraph (2)(ba), “public open space” includes—

(a) land laid out as a public garden or used for the purpose of recreation by members of the public;

(b) land which is “open country” as defined in section 59(2) of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949, as read with section 16 of the Countryside Act 1968;

(c) land which is “access land” for the purposes of Part 1 of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 (see section 1(1) of that Act).

Therefore a station platform could conceivably fall into that definition even though not specifically listed there.

The situation was somewhat altered when the "outdoor recreation" exemption made a return on 5 November. The term was now "public outdoor place", which was defined more restrictively as:

(4) A place is a “public outdoor place” if it is an outdoor place to which the public have, or are permitted, access (whether on payment or otherwise) and includes—

(a)land laid out as a public garden or used for the purpose of recreation by members of the public;

(b)land which is “open country” as defined in section 59(2) of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949, as read with section 16 of the Countryside Act 1968;

(c)land which is “access land” for the purposes of Part 1 of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 (see section 1(1) of that Act);

(d)any highway to which the public has access;

(e)Crown land to which the public has access.

The use of the term "outdoor place" as the general qualifier means that many stations would no longer qualify - anywhere with a canopy or other roof would count as indoors due to the definition of "indoor place":

(3) A place is indoors if it would be considered to be enclosed, or substantially enclosed, for the purposes of section 2 of the Health Act 2006, under the Smoke-free (Premises and Enforcement) Regulations 2006.

For example, I think you would be hard-pushed to argue that Birmingham New Street isn't generally an "indoor place", even if the extremity of some of the platforms are roofless.

Of course this is still somewhat of a technicality, as in any case station staff etc. are perfectly entitled to tell trainspotters to travel or else leave. So if staff object (even if the spotters aren't breaking the law), they need to leave. And if they don't object, who is going to enforce any restrictions the spotters may be breaching?

 

[Ediswan]

The use of the term "outdoor place" as the general qualifier means that many stations would no longer qualify - anywhere with a canopy or other roof would count as indoors due to the definition of "indoor place":

(3) A place is indoors if it would be considered to be enclosed, or substantially enclosed, for the purposes of section 2 of the Health Act 2006, under the Smoke-free (Premises and Enforcement) Regulations 2006.

Having a roof does not by itself make a space substantially enclosed. Summarising, you need half or more of the walls as well.

So there are many station platforms which are covered, but not enclosed or substantially enclosed.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Does this definition interpretation also apply as regards on-platform smoking?

 

[221129]

Does this definition interpretation also apply as regards on-platform smoking?

No as I believe smoking is banned by the Railway Bylaws rather than the smoking ban.

 

[Watershed]

Having a roof does not by itself make a space substantially enclosed. Summarising, you need half or more of the walls as well.

So there are many station platforms which are covered, but not enclosed or substantially enclosed.

True, but it then becomes about whether there is a wall, staircase etc. at one end of the platform, and whether station buildings are considered separate premises...

So really quite a challenge to identify whether a station is (substantially) enclosed or not. Easiest to assume that stations with platform canopies are enclosed, but everywhere else is non-enclosed.

Although perhaps a bit obtuse, such an interpretation would lead to the arguably sensible conclusion whereby spotting is permitted only on stations which are sufficiently quiet as not to have a canopy, or else only beyond the canopy.

Does this definition interpretation also apply as regards on-platform smoking?

Yes - in principle only stations which are enclosed or substantially enclosed have an automatic smoking ban under the Health Act 2006.

The Railway Byelaws are what make enforceable any "no smoking" policies shown on signage. But it's not automatic - and for example Merseyrail still permit smoking on their stations' open-air platforms.

 

[Mojo]

The use of the term "outdoor place" as the general qualifier means that many stations would no longer qualify - anywhere with a canopy or other roof would count as indoors due to the definition of "indoor place":

That is not correct, most station canopies do not qualify as enclosed or partially enclosed, because this requires an amount of 50% of the sides to be enclosed.

So really quite a challenge to identify whether a station is (substantially) enclosed or not. Easiest to assume that stations with platform canopies are enclosed, but everywhere else is non-enclosed.

I disagree with your assessment of this matter, because I can think of very few platforms which have a canopy which would come under the definition of "partially enclosed" or "enclosed" and indeed would say that actually the reverse applies and that most platforms with a canopy would not count as enclosed, or substantially enclosed.

Various to how legislation was written in Spring and Autumn of last year is also not particularly helpful as these regulations were repealed some months ago. The definition as written for the original Tier 4 Regulations, which are still in force, but with the relevant paragraph repealed, are still online here and may be more helpful:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1611/pdfs/uksi_20201611_en.pdf

In any case, it is irrelevant, because the use of the Smoke-free regulations to determine whether a place is indoors or outdoors only has only ever applied to gatherings and face coverings and not for the purpose of determining where exercise or outdoor recreation may occur, as "public outdoor place" for the purpose of recreation has always been interpreted separately.

Further, neither Water Orton or Coleshill Pky have canopies on the platform, only shelters (which looking at them would class as "partially enclosed," so not permissible for a gathering of more than 2 who don't live together).

 

[peteb]

So what's the rules if you do have a genuine reason for travel, (eg: to get to or from work or a medical appointment by train), but break your journey en-route at a station with limited stopping services, say every two hours, and elect to wait there with a valid ticket to continue your journey? Could you be moved on then? Assume wearing mask as necessary.

 

[Watershed]

So what's the rules if you do have a genuine reason for travel, (eg: to get to or from work or a medical appointment by train), but break your journey en-route at a station with limited stopping services, say every two hours, and elect to wait there with a valid ticket to continue your journey? Could you be moved on then? Assume wearing mask as necessary.

No need for a break of journey for that possibility to arise - could simply be a station with limited service and you've just missed a service.

Perfectly reasonable to wait at the station if you're simply biding your time until your train. Again, railway property is private property so in theory you could be asked to leave (in spite of holding a ticket - you'd be able to claim damages if it came to it).

In practice spotters will usually be clearly distinguishable from 'genuine' passengers and so it's not really a problem.

 

[peteb]

No need for a break of journey for that possibility to arise - could simply be a station with limited service and you've just missed a service.

Perfectly reasonable to wait at the station if you're simply biding your time until your train. Again, railway property is private property so in theory you could be asked to leave (in spite of holding a ticket - you'd be able to claim damages if it came to it).

In practice spotters will usually be clearly distinguishable from 'genuine' passengers and so it's not really a problem.

Ah, I'll leave my thermos , addidas bag and large SLR at home next time I travel then.......

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Ah, I'll leave my thermos , adidas bag and large SLR at home next time I travel then.......

Similarly your camera tripod, spiral bound notebook and well chewed biro.

 

[P Binnersley]

The current definition of an outdoor place is

(4) A place is a public outdoor place for the purposes of this paragraph if it is a public outdoor place other than a fairground or funfair and—

(a)no payment is required by any member of the public to access that place, or

(b)the place falls within one of the following categories—

F11(i). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

(ii)botanical gardens,

(iii)gardens or grounds of a castle, stately home, historic house or other heritage site.

Even if a place has a roof over part of it, you are outdoors if you are not under the roof.